San Joaquin Morning Express not doing too well

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calwatch

calwatch

Lead Service Attendant
Joined
Nov 28, 2010
Messages
428
About 50 passengers on weekdays, half that on weekends.

http://sjjpa.com/getattachment/Home/SJJPA-Board-Packet-July-27,-2018-(4).pdf

After a strong first day/inaugural event, ridership on the Morning Express began very low, but has seen steady growth over the course of the last two months since the service began in early May. On the tenth week of service, the Morning Express (Train #701 – Monday – Friday excluding holidays) carried 259 passengers (averaging 51.8 passengers/day).

[...]

Weekend/Holiday Ridership: Weekend and holiday ridership has been disappointing with Sundays in particular seeing very low ridership numbers. 78% of weekend ridership originates in Fresno with the large majority of those riders beginning their trip in Southern California. San Joaquin Valley residents have not seen the need to take an early train to Sacramento on the weekends.

They plan on retiming the weekend train and ending train 704 in Fresno rather than 718, to allow for more rest time.
 
Well if they follow through with running the San Joaquin on the CAHSR valley section being built right now until they can tunnel to SF and LA as mentioned here: https://www.fresnobee.com/latest-news/article213920609.htmlit should be a game changer for the San Joaquin. I do agree, that whatever section is completed in the valley should be used ASAP without waiting for the full connection to be built to SF and LA. I'm wondering how hard it would be to run a hybrid model like they do with the TGV right now using the chargers.
 
From my understanding, when the initial segment opens, it won't be electrified from day one. So basically it will be existing equipment being run at its highest speed.

I guess electification will only make sense in the Central Valley once the Caltrain corridor is connected.
 
cirdan said:
From my understanding, when the initial segment opens, it won't be electrified from day one. So basically it will be existing equipment being run at its highest speed.

I guess electification will only make sense in the Central Valley once the Caltrain corridor is connected.
Click to expand...
But I wonder how the signaling will be handled. Doesn't the law still say that there needs to be in cab signaling to go faster than 79mph? Not sure if the chargers were delivered with such features.
 
seat38a said:
cirdan said:
From my understanding, when the initial segment opens, it won't be electrified from day one. So basically it will be existing equipment being run at its highest speed.

I guess electification will only make sense in the Central Valley once the Caltrain corridor is connected.
Click to expand...
But I wonder how the signaling will be handled. Doesn't the law still say that there needs to be in cab signaling to go faster than 79mph? Not sure if the chargers were delivered with such features.
Click to expand...
They already need PTC, so I suppose it's a matter of whether both systems are interoperable?
 
seat38a said:
chrsjrcj said:
What is it that makes this train an express? Looking at the schedule, it makes all the normal stops with the same running time as other trains.
Click to expand...
Starting from Fresno and not from Bakersfield. All trains ran the full length of the route before the Fresno train started.
Click to expand...

That makes it a shorter route. But it doesn't make it an "express" train.

What makes it an "express" is that it operates directly to Sacramento. Previously, the first n/b trip of the morning required a bus connection to get to SAC. Obviously the all-rail trip is faster. But from a rail-operations standpoint, the train doesn't operate as an "express" train in the sense of skipping station stops.
 
fairviewroad said:
seat38a said:
chrsjrcj said:
What is it that makes this train an express? Looking at the schedule, it makes all the normal stops with the same running time as other trains.
Click to expand...
Starting from Fresno and not from Bakersfield. All trains ran the full length of the route before the Fresno train started.
Click to expand...

That makes it a shorter route. But it doesn't make it an "express" train.

What makes it an "express" is that it operates directly to Sacramento. Previously, the first n/b trip of the morning required a bus connection to get to SAC. Obviously the all-rail trip is faster. But from a rail-operations standpoint, the train doesn't operate as an "express" train in the sense of skipping station stops.
Click to expand...
"Express" is really used loosely these days. Really nothing more than a marketing crap like the "fresh and contemporary." From what I have read, the Surfliner tried a Express service between LAUS and San Diego which turned out to be a total failure and it was scrapped. Ridership was dismal without carrying passengers who are traveling to the smaller intermediate stops. SJJPA probably did a little research or two into the past failures of skipping stops.
 
