Silver Meteor #97 Between New York and Washington

Recently, this train seems to be more "late" than on time when it arrives in Washington. it's my understanding that Amtrak controls/owns the right of way between New York and Washington. Why are these delays taking place?

Based on what I have seen, the delays are due to general delays (trespasser incidents, mechanical, etc.) on the NEC and weather. I was on 97 on Saturday and boarded in WAS. It was on time and I arrived in WPK early.

Travel early in July. Late out of NYC, late out of Washington DC. 4 hours late at Orlando.

The issue for us was extra cars deadheading so we could not fit in the NYP station. The cars were on the front. They started boarding just a minute or two before the departure time.

At Washington DC the extra cars were removed with the motor. However another three cars were add to the rear of the train causing more delays.

Return trip was within 30 min of posted arrival time to NYP. Interesting had three cars deadheading back to NYP. Same type of cars, did not check the numbers.

Just-Thinking-51 said:

Travel early in July. Late out of NYC, late out of Washington DC. 4 hours late at Orlando.

The issue for us was extra cars deadheading so we could not fit in the NYP station. The cars were on the front. They started boarding just a minute or two before the departure time.

At Washington DC the extra cars were removed with the motor. However another three cars were add to the rear of the train causing more delays.

Return trip was within 30 min of posted arrival time to NYP. Interesting had three cars deadheading back to NYP. Same type of cars, did not check the numbers.

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Those may be "regional" coach cars since some regionals were cut due to the track work. They are selling coach seats between NYP and WAS on some/all of the LD's for this reason.

One thing to keep in mind with the NEC is that trains are powered by overhead caternary. When the heat and humidity comes out to play this time of year the electric units will sometimes shut down. Causing a mess. Also one thing to keep in mind is that it's track work season and Amtrak is doing major track work this year. ThirdRail can testify to what's going on specifically. But the entire corridor has been subject to delays this year. No trains have been immune.

There are a lot of things that hamper 97's performance on the NEC. We've discussed it in the past. However, you can take this tidbit:

Acela150 said:

Also one thing to keep in mind is that it's track work season and Amtrak is doing major track work this year. ThirdRail can testify to what's going on specifically. But the entire corridor has been subject to delays this year. No trains have been immune.

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add it to this tidbit:

Thirdrail7 said:

This may drive things off topic, but I will address some of it.

Anderson said:

Looking through ASMAD, the Meteor seems to have a problem at NYP. Basically, the train's average delay out of NYP for the last six months is about 17 minutes. Granted, this is skewed by some major delays...but given that none of the LD trains out of NYP do a same-day turn, this really should not be happening unless there's a bona fide emergency. The fact that 19, 49, 51, 89, and 91 all make it out without gross delays (the average is <5 minutes for all the others) means that there's a problem on Amtrak's end.

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There are a couple of major things about 97 that often lead to delays. The major problem with initial terminal delay is equipment troubles. It is the last train to get serviced and the first train to get robbed. I've explained it briefly in the past:

I'm sorry to divert from teh topic but I feel this needs to be addressed. Jis, while you are entitled to your opinion, you are not entitled to your own facts. The reality of the situation is SSYD movements (or in your opinion, lack thereof) has nothing to do with laziness. It is a byproduct of the cuts in mechanical department personnel. If 98 manages to arrive on time, the train is inspected. If everything is fine, that is good. If something has to come out for repairs, pm , etc, there is no one to work on the equipment until the next morning. Same thing goes for 92, 20 and 48. This is because they eliminated the entire overnight shift devoted to the long hauls (51 is made up during the day) while the remaining overnight crews deal with the regional and day trippers. Now, daylight has to scramble to make repairs and 97 is last out, so it is the first train to lose equipment if (for example) 91 is short a dining car and the last train to get worked. If repairs aren't forthcoming (or their is a shortage of equipment), the next move is to wait for PD98 or PD20 to arrive.

Such was the case today. SSYD has been short views and they moved up equipment leaving 97 without views. 98 arrives at 143pm and 20 is completely behind the 8 ball, so obviously 97 is going to take a hit. This problem is exacerbated by the fact that it is Wednesday, which means 51 (which along with 50 operates with 2 views) was not available to fill in.

