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CHamilton

New York City subway will replace MetroCard with Apple Pay

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“In the interim, The MTA will begin phasing in the new NFC payment terminals at 500 subway turnstiles and 600 buses by late 2018. The more than half-billion-dollar contract calls for all subway stations and buses to have support for Apple Pay by late 2020.”

 

We’re going to need to delay The Gathering.

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I like the idea of bypassing the parked funds requirement, but I also wonder how much fares will need to increase in order to cover yet another financial services middleman.

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Looks like NY MTA is going in a direction similar to Portland OR did.

 

Now if they could get automatic capping with a Day Pass rate like Portland ....

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Aw, no more "SWIPE AGAIN HERE"?

 

Chicago has already had this type of payment for a couple of years, so it's nice to see the Big Apple getting on board with it.

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So your phone does not with Applepay????

??

You use your iPhone to pay using ApplePay. I have done so both in Portland (instead of a HOP Card) and in Chicago (instead of a Ventra Card). Works just fine. In Chicago you cannot get some discounts with ApplePay that you can with Ventra. Similarly, in Portland all of the discounts available through the HOP Card or Paper tickets are not available when using ApplePay. Only some are. And of course in Portland the Android Wallet, or whatever they call it, works too.

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The article doesn't mention it, so I wanted to check: are they also making sure to include some sort of "agency contactless card" for those who don't have contactless payment methods or wish not to use them? Frankly, I find it much easier to have a "local" fare card for the most part and not have to rely on my phone working properly (especially with NFC payment, which has been an exercise in frustration whenever I've used it on Android.) There's also plenty of people with budget phones (or no smartphone at all) that would need some sort of way to use the transit system.

 

I'm guessing there is, but it seems odd to not mention that in the article.

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I believe almost any NFC Credit or Debit Card will work in the system. at least in principle. But I could be wrong of course. Given that the basic mechanism and hardware needed is more or less the same, it is just a matter of setting up the configuration and software modules right.

 

Rightfully, a transit agency should not really need to have their own card, if they can help it. Basically the approach that Chicago took is to designate a specific Mastercard Debit Card as their card and set up and edifice around it. In principle New York could do the same, but using a technique that involves a lower involvement of MTA on the card management side of things I think.

 

London for example, has had the Oyster Card for voer a decade. But they are trying to start providing the same facility using any NFC Card or equivalent that is available to their customers.

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The article doesn't mention it, so I wanted to check: are they also making sure to include some sort of "agency contactless card" for those who don't have contactless payment methods or wish not to use them? Frankly, I find it much easier to have a "local" fare card for the most part and not have to rely on my phone working properly (especially with NFC payment, which has been an exercise in frustration whenever I've used it on Android.) There's also plenty of people with budget phones (or no smartphone at all) that would need some sort of way to use the transit system.

 

I'm guessing there is, but it seems odd to not mention that in the article.

Keeps the lower classes off the upscale subway and bus transportation system. If you have to rub shoulders with someone, it should be with one who could afford the latest iphone without batting an eye. That limits it to teenagers, politicians and business execs.

 

Then again, the city might provide free 24K gold iphones that give the poor a feeling of equality: https://www.goldgenie.com/gold-iphone-7

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"MetroCards wont be phased out until 2023, 30 years after their initial introduction. Instead of a MetroCard, users will be able to simply wave their smartphone in front of the payment reader. Specific details are somewhat unclear at this stage, but the readers will support NFC technologies like Apple Pay, Android Pay, and Samsung Pay. There will also be contactless cards – which are cards with an NFC chip embedded inside. That option removes the need for a smartphone or Apple Watch."

https://9to5mac.com/2017/10/23/new-york-transit-apple-pay/

 

 

 

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So your phone does not with Applepay????

??

You use your iPhone to pay using ApplePay. I have done so both in Portland (instead of a HOP Card) and in Chicago (instead of a Ventra Card). Works just fine. In Chicago you cannot get some discounts with ApplePay that you can with Ventra. Similarly, in Portland all of the discounts available through the HOP Card or Paper tickets are not available when using ApplePay. Only some are. And of course in Portland the Android Wallet, or whatever they call it, works too.