Thirdrail7 said:
What kind of numbers did they project?
Click to expand...
Personally I think if they want to attract business travelers on this route, then they are going to have to add business class like on the Surfliner on top of the number 1 item of on time performance. Having taken the San Joaquin on multiple occasions, it really can be a s*&^ show trying to find a seat on the train even during the reserved seat era. Now with the change to unreserved, I can only imagine how much worse it has gotten. Hour+ wait in line for food and drink at the cafe is not unheard of on this train.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
seat38a said:
"Express" is really used loosely these days. Really nothing more than a marketing crap like the "fresh and contemporary." From what I have read, the Surfliner tried a Express service between LAUS and San Diego which turned out to be a total failure and it was scrapped. Ridership was dismal without carrying passengers who are traveling to the smaller intermediate stops. SJJPA probably did a little research or two into the past failures of skipping stops.
Click to expand...
Living in San Diego I was interested in the “express” Pacific Surfliner when they ran it in 2011. It was a terribly designed trial by any means. They only made one “express” train, northbound only from SAN-LAX, departing 7am Monday-Friday with an arrival at LAUS at 9:30 (20-30 minutes off of the normal times), and made people pay a premium to ride it. They found that ridership was down compared to an all-stops train it replaced, and the train that left an hour later had increased ridership that made up for the loss on the express. Basically they determined that people were willing to save money by departing an hour later an served all stops even if it was 20 minutes slower than the express option on the entire route.

I wish they would try an express option again but with something like two trains each direction per day (one morning, one afternoon) with only 4-5 intermediate stops (Fullerton, Anaheim, Irvine, Oceanside, Solana Beach?) instead of the 11 possible stops. If LOSSAN can guarantee with priority a two-hour run it could be worth a small premium on a ticket to use it.

seat38a said:
Personally I think if they want to attract business travelers on this route, then they are going to have to add business class like on the Surfliner on top of the number 1 item of on time performance. Having taken the San Joaquin on multiple occasions, it really can be a s*&^ show trying to find a seat on the train even during the reserved seat era. Now with the change to unreserved, I can only imagine how much worse it has gotten. Hour+ wait in line for food and drink at the cafe is not unheard of on this train.
Click to expand...
This is what surprised me on the San Joaquins; no business class for a route of that length. Is it the lack of travelers that will pay for business class? I imagine those with the money to spend probably drive it if they don’t have to go often.
 
allanorn said:
seat38a said:
"Express" is really used loosely these days. Really nothing more than a marketing crap like the "fresh and contemporary." From what I have read, the Surfliner tried a Express service between LAUS and San Diego which turned out to be a total failure and it was scrapped. Ridership was dismal without carrying passengers who are traveling to the smaller intermediate stops. SJJPA probably did a little research or two into the past failures of skipping stops.
Click to expand...
Living in San Diego I was interested in the “express” Pacific Surfliner when they ran it in 2011. It was a terribly designed trial by any means. They only made one “express” train, northbound only from SAN-LAX, departing 7am Monday-Friday with an arrival at LAUS at 9:30 (20-30 minutes off of the normal times), and made people pay a premium to ride it. They found that ridership was down compared to an all-stops train it replaced, and the train that left an hour later had increased ridership that made up for the loss on the express. Basically they determined that people were willing to save money by departing an hour later an served all stops even if it was 20 minutes slower than the express option on the entire route.

