Hoosier State/Iowa Pacific Transition Thread

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Unfortunately this does not surprise me; it's Indiana, and the Indiana state government has been trying to prevent train service for as long as I can remember.

We should see some collateral damage to Cardinal ridership. Hopefully Amtrak will get its act together and make the Cardinal daily sooner rather than later (though I don't think they can do it before 2016 in any case).
 
This, of course, was Indian's plan all along. They are willing to subsidize bus service along the route, but not train service.
 
That was their plan all along. Every other state has figured out how to run their trains without setting up any unnecessary bureaucracy, so that stupid excuse just says that Indiana DOT is particularly incompetent. That's all.
 
That was their plan all along. Every other state has figured out how to run their trains without setting up any unnecessary bureaucracy, so that stupid excuse just says that Indiana DOT is particularly incompetent. That's all.
They could subcontract to NICTD, for example. :p The State of Indiana already pays for the operation of an FRA-regulated railroad. This is, as you say, just excuses.

The Heartland Flyer (which will now be the most expensive state-supported train on a per-passenger-mile basis, though much cheaper than the Hoosier State) is apparently at risk as well (though less risk) according to news reports.

This leaves the Sunset Limited as the most expensive on a per-passenger-mile basis, followed by the Cardinal. Here's hoping Amtrak can get the daily Cardinal and daily Sunset soon and get them back in line financially with the rest of the trains. With the Viewliner IIs coming 2015 and 2016, and the Midwest/California bilevels coming starting at the end of 2015 (and freeing up Amtrak-owned equipment for other service), and the Charger locos coming in fall of 2016 (and freeing up Amtrak-owned equipment for other service), there should be enough locomotives and rolling stock to do so in 2016 or 2017 -- certainly for the Cardinal. Amtrak should be pushing hard on the negotiations and capital improvements for a daily Cardinal now. Unfortunately there seems to be some sort of lack of business sense at Amtrak's long distance division.
 
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We should see some collateral damage to Cardinal ridership. Hopefully Amtrak will get its act together and make the Cardinal daily sooner rather than later (though I don't think they can do it before 2016 in any case).
If Amtrak wanted to be really obtuse and eat some losses, they could create a train that runs from Detroit to Huntington WV, via Chicago, barely meeting the 750 mile requirement, pending the completion of the upgrades on BBRR. Just a completely off the wall random idea, I must admit, with zero possibility for execution.
 
If Amtrak wanted to be really obtuse and eat some losses, they could create a train that runs from Detroit to Huntington WV, via Chicago, barely meeting the 750 mile requirement, pending the completion of the upgrades on BBRR. Just a completely off the wall random idea, I must admit, with zero possibility for execution.
Awesome! They could call it "The Gerrymander". ;)
 
If Amtrak wanted to be really obtuse and eat some losses, they could create a train that runs from Detroit to Huntington WV, via Chicago, barely meeting the 750 mile requirement, pending the completion of the upgrades on BBRR. Just a completely off the wall random idea, I must admit, with zero possibility for execution.
Awesome! They could call it "The Gerrymander". ;)
To go along with the Blue Water, how about the Crystal Waters? "Back to the middle and around again!" :giggle:
 
So the other shoe drops. Pretty clear that IN DOT was looking for an excuse to not fund the Hoosier State all along. IN DOT press release with more info on their justifications (well, whining excuses). Excerpt:

Under new rules that the FRA is testing with Indiana, all states that support passenger rail services would be considered railroad carriers. This burdensome interpretation exposes states to significant increases in cost, paperwork and liability, including:

  • Liability for the actions of passenger rail providers up to $200 million for each occurrence of injury, death or property damage,
  • Hiring new staff to monitor plans and programs in compliance with federal rules, and
  • Interpretation that state employees are rail employees, subject to retirement and employer liability rules and limits.
Over 20 other states are doing this, it should be not that difficult for IN to do so as well. This INDOT move clears the way - eventually - for a daily Cardinal. I think Amtrak management has not discussed or made any official plans for a daily Cardinal since the PIP report because they wanted to give IN every opportunity to fund the HS with both operating subsidies and capital investments. Any public discussion of a daily Cardinal in IN would have given IN DOT a reason to not support the HS at all, right from the October 1, 2013 changeover.

The roadblocks for a daily Cardinal are not just equipment, but the condition of and lack of long sidings on the Buckingham Branch in VA. Indiana could observe that Virginia is providing tens of millions of state funds to the BBRR as a Class 3 short line railroad to get the tracks and signal systems to a state of good repair as an example of how a state government sees value in having a viable and maintained freight rail system. VA is funding $4.9 million towards building a long siding on the BBRR so the 8000' long empty coal trains have a place to pull over on the single track line. Don't know the timeframe for construction of the siding but the second installment is in the FY16 state budget. I think Virginia would be happy to see a daily Cardinal by 2017 - would go nicely with a train to Roanoke and a second Lynchburger.
 
No big loss. What incentive did InDOT have to support it anyhow if VA and others will effectively pay for it in a few years with a daily Cardinal?
 
All it says is Indiana is unwilling to do what every other state with state run trains has been doing. C'est la vie. It is astounding that it took them one year to figure out what their responsibilities are. Perhaps they should have considered all this before all the bravado about we will run our own privately run train operated by an outfit that has never run a train before. Really!
 
This whole event was an exercise in bad comedy. The outcome is not entirely unexpected.
 