 

Believe it or not.....iphones are NOT 100% of the market. Coming from a IT background going back to 1975 I will not own or even permit Apple products in my house.......I know iphone users think there are no other phones.....but there are.others......

So.....again, I am SOL???

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Believe it or not.....iphones are NOT 100% of the market. Coming from a IT background going back to 1975 I will not own or even permit Apple products in my house.......I know iphone users think there are no other phones.....but there are.others......

So.....again, I am SOL???

 

 

Did you happen to read me_little_me's comment? It's directly above your response.

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And furthermore as I explained, it is not just iPhones. It is almost any NFC device that has a deal with a payment clearing house. It is just that the NFC device I happen to use is an iPhone.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

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So much irrationality and so little reading comprehension.

 

Contrary to your belief, us iPhone do actually know that other phones exist.

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Beggar at the subway station in 2024:

 

"My phone battery is dead. Would you pay my fare with your iPhone?"

In reality, just like now, they will be picking up discarded limited use prepaid cards hoping that there is enough left on them for one ride ;)

 

Delhi Metro has these neat little plastic coin like things with an embedded RFID, which can be purchased for a single ride. You put them in a slot like a token. That is what many people who do not have NFC devices or cards, use for paying fares. If people being unable to obtain and keep an NFC smart card like Ventra is a problem, there are other known solutions.

 

What is uniquely different in the smart card based systems though are the convenience features like seamless transfers, automatic maxing out for a day and limiting charges to the day pass amount, even when travel spans multiple fare zones and fares are time and distance based (e.g. London's Oyster Card system) etc. which were simply not doable with previous technologies.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

Edited by jis

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There is a huge population that assume 'iphone' is like 'Jell-o'.....a wireless device is a iphone......work with the public for a while and see for yourself.

I still do not see the bias toward iphone weather it's today or in 10 years. Chances are in 10 years they may be unknown to the general public....things change that fast. Blockbuster went from zero to 10K stores to 11 stores is less than 15 years....it can happen to anyone.

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The NFC technology (or the ability to use Apple Pay/Android Pay) is almost certainly the best way forward. We've had NFC fare cards here in MSP for about 10 years now, although since it was built to be somewhat asynchronous (the buses don't talk back to the server until they go into the garage for the night) the only method is to use the agency's farecard (which is free.) Cash is still accepted on buses and ticket machines, though.

 

My only concern is that NYC needs something to sell to people who are unbanked and/or don't have a contactless card. There's a lot of people, especially when you look at the transit system world, that don't have bank accounts and operate on a mainly cash basis. There's also plenty of people who are banked but don't have any sort of contactless card (most budget phones don't have NFC built in, and most banks in the US currently don't issue contactless cards.) There certainly are solutions to use, but the agency needs to be proactive in making those solutions instead of reactive when they realize there's a lot of people that can't use contactless without an agency solution.

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In case anyone had difficulty believing or understanding the stuff that I have been trying to explain.... including all that claim to be IT experts ;)

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/23/nyregion/metrocard-subway-new-york.html?_r=0

 

And jebr, NYC will have a designated NFC Card that will be vended by the MTA under a name yet to be determined, sort of like London has the Oyster Cards and Chicago has the Ventra Cards. So your concern is already being addressed. Afterall the guys who manage the Oyster system are the ones who have been chosen to deploy the system in New York.

Edited by jis

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And jebr, NYC will have a designated NFC Card that will be vended by the MTA under a name yet to be determined, sort of like London has the Oyster Cards and Chicago has the Ventra Cards. So your concern is already being addressed. Afterall the guys who manage the Oyster system are the ones who have been chosen to deploy the system in New York.

 

Good to hear. I assumed that was probably the case, but I hate to assume. (I do see now that it was mentioned in passing in the 9to5 Mac article, though I probably didn't make the connection that the contactless cards were also through the MTA and not just bank contactless cards. The NY Times article helped as well; thanks.)

