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randomguy65

New Siemens Charger locomotive.

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When I said "hybrid", I meant like half diesel half hybrid-battery. A similar example is a hybrid car.

 

And again, I was not referring to dual mode.

 

So, the answers I'm getting now, is that they're standard diesel locomotives (non-hybrid), right?

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When I said "hybrid", I meant like half diesel half hybrid-battery. A similar example is a hybrid car.

 

And again, I was not referring to dual mode.

 

So, the answers I'm getting now, is that they're standard diesel locomotives (non-hybrid), right?

 

No they're not. You're likely to find something like that working in a yard. AKA a genset unit. They're not meant for Road Use.

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Are Chargers more fuel efficient than P42s if pulling the same numbers of cars and tonnages? If so, how much efficient?

Since they are Tier 4 compliant Ill venture to say they are slightly better. Maybe a half mile to a mile.
The Tier standards haven't got anything to do with fuel efficiency, they're all about exhaust emissions, and while I can't speak for the QSK95 vs the FDL in particular, Tier 4 diesels actually tend to be somewhat less fuel efficient than their immediate predecessors.

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We are getting a bit hung up on terminology in terms of technical vs actual. A Charger is what most folks would refer to as a standard road diesel. In actuality, it is diesel-electric, since the diesel is used to generate electricity for traction power, and in the case of passenger use, HEP. Genset units have a separate engine driving the generator that is producing HEP. An F-59PHI would be an example of a passenger road diesel in the genset category. Switching/yard work presents opportunities for different methods, speed is not the requirement that it is in road service, diesel-electric, and diesel-hydraulic (think transmission) are pretty common. You don't need HEP for most yard, work, and switching work

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Another F59PHI left on the Southwest Chief last night, likely going to its new home in Chicago. Any updates on when the new Pacific Surfliner Chargers will enter service?

I just saw three Cascades F59PHI locomotives in the Metra Western Avenue yard in Chicago this evening. The locomotive numbers are 467, 468 and 470.

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I’ve got it on good authority that Chargers are entering service on the Michigan Line VERY soon. Post gets cut off when I try to attach it on my phone so I’m gonna try again on my laptop when I get home.

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Hi,

I took this photo of a Charger pulling a Hiawatha past the last two remaining EMD F40C locomotives at Western Avenue yard in Chicago. I also noticed yesterday that former Amtrak F59PHI #450 and #454 are now at this yard as of October 24th.

 

On October 26th, F59PHI #463 arrived in Chicago coupled ahead of the baggage car and behind two GE locomotives on the eastbound Empire Builder.

post-10652-0-17091100-1540508748_thumb.jpg

Edited by DSS&A

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I saw the eastbound Empire Builder arriving in Chicago today. F59PHI #469 was coupled between the 2nd and 3rd GE loco that were in charge of the train.

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- 

-         Charger Updates from States and Amtrak – In October, Chairman Curtit requested summary updates on the Chargers now that they have been placed in service. 

 

Updates provided on 10-23-18:

 

a.      Illinois/Mid-West States:

 

Jennifer Bastian reported that the overall equipment delivery and performance of the new Charger Locomotives has been the best she has seen.  She noted that it is her understanding that it has exceeded Amtrak’s expectations. 

 

Operationally, it has been a good procurement.

 

One area of concern, however, is warrantee support and parts availability.  The Mid-West states are working with Siemens to correct this situation.

 

b.      California:

 

Kyle Gradinger agreed with Jennifer that the procurement has been a good one operationally.  Caltrans’ concerns are similar to those noted by IDOT – warrantee support – and parts availability. Overall, Kyle commented, - “operationally, when they are running, they work great”.  He added that engineers enjoy the cab and the acceleration is great – “overall we are very happy with the operation.”

 

Kyle did mention that there are some glitches with the design of the snow plow – noting that California doesn’t need a snow plow and it is ultimately used for shopping carts and tumble weed which can be problematic under the current design.

