To be or not to be: Amtrak A/C Edition

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NSC1109

OBS Chief
Joined
Aug 14, 2016
Messages
544
Location
MI
(I haven’t really posted on here in a long time (until recently) and as a result I hadn’t searched here for advice on my future. I saw the thread about someone wanting to start working for the railroad and it sort of jump-started my memory. So thanks, guy!)

I’m currently in college studying Integrated Supply Management. Essentially, it’s a cross between purchasing, logistics, and operations management. A person with such a degree can do a lot from buying parts for Ford to managing the logistics for a delivery company. However, I don’t plan on doing either of those things. My goal is to work for Amtrak.

I’m hoping to start out as an A/C. One of the things I like about their corporate structure is that their trainmasters have to have experience as a conductor, they can’t just be “qualified” like many freight railroads (to my knowledge). This gives the opportunity to kill two birds with one stone: fulfill a lifelong dream of actually working on a train crew, and giving me the ground-up experience that makes a good manager.

After being an A/C, I was hoping to become an engineer, to give me experience on that side of the operation as well, and then apply for management. Still a bit of a toss up between road foreman and trainmaster, but trainmaster is ahead right now, as it aligns with my career goals the best.

After getting into management, it’s a bit blurry. I’m not sure where to go from a trainmaster position. Some of you have probably read my post in “what would you add?”, and I hope to make many of those things a reality, but as to actually getting into a position to do that..not sure if I’ll be able to get there (as I have no clue what it would be).

So..that’s my plan. I could really use some advice on how to prepare myself for a career in railroading and what I could expect (i.e., how the extra board works) as well as some feedback on how I’ve laid this out.

Am I making a good choice? Should I be going about this differently? Stuff like that.

Thanks!
 
If Acela 150's excellent post in the 'Engineer' thread did not scare you off...perhaps you should consider it.
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If Acela 150's excellent post in the 'Engineer' thread did not scare you off...perhaps you should consider it.
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I knew a lot of that when I really starting looking at a career in the rail industry...and it definitely beats an office job in my book. But I suppose the only way to know is trying it.
 
If Acela 150's excellent post in the 'Engineer' thread did not scare you off...perhaps you should consider it.
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HA! Thanks. I don't sugarcoat things. Or at least I try not to.

I hope there is no "student loan" involved!
Why? It’s the only way some of us can afford college.
And the sad part is paying off those loans is a well insert choice word here....
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For the OP.. Trainmasters don't get a good rep these days cause a majority of them have never performed the work of a Conductor or Engineer. Personally I'd stick with Train and Engine service.
 
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NSC1109, all the best to you and your goals as you seem like a smart and ambitious young person. I do hope with that, you see the wisdom in trying to find something with better working conditions than the railroad industry. Your future spouse and children will thank you even if you don't realize the long term ill consequences of working nights and weekends right now.

Also too, I totally understand the desire to work on a train crew, but you are mistaken if you think that working a little bit in each of the crafts and then going management will make you a good manager.

Are you not aware of the hostile relationship that labor and management have had on the railroads since time began? If you knew how railroad management treats people, you would not have a desire to get into that field. At least I would hope not
 
I’m hoping to start out as an A/C. One of the things I like about their corporate structure is that their trainmasters have to have experience as a conductor, they can’t just be “qualified” like many freight railroads (to my knowledge).
Nothing could be further from the truth. A great deal of the trainmasters were never conductors. Indeed, with the current management team, it may even be a detriment to your career path.

After being an A/C, I was hoping to become an engineer, to give me experience on that side of the operation as well, and then apply for management. Still a bit of a toss up between road foreman and trainmaster, but trainmaster is ahead right now, as it aligns with my career goals the best.

After getting into management, it’s a bit blurry. I’m not sure where to go from a trainmaster position. Some of you have probably read my post in “what would you add?”, and I hope to make many of those things a reality, but as to actually getting into a position to do that..not sure if I’ll be able to get there (as I have no clue what it would be).
Obviously. I don't know your career goals and how these positions will help, but I'm curious as to why you're interested in being a trainmaster...particularly at Amtrak. There are so many paths to take, yet you seem to have decided on trainmaster....possibly road foreman.

