Transition to Amtrak on the night of April 30th-May 1st 1971

I have a couple questions about the transition to Amtrak's takeover of passenger trains on the night of April 30th-May 1st 1971. For trains that Amtrak was continuing that were en route at midnight on May 1st, did they become Amtrak's responsibility at midnight or were they handled by their railroad until their arrival at their final destination? For trains that Amtrak was discontinuing that were scheduled to be en route at midnight on may 1st, Did they run at all? If so, did they run to their final destination, or only to the farthest station they could get to before midnight on the 1st? Also, were there any trains being discontinued that had their last departure before April 30th because their departure time was after midnight eastern time? Similarly, were there any trains that Amtrak operated on April 30th local time because their departure time was after midnight eastern time?

The railroads operated each train through to its destination, including those that were being discontinued. So the last westbound City of Los Angeles arrived in Los Angeles May 2 and was a Union Pacific train.

Also bear in mind that for the early years, and especially right at inception Amtrak was only a contracting entity. The difference really is UP retained sole financial responsibility for 103(30) and Santa Fe for 17(30). Amtrak didn't start picking up the tab until 12:01 am 5/1/71, so 17(1) (and it was still AT&SF 17) was on Amtrak's dime, as well as its origin being moved to Union Station from Dearborn. Amtrak had no train crews, onboard service staff or ticket agents. All aspects of actual operation were handled by the contracted railroads using railroad infrastructure and personnel with Amtrak reimbursing for the expenses incurred. So on Day 1 the Super Chief was still superb and the Daylight still kind of sucked.

I am pretty sure the determining factor was local time of train departure from its point of origin.

This obviously raises further questions, which are

- when the train staff were transferred to Amtrak

- when the rolling stock was transferred to Amtrak

- when the ticketing operations were transferred to Amtrak

I think the rolling stock transferred over early (before A-day?), since the rolling stock contributions were part of the process of joining Amtrak and being relieved of the obligation of running passenger trains on their own account. I assume the ticketing transferred over *on* A-day. But I think the train staff changed employers slowly... anyone know?

zephyr17 said:

The railroads operated each train through to its destination, including those that were being discontinued. So the last westbound City of Los Angeles arrived in Los Angeles May 2 and was a Union Pacific train.

Also bear in mind that for the early years, and especially right at inception Amtrak was only a contracting entity. The difference really is UP retained sole financial responsibility for 103(30) and Santa Fe for 17(30). Amtrak didn't start picking up the tab until 12:01 am 5/1/71, so 17(1) (and it was still AT&SF 17) was on Amtrak's dime, as well as its origin being moved to Union Station from Dearborn. Amtrak had no train crews, onboard service staff or ticket agents. All aspects of actual operation were handled by the contracted railroads using railroad infrastructure and personnel with Amtrak reimbursing for the expenses incurred. So on Day 1 the Super Chief was still superb and the Daylight still kind of sucked.

I am pretty sure the determining factor was local time of train departure from its point of origin.

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I agree with zephyr17 on the above as usual.

Some of us remember the cruel and stupid case of the L&N discontinuing the Cincinnati to New Orleans Humming Bird in 1969 while passengers were on board in Birmingham eating breakfast with what should have been several hours to go

At least the transition to Amtrak was handled with more class than that,

neroden said:

This obviously raises further questions, which are

- when the train staff were transferred to Amtrak

- when the rolling stock was transferred to Amtrak

- when the ticketing operations were transferred to Amtrak

I think the rolling stock transferred over early (before A-day?), since the rolling stock contributions were part of the process of joining Amtrak and being relieved of the obligation of running passenger trains on their own account. I assume the ticketing transferred over *on* A-day. But I think the train staff changed employers slowly... anyone know?

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My brother became an engineer for Chessie System back in the late 70s and he operated the Shenandoah Amtrak train a few times between Parkersburg and Grafton, WVa until the line ended in 1981. He had some interesting stories about getting food from the cafe or diner car brought up to the locomotive back in the day. He just retired after over 35 years of service but that was his only stint as an Amtrak engineer.

As some one else mentioned, in the early years, the private railroads just contracted with Amtrak to operate the trains. For the first year, the operation was very similar on the trains the Amtrak kept operating. During the first year, Amtrak inspected all the equipment and selected the best, mostly Budd Stainless steel cars. During the summer months, they needed more equipment so they brought on some more. I remember seeing Illinois Central equipment on the Empire Builder in the summer of 1972. The crew continued to be employed by the Railroado until the mid to late 1970s. They were gradually assumed by Amtrak as Employees.

neroden said:

This obviously raises further questions, which are

- when the train staff were transferred to Amtrak

- when the rolling stock was transferred to Amtrak

- when the ticketing operations were transferred to Amtrak

I think the rolling stock transferred over early (before A-day?), since the rolling stock contributions were part of the process of joining Amtrak and being relieved of the obligation of running passenger trains on their own account. I assume the ticketing transferred over *on* A-day. But I think the train staff changed employers slowly... anyone know?