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The aforementioned trains that leave without gross delay often come at 97's expense. Once it gets on the road, it has a very slim slot on the NEC. It is routinely overtaken by an Acela that often runs late from Metro-North Territory. Once it is brushed aside, it has an 8 minute window at Baltimore. If it is not ready to depart at 626pm, it will end up behind a MARC train and lose more time. It snowballs.

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and add delays en route and you can see what happens. 97 is extremely susceptible to extra dwell in the stations. One day, it sat in PHL for 12 minutes as it loaded passengers that needed extra assistance. By that time, the Acela closed in and since 97 runs slower than even some of the MARC trains at this point, it was swept aside for overtakes. By the time it got to Baltimore, it landed behind the MARC train and with all of the construction and congestion between BAL-WAS, it is going to follow the train for the duration.

Those may be "regional" coach cars since some regionals were cut due to the track work. They are selling coach seats between NYP and WAS on some/all of the LD's for this reason.

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The deadhead equipment between NYC to Washington DC was 2 bagged cars. The deadheading equipment south of Washington DC was one sleeper, one cafe, one coach. The two badge cars were cause the problem in NYC as we need a long platform, but just end hanging out over the track switch area.

Since #97 works baggage and has 5 coaches during the summer, it has longer dwell times than the regional and Acela trains. But dwell times exceeding 4 minutes could be minimized if the station announcers did what the PRR "ushers" did - announce before the train's arrival the car locations in stations like Newark, Baltimore and Philadelphia so that the passengers would be lined up adjacent to the correct car for boarding. In the 1960s I used to see the SILVER METEOR and EAST/WEST COAST CHAMPION trains with 18-19 cars routinely get thru Newark with 3-4 min dwell time (unless the baggage dorm was taking on remains).

Andy

twropr said:

Since #97 works baggage and has 5 coaches during the summer, it has longer dwell times than the regional and Acela trains. But dwell times exceeding 4 minutes could be minimized if the station announcers did what the PRR "ushers" did - announce before the train's arrival the car locations in stations like Newark, Baltimore and Philadelphia so that the passengers would be lined up adjacent to the correct car for boarding. In the 1960s I used to see the SILVER METEOR and EAST/WEST COAST CHAMPION trains with 18-19 cars routinely get thru Newark with 3-4 min dwell time (unless the baggage dorm was taking on remains).

Andy

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There is no excuse. Shinkansen can alight and board typically in less than one minute, up to 1,600 people in around 5.
Man, would I love to see a regularly scheduled 19 car train today!!

VentureForth,

The Shinkansen serves mostly people who are acclimated to the need to embark as quickly and massively as possible. Different culture than what Amtrak serves.

Many thanks to all who replied to my query. Maybe by my Silver Meteor journey in December from Washington, its on time arrival and departure from that station will be better.

I have not taken the Silver Meteor in a few years but I remember (at Trenton, at least) either 1) a station employee going up and down track 4 asking passengers for their destination and coach/sleeper status, and telling them where to stand, or 2) a manual announcement over the PA about where to stand. Nevertheless someone would always be running down the platform to find the proper door, but if you were there in advance and stayed alert, it was generally easy to get situated before the train arrived (and so easy to board).

It is time for the busy stations to post car location panels that the agents could update before arrival of train. Oh wait that would add an extra expense for IT to notify agents how the train is aligned. The European system works well although almost all trains are fixed consist.

west point said:

It is time for the busy stations to post car location panels that the agents could update before arrival of train. Oh wait that would add an extra expense for IT to notify agents how the train is aligned. The European system works well although almost all trains are fixed consist.

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Not all stations have that capability. And spotting trains is at the discretion of the Conductor and Engineer. It may not be the same every time.

Brightline seems to do a good job at spotting the doors with platform markings for each door. Now if only more passengers would realize what coach they were in and line up at the appropriate location...

chrsjrcj said:

Brightline seems to do a good job at spotting the doors with platform markings for each door. Now if only more passengers would realize what coach they were in and line up at the appropriate location...

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Americans are not used to the concept of fixed consists with absolutely predictable location of each car on the platform. The latter is possible even with non-fixed consists and adequate dynamic electronic signage on the platform, or human staff help. They are more used to, what appears to an infrequent rider as haphazard collection of cars often with platforms too short for the train requiring multiple spotting and what not.
It is also unusual for any indication on the platform of the location of cars, though at many places station staff, a dying breed, can and do inform passengers to move to various location markers based on their accommodation.