So..that’s my plan. I could really use some advice on how to prepare myself for a career in railroading and what I could expect (i.e., how the extra board works) as well as some feedback on how I’ve laid this out.

Am I making a good choice? Should I be going about this differently? Stuff like that.

Thanks!
Without knowing your ultimate goal, I will say the method you're entertaining to achieve your goal of trainmaster is not a good choice....particularly with the current regime that has a good deal of former NS employees.

If you're SERIOUS in your goal to reach trainmaster, I suggest you attempt to use Amtrak's management training program. You're already college so that is plus. The program will post you in at least 4 key areas (passenger services, transportation,mechanical and operations) and depending on the area, you may post in the movement division. The Amprogram lasts about 2 years. Upon completion, Amtrak will have a fresh faced, college educated apprentice to place in the department that needs you the most....or where you showed the most promise. Typically, they place you were you are needed most though and that may be a division that is short....even if that isn't where you live.

So, if you're single or willing to move, that is the path I'd follow.
 
I'm gonna make a couple of comments here and try to answer some questions and clear some stuff up:

1) I decided on becoming a trainmaster because I don't want to sit in an office all day, every day, doing the same old stuff. I like the fact that I would actually be able to see the effects of decisions I'm making and be on the ground helping to DO something about it. I've always liked getting my hands dirty! At my college and when I used to be at MSU, they really pushed being a buyer for Ford or GM or something like that, but negotiating contracts or working in the auto industry at all never captured my fancy. It was too...generic. I wanted to do something where I would stand out. In addition, I decided against a management career path straight out because I learned from previous discussions on another forum that it wouldn't turn out well. Since then, I'm of the firm belief that a manager should be the cream of the crop, promoted from the ranks, not some kid straight from college who has no idea how the railroad works. I might have some knowledge, but my expertise pales in comparison to some of the members on this board and those who have been working the line for 20+ years.

2) Yes, I know about the generally hostile relationship between management and crews. That's part of the reason why I wanted to get into management. I've seen managers in previous jobs who shouldn't have been anywhere near a position like that. They didn't know how to handle people properly. They treated us like machines instead of people, putting revenue and profit above practicality and good service. That mindset disturbed me, greatly. My hope was, as a manager, to change that. I want to form a bond with the people I'm working with and carry that with me if I were to be promoted to management. Maybe I can, maybe I can't. But the least I could do is try.

3) Yes, I'm willing to move around. I'm single now and will be for the foreseeable future (long, long story).

4) I was going off of the Amtrak jobs page with the "actual time as a conductor" talk. According to the Amtrak Trainmaster job qualifications, I needed at least 5 years experience as a conductor plus some other stuff (can't remember off the top of my head). For the road foreman, it was also 5 years, the previous two violation-free. There aren't any openings for those positions right now on the page, but I did record them in my notes when I looked a couple months ago, so as far as I am aware, it's still current. I know that freight only requires conductor certifications, but no actual experience. Or so I've been told.

5) I chose Amtrak because passenger rail appeals to me over freight. I've been working in customer service jobs for the last few years, and although I hated it at first, over time I realized that it was something I had a lot of experience in, and I could apply those experiences in passenger service in the first part of my career. Then, hopefully, that would give me an advantage in the long run, under the idea that management should be "the model", the best of the best at what they do. Not sure if that's the practice, though.

6) I think for right now, my definite ultimate goal is trainmaster. If something else presents itself after that...well...we'll just have to see.

Please don't take this post as me being resistant to your replies and your knowledge. I appreciate each and every one, I really do. I just am trying to get as much information as I can before the big day comes up and I have to make a definite choice as to where I'm going and what I'm gonna do.

That being said, I think I've just about covered all the concerns brought up so far.

Thank you.
 
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NSC1109, once again I am happy to see you have the right motives for your goals and want to get out there and do something and contribute to doing things and helping to make things work a little better.

That is an awesome way to look at things.

The best way you could do that is to permanently stay in a craft for your entire career and help your fellow workers job be a little easier each day by working hard yourself and helping others.