 

But yeah, NFC is an open technology that can be used with all sorts of devices, not just the iPhone. I certainly get annoyed by Apple when it tries to use proprietary technology, but on the wireless front they've seemed to do well in adopting open standards (NFC for payments and Qi for charging.)

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Coming from a IT background going back to 1975 I will not own or even permit Apple products in my house.......I know iphone users think there are no other phones.....but there are.others......So.....again, I am SOL???

Interesting admission. So do you pat visitors down and remove any Apple contraband before they can enter your house? Or do you simply kick them off your lawn and down the street? You say you come from an IT background but your post sounds more like an emotional reaction to broad social trends.

 

 

There is a huge population that assume 'iphone' is like 'Jell-o'.....a wireless device is a iphone......work with the public for a while and see for yourself.

There is an even bigger population that uses Android instead of Apple. Many of those users seem to equate smart devices with Google. Each group is large enough to ensure they'll both be supported. Not sure where you're going with this other than you seem to have some sort of aversion to Apple products/users.

 

 

I still do not see the bias toward iphone weather it's today or in 10 years. Chances are in 10 years they may be unknown to the general public....things change that fast. Blockbuster went from zero to 10K stores to 11 stores is less than 15 years....it can happen to anyone.

Blockbuster was disliked by many but it didn't simply die on its own. The fundamental concept on which it was based (temporary rental of physical media) was undermined and eventually strangled to death by changes in the marketplace. Changes that were accelerated by an explosion of online media content. Pioneered by products such as iTunes. Released by Apple. No company is immune to bad management or severe market changes, but it's hard to imagine a scenario where smart phones/tablets/watches simply vanish from public consciousness over the next few years in the same way rental DVD's did a few years ago.

Edited by Devil's Advocate

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Other than the possibility that Smartphones may evolve to look more and more like Star Trek Tricorders, I don't really see them going away in a decade. As DA correctly states Blockbuster's business model was undermined my technical advances and they were unable or unwilling to adapt to changes. Of course that could happen to anyone. But it would be a huge surprise if that anyone includes Apple or Google or Microsoft for that matter, in the coming decade.

Frankly, I don't understand the technical basis for the hostility towards Apple. Seems an emotional rather than a technical response.

But yeah, NFC is an open technology that can be used with all sorts of devices, not just the iPhone. I certainly get annoyed by Apple when it tries to use proprietary technology, but on the wireless front they've seemed to do well in adopting open standards (NFC for payments and Qi for charging.)

I am glad Apple chose Qi, since I have been using Qi with my iPhone 6+ using a Qi Case. At least all those Qi pads lying around at various places in my house and the Qi pad in my car will all continue to be useful. :)

But all this is getting a bit off topic.

Meanwhile as expected, a press release has come out of the Android camp on the subject too...

https://www.androidcentral.com/android-pay-coming-nyc-subways-2020

Edited by jis

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Beggar at the subway station in 2024:

 

"My phone battery is dead. Would you pay my fare with your iPhone?"

In reality, just like now, they will be picking up discarded limited use prepaid cards hoping that there is enough left on them for one ride ;)

Oh, you obviously need to spend more time in Chicago, where it is quite common for people to just boldly ask other riders to pass them through the turnstile.

 

"My battery died" will, surely, both become a new excuse to ask by beggars, as well as a reality among those who can't exist without their phones.

 

Delhi Metro has these neat little plastic coin like things with an embedded RFID, which can be purchased for a single ride. You put them in a slot like a token. That is what many people who do not have NFC devices or cards, use for paying fares. If people being unable to obtain and keep an NFC smart card like Ventra is a problem, there are other known solutions.

That makes a lot of sense, and actually can help with social service groups, for instance, which like to have the ability to offer low income clients car fare.

 

What is uniquely different in the smart card based systems though are the convenience features like seamless transfers, automatic maxing out for a day and limiting charges to the day pass amount, even when travel spans multiple fare zones and fares are time and distance based (e.g. London's Oyster Card system) etc. which were simply not doable with previous technology

This presumes that the transit system wants to allow transfers, day limits, etc.

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