In India they have car id electronic signs at all significant stations which light up with car id that will be at each car location, a little before the train arrives, so that passengers can move to where their car, as indicated on their ticket/e-ticket, will platform.

Chicken and egg. Can't change the culture if you don't change the product.

For example:

Acela150 said:

Not all stations have that capability. And spotting trains is at the discretion of the Conductor and Engineer. It may not be the same every time.

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Why not? Can't a placard be placed along the track showing where to spot the train? Most trains in Japan are operated manually, and probably 1/2 the US light rail systems are that way. Engineers stop within inches every day of where they are supposed to.

VentureForth said:

Chicken and egg. Can't change the culture if you don't change the product.

For example:

Acela150 said:

Not all stations have that capability. And spotting trains is at the discretion of the Conductor and Engineer. It may not be the same every time.

Click to expand...

Why not? Can't a placard be placed along the track showing where to spot the train? Most trains in Japan are operated manually, and probably 1/2 the US light rail systems are that way. Engineers stop within inches every day of where they are supposed to.

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I can't speak for Japan, but light rail vehicles typically have fixed consists. Amtrak (and various railroads around the country) not only vary in make up, they can vary in length due to equipment utilized They started shying away from fixed, timetable identified station markers for that very reason. They become fixed signals (by rule) and are not easily overridden. That perfect spot from yesterday may be a disaster today since the train is operating backwards. Having a spot for a certain part of the train to remain on the platform may not work when you have a train like the Lake Shore, which will operate with two of the new diners deadheading in the consist, may have an additional engine (or two) or the cafe car is not the forth car.

Since operations vary (is there an interlocking at the end of this station or is the whole platform in service,) they allow for flexibility.

Furthermore, I'm guessing Twropr hasn't been on the NEC portion of the Meteor since the 60's. Otherwise, he'd know that they do have general location signs for the trains(ex: coaches board locations c-f, sleepers a-b) and fixed locations (that notify which end has the club car and first class car vs coach) for the one train that has a fixed consist. They are used as guidelines since as previously mentioned, the sleepers may be on the rear end (ex -e-f and coaches are now a-d.)

They also have station personnel on the platform to direct and assist loading. However, if you have 5 wheelchair passengers at one stop (which was was the case with the 12 minute delay at PHL that led to the loss of slot), it will take time to ramp them on and assist each of them to their seat.

Thirdrail7 said:

VentureForth said:

Chicken and egg. Can't change the culture if you don't change the product.

For example:

Acela150 said:

Not all stations have that capability. And spotting trains is at the discretion of the Conductor and Engineer. It may not be the same every time.

Click to expand...

Why not? Can't a placard be placed along the track showing where to spot the train? Most trains in Japan are operated manually, and probably 1/2 the US light rail systems are that way. Engineers stop within inches every day of where they are supposed to.

Click to expand...

I can't speak for Japan, but light rail vehicles typically have fixed consists. Amtrak (and various railroads around the country) not only vary in make up, they can vary in length due to equipment utilized They started shying away from fixed, timetable identified station markers for that very reason. They become fixed signals (by rule) and are not easily overridden. That perfect spot from yesterday may be a disaster today since the train is operating backwards. Having a spot for a certain part of the train to remain on the platform may not work when you have a train like the Lake Shore, which will operate with two of the new diners deadheading in the consist, may have an additional engine (or two) or the cafe car is not the forth car.

Since operations vary (is there an interlocking at the end of this station or is the whole platform in service,) they allow for flexibility.

Furthermore, I'm guessing Twropr hasn't been on the NEC portion of the Meteor since the 60's. Otherwise, he'd know that they do have general location signs for the trains(ex: coaches board locations c-f, sleepers a-b) and fixed locations (that notify which end has the club car and first class car vs coach) for the one train that has a fixed consist. They are used as guidelines since as previously mentioned, the sleepers may be on the rear end (ex -e-f and coaches are now a-d.)

They also have station personnel on the platform to direct and assist loading. However, if you have 5 wheelchair passengers at one stop (which was was the case with the 12 minute delay at PHL that led to the loss of slot), it will take time to ramp them on and assist each of them to their seat.

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Yep, my train this morning was "short" as the quiet car was forward of where the sign said it would be.