If you go management, you have to remember your are not working for yourself. You are working for a huge corporation and will have to follow company policy even if that means taking someone's job and livelihood and putting them out on the street for nothing.

You might be thinking, you are a better person than that.

You probably are now, but when you are faced with either throwing someone under the bus or providing for your own family, that it is not such an easy decision.

Do you have the courage to resign and be looking for a new job yourself if you are asked to lie for the company?

Trainmasters and Road Foreman are not involved in the day to day operation of the railroad.

That is the crews and dispatchers and yardmasters job.

What do you think the yardmasters and dispatchers think when a trainmaster tries to tell them how to run their section of the railroad?

If you truly want to "get your hands dirty" then stay in a craft and forget management.

You say you would respect and value people with experience when you get into management.

Right now on this forum you have heard from several people with more experience than you. Are you listening?
 
NSC1109....

...You say you would respect and value people with experience when you get into management.

Right now on this forum you have heard from several people with more experience than you. Are you listening?
I am. And I am happy to see that a number of people have taken the time to help me listen. A lot of the points that you all have brought up are vastly different than what I have been told previously, and for that I am thankful. You have given me a great amount of information from your experiences and experiences of others, and some of the points that I thought I had nailed down I’m seeing in a new light. For example, decisions regarding people under my management..especially when termination is involved..is much harder than I probably would’ve anticipated it being. It has certainly given me a lot to think about before I make any decisions about things that far down the road.

Please, if anyone has any other experiences or opinions they wish to share, I welcome it!
 
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I hope there is no "student loan" involved!
Why? It’s the only way some of us can afford college.
College tuition was a lot cheaper when I went (to a state university which is now in the top 5 public colleges in the USA, but wasn't when I went there) - but the interest rate was a LOT worse - there's no way I could afford it now. I was only 6 credits away from graduation when I took a job that would support my teenagers through college themselves. Do what you have to do.
 
College tuition was a lot cheaper when I went (to a state university which is now in the top 5 public colleges in the USA, but wasn't when I went there) - but the interest rate was a LOT worse - there's no way I could afford it now. I was only 6 credits away from graduation when I took a job that would support my teenagers through college themselves. Do what you have to do.
I understand. It took me 20 years to finish my bachelors because tuition and the loan interest rates doubled/tripled over time. I ended up paying out of pocket and taking classes here and there.

I did take out loans for grad school, but it's because my chosen career requires a masters, and I knew I would be able to pay the loans off within 20 years. If I had kids, I can't say that I would have made that decision. Luckily, I am single and don't have children, so I'm only accountable to myself.

I was simply responding to RichieRich's broad generalization that student loans are inherently bad.

Anyway, this is all moot since the OP benefits from the Kalamazoo Promise (a wonderful program, by the way).
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We're here to help but I need to understand one thing:

I'm gonna make a couple of comments here and try to answer some questions and clear some stuff up:

1) I decided on becoming a trainmaster because I don't want to sit in an office all day, every day, doing the same old stuff. I like the fact that I would actually be able to see the effects of decisions I'm making and be on the ground helping to DO something about it. I've always liked getting my hands dirty! A
Since the work of an Amtrak trainmaster is largely an administrative position, I'm wondering what you think are responsibilities of a trainmaster. Additionally, when you say "get your hands dirty", what are looking to do?
 
We're here to help but I need to understand one thing:

I'm gonna make a couple of comments here and try to answer some questions and clear some stuff up:

1) I decided on becoming a trainmaster because I don't want to sit in an office all day, every day, doing the same old stuff. I like the fact that I would actually be able to see the effects of decisions I'm making and be on the ground helping to DO something about it. I've always liked getting my hands dirty! A
Since the work of an Amtrak trainmaster is largely an administrative position, I'm wondering what you think are responsibilities of a trainmaster. Additionally, when you say "get your hands dirty", what are looking to do?
I believe that I may have misinterpreted how much the position does out in the field when I looked at that job description/duties. It’s still something that I’m interested in, but I’ll have to evaluate if it’s still something I want to do when I get to that point, if that makes sense.
 
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If you want my advice the best department in the railroad is signals especially on the freight side. I did a one year internship in college with CSX in signals. So this is my take.