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The initial operation was with the RRs rolling stock for operational reasons as well as it took time to inspect the equipment and pick what they wanted (lots from Santa Fe, not much from Penn Central), they just continued to do what they did the day before in most cases, although where the railroad infrastructure was lacking, they made changes almost immediately. An example is in Los Angeles where SP had closed their coach yard in 1968, and most servicing was done in San Francisco and Oakland with minor service done right at LAUPT. Amtrak had Santa Fe do all coach yard work including former SP service almost immediately for a number of reasons including the initial operating pattern with the Daylight/Starlight in particular. The rolling stock transfer took place fairly early though, and ownership was transferred around 1972, IIRC. The transfer caused a lot of silly problems. Penn Central coach yard crews didn't know what to make of UP equipment for instance. But the Rainbow Era, which really started when Amtrak assumed ownership of the passenger cars, was pretty entertaining. I remember having a SCL lounge car on a San Diegan I rode in the fall of 1973.

The on board service staff started transferring around 1973 or 1974 IIRC. It took awhile for Amtrak to establish the infrastructure, there were union issues to deal with. That took place somewhat gradually.

Reservations happened fairly early. It was the highest priority to do early, as Amtrak using the RR's reservation bureaus meant Amtrak had a number of different numbers to call (if you were taking an ex-SP train, you called the old SP reservation line, if you were taking Santa Fe, you called Santa Fe's number) and a wide variety of policies around credit card acceptance, SP didn't take credit cards while Santa Fe did, IIRC. They wanted to establish a single presence, so getting that unified was a high priority. I think they got reservations together by sometime early in 1972. You could tell by looking at the early timetables, because they'd stop listing all sorts of different numbers to call for different services.

However, Amtrak used RR station agents at small stations for a LONG time, into the 1980s, although they'd use Amtrak's reservation system. Think how Amtrak arranges with VIA to use VIA agents in Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal now. That only dried up as the RRs closed their freight agencies, and Amtrak either had to put their own staff in or let the station go unstaffed (which was the preferred option in most cases).

The last to cut over was the T&E crews. That started taking place in the early 1980s. Again, there were union and operational issues. I had a friend who was a conductor with Santa Fe at the time who went to Amtrak. They had the right to transfer back to Santa Fe holding seniority for a certain period of time (a year or two I think). The RRs were paying mileage, and Amtrak was going to pay hourly and establish longer crew districts. That meant longer hours for the same (or often less) pay.

This is all from memory as a regular Amtrak rider and follower from the time.

But the important thing to remember is that at the beginning, Amtrak didn't have any operational presence at all. The RRs just did what they had been doing servicing, ticketing and running trains, somebody else just paid all the expenses and kept what revenue there was. That only changed gradually.

Bottom line, everything on May 1 was pretty much the same as it was April 30. Except that there were a WHOLE lot fewer trains.

Thanks very much for the info, zephyr.

So it was really just a bunch of train cuts in 1971. The real "transition to Amtrak" took place in 1972, with the National Reservation System and Amtrak's acquisition of rolling stock to start the "Rainbow Era".

And T&E employees didn't move over until even later, after the Amfleets and Superliners were in use, after Amtrak acquired the NEC. It seems like during most of the Rainbow Era, Amtrak didn't employ any T&E employees. I wonder what happened to the Penn Central (& other bankrupt railroad) T&E employees; did they all have to transition to Conrail first and then to Amtrak later, or did they jump directly to Amtrak?

I have a hard copy of The Official Guide for 4/1971, the last one before Amtrak started. If anyone is curious about any particular routes, etc, let me know.

So Amtrak sent inspectors around to inspect the cars and select the best?

So then the book value of those cars was counted against the railroad's equity in Amtrak? Or was Amtrak simply alowed to keep whatever they wanted for free?

I would assume, that with there being little market for the large number of cars becoming surplus, that the RRs would consider themselves lucky to get Amtrak to take them on.

I have found the book Journey to Amtrak to be an excellent reference material containing everything that you ever wanted to know about the details of the transition to Amtrak. It is pricey and hard to find, but maybe you can find it in some library, perhaps through an inter-library loan program?

I have a copy sitting in one of the dozen boxes of books yet to be unpacked sitting in my garage, so unfortunately don;t have immediate access to it.

jis said:

I have found the book Journey to Amtrak to be an excellent reference material containing everything that you ever wanted to know about the details of the transition to Amtrak. It is pricey and hard to find, but maybe you can find it in some library, perhaps through an inter-library loan program?