Thirdrail7. Must respectively disagree . However it would require Amtrak's IT to program a computer properly. The Amtrak IT capability to do this is very suspect.

1. You start by having every station including unmanned stations to have letter locations placarded on the platforms. Short platforms might even have more than 1 letter.

2. Next every train's actual consist for that day from loco to end is entered into the computer. As well any enroute changes are entered into the computer.

3. Conductor(s) could give car each passenger needed to board. That car would be translated into a letter position for the car.

3. The passengers would get a notice say 30 minutes before arrival telling them which letter position to meet their train at unmanned stations. As well some manned stations could have boarding annunciators

4. Stopping locations for the loco are given to the engineer ( Note there may be many locations beyond end of platform to designate stopping locations for front end deadheading equipment.) Conductors could even tell engineer what location comes from the computer ? .

5. Special circumstance stations could have their stopping locations entered as well + special problems.

6. Of course there will be a few problem stations from time to time but conductors certainly can adapt..

west point said:

Thirdrail7. Must respectively disagree . However it would require Amtrak's IT to program a computer properly. The Amtrak IT capability to do this is very suspect.

1. You start by having every station including unmanned stations to have letter locations placarded on the platforms. Short platforms might even have more than 1 letter.

2. Next every train's actual consist for that day from loco to end is entered into the computer. As well any enroute changes are entered into the computer.

3. Conductor(s) could give car each passenger needed to board. That car would be translated into a letter position for the car.

3. The passengers would get a notice say 30 minutes before arrival telling them which letter position to meet their train at unmanned stations. As well some manned stations could have boarding annunciators

4. Stopping locations for the loco are given to the engineer ( Note there may be many locations beyond end of platform to designate stopping locations for front end deadheading equipment.) Conductors could even tell engineer what location comes from the computer ? .

5. Special circumstance stations could have their stopping locations entered as well + special problems.

6. Of course there will be a few problem stations from time to time but conductors certainly can adapt..

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So, basically you said above is what happens everyday, without a letters or constantly updating computer.

The crew gets their manifest (which has the consist that was supposed to appear.)

They check it against the actual train (in case the train is not made up according to the plan)

They tell the engineer "spot the train here or there" based upon prevailing conditions (some conductors actually spot their trains according to volume...pull long because the seats are in this section of the train front or stop short because there is a group boarding.)

People board.

Just as mentioned with the boarding locations listed above because as mentioned, the major stations that 97 utilizes on the NEC has these boarding locations.

I do remember a funny story with a group of signs though. There were trains that were supposed to combine and become one train. They had engine spot signs based upon where the first class cars are located. However, sometimes the train wouldn't combine. Usually, it wasn't a big deal but every now and then, the "little guy" (usually 2 or 3 cars maximum) would run without the big guy (usually 5 to 8 additional cars). When that happened, the crews would pull this two car train into the spot as instructed by the signs (which are fixed signals according to the timetable). Naturally, the passengers were NOWHERE near the train since most of the train was missing. However, the crew was governed by rules to comply with the station stop markers (which could only be overruled by removing the instruction from service) and that required paperwork.

They finally started taking them down.

Thirdrail7 Am proposing that this be expanded system wide. Most important is notifying passengers waiting at unmanned stations. Naturally there will glitches but if conductor can over ride for some situations then OTP should improve. If a 15 stop LD train can save 2 minutes at each stop ( we know can't happen on a complete route ) that could save 30 minutes{ Say save average of 2 minutes.

Although it would be great if Amtrak could devise a means to advise passengers of where to stand to board a specific (seat assigned? car assigned? what about painted on RR car number vs rarely set correctly in a 'window' train #/car # in 4 digits, then things really get screwy if the train splits, ie, 'train' #421 to train #1, etc) I think any attempt to do so is doomed to failure.

First and foremost is that even 'regular' NEC riders don't appear to have even a clue about which end is which while waiting for a train. Case in point...NYP and PHL. Knowing that business class is the last car and the quiet car next to last, there are always passengers that end up wandering through a number of cars to get to BC or QC, or to 'regular' coach seating after they've boarded the quiet car, for example. Add to that the situation at NYP, there's absolutely no way to get passengers to the platform before train arrival and have them figure out where to go with passengers off/on NJT on the same platform and a 'mob' getting off the NEC train at NYP. At 1 square foot of space per passenger, there isn't enough room on the platform to hold that many passengers all at once! PLUS luggage/red caps/baby strollers, etc. And just to keep things interesting, although I am an infrequent Acela passenger, there seems to be NO consistency of which end is first class! Lately, I've heard it announced over the loud speakers on the platform that first class is the east end of the train, or west end, but how many passengers know that 'east' is the Boston end and 'west' the Washington end?