 

c.      Amtrak:

 

Charlie King, Amtrak, echoed the comments made by California and IDOT and noted that Amtrak is measuring the information closely and looking at availability of parts and overall warranty support.

 

Charlie added that “we need robust part support from Siemens and technical support as well…we need to partner with Siemens and need a good and tight relationship between the states and Siemens and Amtrak, the states and Siemens.”

      

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A very short corroboration from the October MARC Riders Advisory Council Minutes: “Initial reports are that the Chargers (newest locomotives) are working well and are quiet.”

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Hahahahahaha.... tumbleweeds and shopping carts!

 

Any idea just how and why tumbleweeds are an issue with the plow? Also just what kind of design differences are there for primarily handling snow as opposed to any general debris?

 

I always figured it was all good as long as the plow doesn’t totally fail like that junk metrolink got from Hyundai-Rotem. Except in that one in a million circumstance like the Bourbonnais CONO tragedy, a plow should never fail.

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The Tier standards haven't got anything to do with fuel efficiency, they're all about exhaust emissions, and while I can't speak for the QSK95 vs the FDL in particular, Tier 4 diesels actually tend to be somewhat less fuel efficient than their immediate predecessors.

 

I have heard that they are a little better than genesis locomotives and that it has a lot to do with choices made in emissions management that offloaded some of the hit in efficiency, mainly the after exhaust treatment of urea to almost eliminate NOX emissions. It was a design choice that made the engine more efficient and less complex, at the slight additional cost of frequent light maintenance (refilling the urea reserve tank) I’m sure that cycle is about as frequent as refilling sand, so it can’t be that bad. I wonder if they will just let an engine go out of it isn’t done or is it bad-ordered? From my understanding it’s not mechanically required to operate, it’s an after treatment. I guess that depends on local air quality regulations.

 

Just for reference the genesis locomotive use about 2.2 gallons of fuel for one mile on average across the amtrak system. It’s in their detailed monthly reports, and since until recently their fleet was homogenous a pretty good average. The p-32DM’s only drop their overrunning shoe a few hundred feet from Penn Station (all of MNCR territory is under running) the electric pickup has a negligible benefit to overall efficiency. If I remember from seeing them, the NJT dual modes actually power down the prime mover when switching to the pantograph.

 

 

I should also add that, although I think they are all gone by now, the P-42 is 4250 HP, the first Genesis locos (P-40) 250 HP less... And P-32DM 3,200 in all diesel mode.

 

I have heard the F-40’s gulped a third to half more in fuel. They were older and things improve, and also in providing HEP they had to run at a constant high RPM whereas the Genesis locos throttle down. That alone save a lot of fuel. As much as the Genesis made for more quiet running, I noticed at Hanford a couple of days ago as the train pulled at accelerating rapidly you could barely hear it as more than a gently idling engine as it passed me while pushing the train south towards bakersfield. I would even say it was more pleasant than the sci-fi like noise you get from

inverters and rectifiers and other electrical

noise on some electric motors now days. (yes despite amtrak’s own press, electric engines are “motors” and not “locomotives.” Those are very specific terms and not interchangeable. Even more specifically, old timers call themselves “motormen” not “engineers.”)

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I don't know about locomotives using urea DEF, but in buses, if the urea tank runs dry, even if there is plenty of fuel, the engine computer will "de-rate" the engine to a safe-home mode, until the DEF is refilled....

 

 

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3 hours ago, railiner said:

I don't know about locomotives using urea DEF, but in buses, if the urea tank runs dry, even if there is plenty of fuel, the engine computer will "de-rate" the engine to a safe-home mode, until the DEF is refilled....

 

 

That is a setting placed into the ECM, and can be removed (though, the legality of doing so is dubious for non-exempt vehicles). Our most recent fire engines have DEF, something our department steered away from as long as possible for similar reasons as the railroad industry. In the event of the DEF running out during an incident, the engine going into limp mode would potentially be a very bad thing. As a result, that function is deactivated, and the engine won't derate. If they can do it for us, so to can a locomotive.

 

My guess is they won't, though.