So the other shoe drops. Pretty clear that IN DOT was looking for an excuse to not fund the Hoosier State all along. IN DOT press release with more info on their justifications (well, whining excuses). Excerpt:

Under new rules that the FRA is testing with Indiana, all states that support passenger rail services would be considered railroad carriers. This burdensome interpretation exposes states to significant increases in cost, paperwork and liability, including:

  • Liability for the actions of passenger rail providers up to $200 million for each occurrence of injury, death or property damage,
  • Hiring new staff to monitor plans and programs in compliance with federal rules, and
  • Interpretation that state employees are rail employees, subject to retirement and employer liability rules and limits.
Over 20 other states are doing this, it should be not that difficult for IN to do so as well. This INDOT move clears the way - eventually - for a daily Cardinal. I think Amtrak management has not discussed or made any official plans for a daily Cardinal since the PIP report because they wanted to give IN every opportunity to fund the HS with both operating subsidies and capital investments. Any public discussion of a daily Cardinal in IN would have given IN DOT a reason to not support the HS at all, right from the October 1, 2013 changeover.

The roadblocks for a daily Cardinal are not just equipment, but the condition of and lack of long sidings on the Buckingham Branch in VA. Indiana could observe that Virginia is providing tens of millions of state funds to the BBRR as a Class 3 short line railroad to get the tracks and signal systems to a state of good repair as an example of how a state government sees value in having a viable and maintained freight rail system. VA is funding $4.9 million towards building a long siding on the BBRR so the 8000' long empty coal trains have a place to pull over on the single track line. Don't know the timeframe for construction of the siding but the second installment is in the FY16 state budget. I think Virginia would be happy to see a daily Cardinal by 2017 - would go nicely with a train to Roanoke and a second Lynchburger.
It could be that the problem is not the state but the federal government. As the press release states, the FRA is testing new rules that require the states to be considered railroads. If so, look out. An earlier statement from Indiana quoted by the Lafayette Journal and Courier : "Gov. Mike Pence’s spending recommendation contains language similar to Truitt’s bill, but goes one step further. In addition to funding the service, Pence’s plan authorizes INDOT to purchase rail equipment."
 
Here is some more on the Indiana story:

http://www.indianahighspeedrail.org/docs/2015/201503aai.pdf

Incidentally insurance underwriting for passenger service has been a problem in the past too. Remember the delay in getting the Texas Eagle to move over to the non-UP route between Dallas and Fort Worth?

We really need to get more detail on what FRA is asking and how it differs from all other states to get a better understanding of this. Since Ed Ellis says there is a problem, there likely is a problem, since he knows his stuff. But we have not gotten enough detail yet to know what it really is all about.
 
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Statement from Amtrak:

AMTRAK STATEMENT FROM PRESIDENT AND CEO JOSEPH BOARDMAN

WASHINGTON -- The following statement is issued today by Amtrak President and CEO Joseph Boardman regarding an announcement made this afternoon by the Indiana Department of Transportation:

"Daily Amtrak service to Indianapolis does not have to end in April. Amtrak has offered to continue to operate the train on a month-to-month basis.

"Amtrak is ready, willing and able to continue to provide safe and reliable service using one of the proven models we've used in other states.

"We have shown how the quality of the passenger experience can be improved by demonstrating modern Wi-Fi and business class seating. We have the expertise in working with the host railroads and have repeatedly offered to be the state's and the communities' partner in advancing plans to improve the travel time and the reliability of the service.

"Experience has proven that losing the foundation that daily service to central Indiana now provides will make it much more difficult and expensive to create a true intercity passenger corridor in the future. Amtrak made it clear in a recent meeting in Washington with Lafayette-area officials that ways to improve this service are within the state's reach, with Amtrak as a proven partner."
I wonder how this squares with the postings on trainorders regarding Amtrak pushing FRA, and the undying desire of the InDOT rank and file to make Hoosier State service continue. Very curious.
 
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If Amtrak wanted to be really obtuse and eat some losses, they could create a train that runs from Detroit to Huntington WV, via Chicago, barely meeting the 750 mile requirement, pending the completion of the upgrades on BBRR. Just a completely off the wall random idea, I must admit, with zero possibility for execution.
Awesome! They could call it "The Gerrymander". ;)
To go along with the Blue Water, how about the Crystal Waters? "Back to the middle and around again!" :giggle:
Wow that is a song from the past. ^_^
 
Boom, I am out of popcorn.

If the cardinal does go 7 day a week can we have it end in St Louis, or Kansas City?

Are we still service the smaller town on this route with the 3 day a week Cardinal? Or are we going to skip them? If we are not going to skip them, then it just a pain to travel now, not impossible.

Not sure I see what the fuss is. Do we really care.

Sorry.
 
Maybe Amtrak should use the Cardinal equipment plus the new Viewliners to resume the Broadway Limited and run it 7 days a week,? ( IF it could be worked out with the Class I RRs?)

That almost certainly would be a well patronized train! The Hoosier and Card slot to Indy could be used for a Hospital train to Beech Grove!

Personally I like the idea of having the Card continuing but terminate it in STL instead of CHI on a 7 day a werk schedule!

As an alternate the long talked about thru cars from the Penn to the Cap would be a better use of the equipment and staff that work the Card, even though we train buffs love the scenery on the Card route!
 
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I wonder how this squares with the postings on trainorders regarding Amtrak pushing FRA, and the undying desire of the InDOT rank and file to make Hoosier State service continue. Very curious.
I saw some of those INDOT staff really wanted to keep the HS posts on trainorders. But that does not square with the INDOT press release announcing the end of service coming out on Friday afternoon. Which is the classic time for agencies and companies to put out negative news that they want to have sink with barely a ripple because by Monday the news cycle will have moved on. Perhaps there is a split between the staff at INDOT and what the political appointees & the Governor's office want.
Boardman is offering to run the HS on a month to month contract basis which is a generous offer. My conclusion is that we should take any claims from INDOT about the FRA issues with a big grain of salt. If these are onerous new regulations, why have we not heard a fuss from other states yet?
 
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