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Karl1459

Derailment of Cascades #501, DuPont WA, 2017-12-18

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As near as I can tell, this is the scene of the accident:

 

attachicon.gifScene.jpg

Oh crap...........79 mph at that curve?

Which may have been allowed with Talgo equipment? That's what's going to be really tricky about this one, this was the first train through this area, was Talgo equipment incorrectly given a speed too high for this curve? The point of Talgo equipment is it can go faster around curves.

 

I'm not an expert at all, just thinking of the timing of this, will be a very interesting investigation.

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The bridge is over the northbound lanes of I-5. (see the grafiti in photos) . The curve to the north of the southbound I-5 bridge is around 10 degrees which would definitely be slow speed and the junction with BNSF mainline is just ahead also a slower speed connection. So many factors to consider. I will just pray for all involved.

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If the pax count is so low, could it be possible for the conductor to put everyone into two or three cars to keep track of everyone?

 

Sent from my SM-G930P using Amtrak Forum mobile app

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Yes sharp curve, if the GE is on tail. The over speed throws the train to the outside of the curve. Breaks apart and then two cars get knock to the inside of the curve and on to the highway below. Rear locomore is still pushing (by force of weight, and or the delay in Emergency brakes). The last few cars end up going down on inside of the curve on to the highway.

 

Ouch going to need a few more Ambulances.

 

With a report of VIP again, hope nobody was in the cab, distracted the engineer.

 

Got bring up the PTC issue. One think there a speed restrictions on this curve. PTC not yet working on this section?

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Does anyone know if they did do test runs on the new route? News outlets are saying they didn't and this first revenue service was actually the inaugural run, which I find hard to believe.

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As near as I can tell, this is the scene of the accident:

 

attachicon.gifScene.jpg

Oh crap...........79 mph at that curve?

Which may have been allowed with Talgo equipment? That's what's going to be really tricky about this one, this was the first train through this area, was Talgo equipment incorrectly given a speed too high for this curve? The point of Talgo equipment is it can go faster around curves.

 

I'm not an expert at all, just thinking of the timing of this, will be a very interesting investigation.

 

 

Surely they would have tested the equipment on the new line before inauguration?

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Seattle Times reported at least three fatalities...

 

Amtrak just now reported 78 passengers and five crew onboard...

Edited by Bierboy

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KING 5 just stated (one of their guests, anyways) that there was extensive testing.

 

First revenue service wouldn't count test trains, anyways. It's true that this is the first revenue train, but there's been many test trains before they put it into revenue service.

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KING 5 just stated (one of their guests, anyways) that there was extensive testing.

 

First revenue service wouldn't count test trains, anyways. It's true that this is the first revenue train, but there's been many test trains before they put it into revenue service.

That's what I thought.

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Does anyone know if they did do test runs on the new route? News outlets are saying they didn't and this first revenue service was actually the inaugural run, which I find hard to believe.

 

https://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Rail/PNWRC_PtDefiance/TrackTesting.htm

 

 

Testing and Certification – The second phase of testing begins in February 2017. Amtrak trains will test the tracks and signals at speeds up to 79 mph between sunrise and sunset on weekends and during non-commuter hours on weekdays. Intersections being tested include Clover Creek Drive, North Thorne Lane, Berkeley Street, 41st Division Drive, and Barksdale Avenue (Steilacoom-DuPont Road), as well as all intersections currently on the Sounder line between the Tacoma Dome and Lakewood stations. These intersections will not be closed to traffic, but there may be delays to allow the trains to pass at varying speeds.

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Oh crap...........79 mph at that curve?

You don't really believe every bit of hearsay you see here, do you?

 

No, of course not. But it would not be the first time we had an "oops" in the speed department on a sharp curve involve passenger trains.

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They have been doing testing for close to a year. Still haven't heard if PTC was in place and in service. Train was a Talgo Serie 6 USA transit, which has short cars like those seen, the cars did not break in half (as far as the photos I have seen anyway).

Nick

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I have to quibble a bit with the news media calling this a "high speed Amtrak train"...technically I suppose that's correct. However, I've never heard LD routes called "high speed", and they routinely hit 79 mph. Japan would laugh at that terminology...

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Police officer (state patrol) being interviewed by media saying she is having a hard time contacting PIO's at Amtrak.

 

Media going back and forth saying fatalities and no fatalities.

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They have been doing testing for close to a year. Still haven't heard if PTC was in place and in service. Train was a Talgo Serie 6 USA transit, which has short cars like those seen, the cars did not break in half (as far as the photos I have seen anyway).

Nick

 

It is notable how the cars did separate.

 

See here for the far higher-speed derailmant at Compostela in Spain.

 

Admittedly this is not the same type of equipment, but I guess the overall dynamics are comparable.

 

Despite what happened, many of the cars did manage to stay attached.

 

Arguably, a train's ability to resist jackknifing in this type of situation can be life saving.

 

Edited by cirdan

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For what it's worth, I found this about the Talgo in India:

 

"Okay, how does this technology work?

"Wheels of conventional coaches are joined by an axle underneath. Talgo’s wheels are mounted in pairs but not joined by an axle — instead, they are fitted individually on the coach. As a result, on a curve, the outer wheel (which has to cover a longer distance than the inner wheel) and the inner wheel are free to rotate at speeds of their own, largely foreclosing the possibility of derailment even at higher speeds. Also, the design of the coach is such that it senses the curve and shifts its weight in a manner that manages the tilt." http://indianexpress.com/article/explained/talgo-super-fast-bullet-train-indian-railways-mumbai-delhi-questions-performance-3029920/

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Oh crap...........79 mph at that curve?

You don't really believe every bit of hearsay you see here, do you?

 

No, of course not. But it would not be the first time we had an "oops" in the speed department on a sharp curve involve passenger trains.

 

The Amtrak train tracking site has it at 81 MPH just before the derailment. I do not know how much it would have slowed down by the incident site. There is no speed indicated at the brown dot (incident site?)

post-3920-0-09025300-1513620400_thumb.jpg

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They have been doing testing for close to a year. Still haven't heard if PTC was in place and in service. Train was a Talgo Serie 6 USA transit, which has short cars like those seen, the cars did not break in half (as far as the photos I have seen anyway).

Nick

 

It is notable how the cars did separate.

 

See here for the far higher-speed derailmant at Compostela in Spain.

 

Admittedly this is not the same type of equipment, but I guess the overall dynamics are comparable.

 

Despite what happened, many of the cars did manage to stay attached.

 

Arguably, a train's ability to resist jackknifing in this type of situation can be life saving.

 

 

Overspeed in a corner with a Talgo train, my first though was of Compostela. There are definitely similarities between the derailments, and I think the probability of an overspeed derailment is absolutely growing. Was there PTC? If so why did it fail to prevent this derailment? Also the original poster who I didn't quote asked if the cars were short, or long and broken in half. That is a no, the train set itself obviously broke apart, the cars themselves seems to have remained largely intact.

Nick

Edited by Ngotwalt

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The set that derailed appears to be Mt. Adams. It is almost certain that it is a scratch.

 

Consist:

 

WDTX 1402
AMTK7903
7554
7804
7503
7504
7424
7423
7422
7421
7420
7120
AMTK 181

Edited by jis

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Talgo cars are coupled together and share a single axle. They are not coupled as other Amtrak or freight cars are.

 

So it is very possible during a derailment that one car goes left while the next car goes right.

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