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In an application such as locomotive there is no good reason to run out of DEF. Of course there is no good reason to run out of fuel either, and that occasionally happens.  I guess a tank or pipe leak is not impossible, but lets put that on the rare occurrence shelf.

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The exact consequences for running out of DEF seem to vary based on manufacturer, but all engines will go into limp mode (with a few rare exceptions that I am sure locomotives don't qualify for).  Some I have run can just be refilled and primed, while others require a manufacturers' representative to perform the software reset.  The Cummins engines I run now fall into the latter category, but I have no idea if that design is consistent throughout their portfolio.

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7 hours ago, nti1094 said:

I should also add that, although I think they are all gone by now, the P-42 is 4250 HP, the first Genesis locos (P-40) 250 HP less... And P-32DM 3,200 in all diesel mode.

Amtrak still runs a bunch of P40s which were refurbished and upgraded to P42 spec (from 4,000 to 4,250 horsepower) through the 2011 Amtrak stimulus package. So there used to be a horsepower deficit, but that’s no longer the case for the units that are still running.

Edited by cpotisch

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58 minutes ago, Blackwolf said:

That is a setting placed into the ECM, and can be removed (though, the legality of doing so is dubious for non-exempt vehicles). Our most recent fire engines have DEF, something our department steered away from as long as possible for similar reasons as the railroad industry. In the event of the DEF running out during an incident, the engine going into limp mode would potentially be a very bad thing. As a result, that function is deactivated, and the engine won't derate. If they can do it for us, so to can a locomotive.

 

My guess is they won't, though.

What’s DEF?

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Diesel exhaust fluid,  (urea and water)  used with selective catalytic reduction to achieve Tier 4 emissions requirements, in particular Nitrogen Oxide. Newer diesels  will have a separate tank for it. Look at a new truck and you will see a fill marked "DEF ONLY" in addition to the diesel fill.

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7 hours ago, cpotisch said:

Amtrak still runs a bunch of P40s which were refurbished and upgraded to P42 spec (from 4,000 to 4,250 horsepower) through the 2011 Amtrak stimulus package. So there used to be a horsepower deficit, but that’s no longer the case for the units that are still running.

While you're correct about the spec upgrade. The real major difference between the two is the braking systems. I can't recall what the difference is off the top of my head. 

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The new Via Chargers are reported to be 4000 hp like the “streamlined” Brightline SCB-40 locomotives and not 4400 hp like the other SC-44 Chargers. And, they probably will have their own unique front style. SCV-40? Also, they appear to have a revised snowplow. No tumbleweeds in Canada.

 

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14 hours ago, Acela150 said:
21 hours ago, cpotisch said:

Amtrak still runs a bunch of P40s which were refurbished and upgraded to P42 spec (from 4,000 to 4,250 horsepower) through the 2011 Amtrak stimulus package. So there used to be a horsepower deficit, but that’s no longer the case for the units that are still running.

While you're correct about the spec upgrade. The real major difference between the two is the braking systems. I can't recall what the difference is off the top of my head.

Found this on Wikipedia, but can you translate it into terms easily understood by a naïve 16 year-old? ^_^

Quote

By 2007, New Jersey Transit had upgraded their P40DC units with updated prime movers to match the 4,250 horsepower (3,170 kW) of the successor P42DC. This was done by readjusting the position of the lay shafts within the prime mover.

Amtrak has returned 15 of their P40DC units to service as part of a project funded through the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009. The first of the units were returned to service in March 2010 after being overhauled at the Beech Grove Shops. They were upgraded like NJT's units had been a few years before to have 4,250 hp (3,170 kW) and match the P42DC's maximum speed of 110 mph (177 km/h). They also received updated cab signaling systems. The upgraded locomotives still have mechanical air brakes, which makes them most suitable for trains that only require a single locomotive. This differs from the electronic air brakes on the P42DC and P32AC-DM. They also feature a builder's plate indicating that they were rebuilt under the auspices of the TIGER stimulus program.

 

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