I've also witnessed many Metro North passengers 'discovering' they're in the quiet car by mistake when someone tells them to shut up. On Metro North, it seems to be 'hit and miss' to this MA resident if there even IS a quiet car on a train and what end is it on. And for the occasional MN passenger that I am, knowing which car does or does not 'platform' at some of the stations is only discovered if the conductor mentions it while taking my ticket or I can understand the on board speakers approaching that station (with 2 hearing aids, it all comes out as mumble mumble, mumble to me!)

And, of course, what about if there's a 'missing' car from the normal consist? Then what? A little over 3 weeks ago, train #141 from Springfield was missing the business class car! I have no idea where they put the 40 or so passengers that are usually in that car by the time we reach NYP. And winter consist reductions? Holiday season additions? And what about 'extra' cars while NYP is under repair and a couple of trains annulled for the summer? NOW try to figure out a way to communicate to the boarding passengers, experienced and not, even first timers, where they should stand to get on their car?

And lastly...how does one make the passengers actually READ the electronic signs along the platform? Throw in that it took several YEARS for the station list for train 148 (WAS-SPG) to scroll by in the correct sequence! They've been wrong at WAS, Baltimore, and even at NHV (which is Metro North run) so long, I made it a point to read the list to ensure its accuracy - just for laughs! Connecticut stations get soooo mixed up!

So, if Amtrak IT staff can't get station sequence right, they're supposed to accurately get car locations to display properly? As a former mainframe computer geek that retired 17 years ago and when forced to go back to work, nobody wanted an old geezer, I look at the Amtrak 'help wanted' listings just for kicks. I am absolutely floored by the number of IT positions that are open. They must have a turnover rate of 50% or more, in my opinion. What that means is that nobody knows 'how the system works'. Nor do they know how the pieces 'fit', or that 'system A feeds system B', etc. It forces any changes to be implemented to be very minimal so as to not 'break' something else in the process...which is common while making changes to programs you've never seen before.

Hard to believe it's been more than 40 years already, I walked into such an environment on a contract project. They brought in 8-9 contractors from the company I worked for strictly to keep their computer systems 'up and running'. They were down to only 2-3 of their own IT employees still there when they used to have 8-10. We'd go in on 2nd shift (after working 1st shift at other clients), and be given core dumps (bomb outs, blue screens in Windows terms) from programs we'd never seen before and expected to quickly figure out the problem and correct it. Usually it was bad data 'going in' so we'd add in a check for non-numeric info in a numeric field and use zero if it was bad. We didn't have time to pinpoint the cause...only fix the symptom as the 'job' that had been running to that point was now 8-16 hours behind schedule. Regretably, I suspect Amtrak IT staff is in the same boat. It pretty much explains why my monthly AGR statement comes more than 2 weeks after the start of the next month and doesn't include any points for trips taken from the last week or so of that month to the current day.

Your post got me to thinking of how old is Amtrak's computer system...I still have my "Spike" (original name for Arrow), owner's manual in my archives...I'm sure they've done lots of updates, but wonder if the basic system is still the same?

Very rarely do I praise TRE for anything, but I will say that Trenton does still have the same helpful system that Heading North (post #12) mentioned seeing a few years ago.

I am often commuting through there when the Meteor comes in, and they always announce the boarding locations over the loudspeaker, way before the train arrives, and you can hear it both in the station and on the platform. Plus they usually have an Amtrak agent on the platform making sure people are at the right location. They have a list with them, and make sure everyone on their list is accounted for.

Even the "regular" trains get announcements. They announce where the Quiet Car and the Business Car are on the regionals, for example.

The Palmetto is the most confusing--if you're going south of DC, you board at one location, DC or farther north, another location, and the Business Car and Quiet Car, other locations, all of which are announced--they practically run through the whole alphabet of boarding locations. I think if you are going to Savannah and want the Quiet Car, you are out of luck!