On the freight side it is the most secure department in the railroad. Engineers and conductors get laid off all the time. When I was working the area I was assigned started with 20-30 coal drags a day. The end of my term the coal drags dwindled to 2-5 and we lost a lot of train crews. But was the signal department effected? It wasn't.

It doesn't matter how many trains run per day they still have to maintain the crossings. And that requires the same amount. Plus most days we were off by three, had weekends off, and slept in our bed every night. It's the best department in the railroad.
 
If you want to work with people and for Amtrak, may I suggest removing "laughing at foamers" as one of your interests? Foamers are not only people, they are also often fare-paying passengers.

I once read an old discussion on another forum about the difference between a railfan and a foamer. They concluded that a foamer is a railfan who lacks social skills. In other words, a foamer is (edited) a railfan who displays behaviors common among people with autism.
 
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During my 7 years at CSX Intermodal in a clerk position, working the extra board like all new hires do on the railroad, I concluded that the job would be great for an unmarried, no girl friend, 20-something living with their parents (free or low-cost rent). Fortunately, the extra board at CSXI was(is?) 'guaranteed', meaning that unlike all other RR extra boards that only work when called, the 40 hour guarantee means will WILL BE working 40 hrs per week. When not filling other employees vacation and sick days, the manager would tell me what scheduled job to work for the next couple of days. But I always had to remain within the area to be able to be there within 2 hrs of being called. Needless to say, that 2 hr requirement means one doesn't go out and get drunk with their friends. As a semi-regular Amtrak passenger, in talking with various A/Cs that began to recognize me and I, them, it was clear their extra board is 'you work when we call you any hour of the night or day to fill a job any hour night or day'. Fortunately, they were mostly filling vacation times only, as far as I could tell.

Being zero seniority at any RR job means whatever 'regular' position you (sort-of-permanently) fill, if you're lucky enough to get other than an extra board or relief position, you can be guaranteed that at some point, maybe 2 days or years from now, you will be bumped out of that job by a more senior coworker, not necessarily working from your crew base, either. The conductors and engineers I got to know at CSX had countless war stories of being bumped and some of the things they had to do as a result. Of course, with zero seniority, or close to it, if there's a cutback, you're on the street until they call you back.

Lastly, as an Amtrak A/C, perhaps the biggest thing you need to be is a 'people person'. If not, you will absolutely hate your job and all the <very derogatory descriptive term/expletive> passengers. I've witnessed Amtrak conductors that should have been a US Marines drill sergeant as they yelled at passengers 'in your face' style. Others complained about everything, especially the passengers. At the same time, expect passengers to yell at you for no reason, especially if they failed to get off at their stop, like you were supposed to hold the train until they took their sweet time to get off. You'll be dealing with drunks, those under the influence, sick and/or vomiting passengers, unruly kids running up and down the aisles, and, of course, loud people in the quiet car, or just about any other kind of jerk, a**hole, and too many other descriptions for passengers. If you can't stay calm and forceful, you likely shouldn't become a conductor.
 
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In other words, a foamer is a railfan who is also on the autism spectrum.
I recommend you consider rephrasing that.
I hope my rephrasing is kosher.

The descriptions I remember reading of foamers described my HFA son quite well. His desire "to sleep on a train" is the reason my family is taking our first trip on Amtrak next month.

That said, I may have misunderstood the difference between a railfan and a foamer.
 
In other words, a foamer is a railfan who is also on the autism spectrum.
I recommend you consider rephrasing that.
I hope my rephrasing is kosher.

The descriptions I remember reading of foamers described my HFA son quite well. His desire "to sleep on a train" is the reason my family is taking our first trip on Amtrak next month.

That said, I may have misunderstood the difference between a railfan and a foamer.
It's better but not great. Maybe just take autism out of it?
 
That said, I may have misunderstood the difference between a railfan and a foamer.
The term "foamer" is a slightly derogatory (I couldn't care care less about that, honestly) term for an avid railfan, since that's someone who "foams at the mouth" when they see a train. So I really don't think that the difference (if there even is one) between a railfan and a foamer would be that the latter must have social difficulties.
 
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