I wish they would try an express option again but with something like two trains each direction per day (one morning, one afternoon) with only 4-5 intermediate stops (Fullerton, Anaheim, Irvine, Oceanside, Solana Beach?) instead of the 11 possible stops. If LOSSAN can guarantee with priority a two-hour run it could be worth a small premium on a ticket to use it.

seat38a said:
Personally I think if they want to attract business travelers on this route, then they are going to have to add business class like on the Surfliner on top of the number 1 item of on time performance. Having taken the San Joaquin on multiple occasions, it really can be a s*&^ show trying to find a seat on the train even during the reserved seat era. Now with the change to unreserved, I can only imagine how much worse it has gotten. Hour+ wait in line for food and drink at the cafe is not unheard of on this train.
Click to expand...
This is what surprised me on the San Joaquins; no business class for a route of that length. Is it the lack of travelers that will pay for business class? I imagine those with the money to spend probably drive it if they don’t have to go often.
Click to expand...
Any northbound express needs to get into LAUS way before 9AM. That is the only way to really get business people to use the service and or pay a higher fare. If the experiment had the train arrive into LAUS at 9:30AM, I can see why no one took it and the later train filled up. Generally speaking, work starts at 9AM not 9:30AM.
 
seat38a said:
Any northbound express needs to get into LAUS way before 9AM. That is the only way to really get business people to use the service and or pay a higher fare. If the experiment had the train arrive into LAUS at 9:30AM, I can see why no one took it and the later train filled up. Generally speaking, work starts at 9AM not 9:30AM.
Click to expand...
Found a 2012 timetable: https://juckins.net/amtrak_timetables/archive/timetables_Pacific_Surfliner_CA_Coastal_Services_20110715.pdf

Left at 7:05am, scheduled 9:33am arrival. Only four stops (Solana Beach, Oceanside, Irvine, Anaheim). No southbound express.

For an 8am arrival into LAUS so people have a chance of making it into work by 9, you’d probably have to have the train leave Santa Fe Depot at 5:45am, which likely puts a relatively empty train into the peak Metrolink service in Orange County. Then you’re looking at a three-hour ride home because no southbound express train. And any delays in the single-tracked areas will make the schedule useless.
 
allanorn said:
seat38a said:
"Express" is really used loosely these days. Really nothing more than a marketing crap like the "fresh and contemporary." From what I have read, the Surfliner tried a Express service between LAUS and San Diego which turned out to be a total failure and it was scrapped. Ridership was dismal without carrying passengers who are traveling to the smaller intermediate stops. SJJPA probably did a little research or two into the past failures of skipping stops.
Click to expand...
Living in San Diego I was interested in the “express” Pacific Surfliner when they ran it in 2011. It was a terribly designed trial by any means. They only made one “express” train, northbound only from SAN-LAX, departing 7am Monday-Friday with an arrival at LAUS at 9:30 (20-30 minutes off of the normal times), and made people pay a premium to ride it. They found that ridership was down compared to an all-stops train it replaced, and the train that left an hour later had increased ridership that made up for the loss on the express. Basically they determined that people were willing to save money by departing an hour later an served all stops even if it was 20 minutes slower than the express option on the entire route.

I wish they would try an express option again but with something like two trains each direction per day (one morning, one afternoon) with only 4-5 intermediate stops (Fullerton, Anaheim, Irvine, Oceanside, Solana Beach?) instead of the 11 possible stops. If LOSSAN can guarantee with priority a two-hour run it could be worth a small premium on a ticket to use it.

seat38a said:
Personally I think if they want to attract business travelers on this route, then they are going to have to add business class like on the Surfliner on top of the number 1 item of on time performance. Having taken the San Joaquin on multiple occasions, it really can be a s*&^ show trying to find a seat on the train even during the reserved seat era. Now with the change to unreserved, I can only imagine how much worse it has gotten. Hour+ wait in line for food and drink at the cafe is not unheard of on this train.
Click to expand...
This is what surprised me on the San Joaquins; no business class for a route of that length. Is it the lack of travelers that will pay for business class? I imagine those with the money to spend probably drive it if they don’t have to go often.
Click to expand...
They've talked about business class but have to get the market for it. I think you could do half a car with a "modular" business class that would just give you a drink and reserved seating, but no additional pitch. Or if they get the new equipment you could reset the seats to provide some additional legroom, not that the train is lacking it now.
 

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