I have a copy sitting in one of the dozen boxes of books yet to be unpacked sitting in my garage, so unfortunately don;t have immediate access to it.

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Jis - here are some for sale for less than $7.00

Thanks for the pointer Tom. Actually I already have a copy. So that is very useful info for those that wish to get a copy. It is worth it whether it is for $7 or $50 if this subject interests you.

cirdan said:

So Amtrak sent inspectors around to inspect the cars and select the best?

So then the book value of those cars was counted against the railroad's equity in Amtrak?

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I believe it was something like that. The "railroad's equity in Amtrak" was allowed to be realized in one of two ways: they could count against federal taxes, or it could get Amtrak common stock... almost everyone took the tax break (==real money), but some of the bankrupt and near-bankrupt railroads took the common stock, figuring that they'd never owe any taxes.

neroden said:

Thanks very much for the info, zephyr.

So it was really just a bunch of train cuts in 1971. The real "transition to Amtrak" took place in 1972, with the National Reservation System and Amtrak's acquisition of rolling stock to start the "Rainbow Era".

And T&E employees didn't move over until even later, after the Amfleets and Superliners were in use, after Amtrak acquired the NEC. It seems like during most of the Rainbow Era, Amtrak didn't employ any T&E employees. I wonder what happened to the Penn Central (& other bankrupt railroad) T&E employees; did they all have to transition to Conrail first and then to Amtrak later, or did they jump directly to Amtrak?

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Pretty much, except I was really speaking more of my experience on the West Coast. I think the T&E crews going to Amtrak on the Northeast Corrridor happened quickly at the aquisition, before the rest of the system. In fact, I think the experience of running their own crews there whetted Amtrak's appetite to control the crews and reduce labor expenses. I don't think where they were running on the host railroads whether or not the host road was in bankruptcy wasn't a factor in who employed the T&E crews. That was all bound up by union agreements and the cutover had to be negotiated with all the host railroads.

cirdan said:

So Amtrak sent inspectors around to inspect the cars and select the best?

So then the book value of those cars was counted against the railroad's equity in Amtrak? Or was Amtrak simply alowed to keep whatever they wanted for free?

I would assume, that with there being little market for the large number of cars becoming surplus, that the RRs would consider themselves lucky to get Amtrak to take them on.

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It actually counted against the required buy in to join Amtrak. The railroads had to pay a certain percentage of their passenger losses in order to join Amtrak. That could be paid in money or in kind with equipment. Amtrak selected the equipment and negotiated the value of the selected equipment with the railroads. Amtrak did not get everything they wanted, and example is Santa Fe's Big Dome lounge cars. Amtrak low-balled them, Santa Fe wouldn't accept their valuation and kept the cars. Some went to Auto-Train, and Santa Fe kept some. At least one is still in BNSF's business fleet today.

Amtrak did establish some branding on May 1. I remember LAUPT had pointless arrow placards all over the place, the cars had them pasted on the interior bulkheads. A week later the placards generally came down and things pretty much looked the way it had before. Except for things like the Union Pacific ticket windows were no longer staffed.

Edited to correct date.

Keep in mind, railroads like Penn Central only gave up intercity passenger service into Amtrak. They were still responsible for commuter trains for many big cities (Philadelphia, New York, Baltimore-Washington). This lasted into the Conrail era. I think Conrail dispersed all passenger operations sometime in 1983 to state agencies that took over operations. I am not sure if other railroads were in this same situation but I am sure Penn Central still needed to keep a fleet of passenger equipment for the commuter runs.

But Penn Central was already being subsidized quite heavily to run the Commuter service by then.

The first Amtrak employee's were the officers's hired by the appointed board of director's in late 1970, and soon their staff's and the bureacracy began at L'Effant Plaza.

After a brief period, the first employee's that Amtrak put aboard trains, were the Passenger Service Reps, who pretty much just went along for the ride, gave out Amtrak literature and souvenirs, answered questions, and filed a trip report to their supervision. They did not do any of the on-board-service function's, which continued with railroad employees for a few years.

Amtrak took over the Reservation operations first, in 1972, iirc. Next came the OBS and larger stations. The stations were generally taken over in 1973-1975. However, the last railroad staffed station (Meridian, Ms) did not become Amtrak staffed until 2001!.

The last T&E employees worked on the Cardinal and they lasted as CSX employees until the 1990's.

As someone already said, the station employees in larger stations were first followed by smaller stations. After that, into the 1980's there were a lot of small town stations that still had the railroad freight employees selling Amtrak tickets in their free times. (nothing like trying to purchase a ticket and the operator(usually) was busy copying train orders and could not or would not sell a ticket.)

The T&E employees outside the NEC were taken over starting in the mid 1980's, a little at a time. It was not uncommon for a route to have some crew districts operated by the railroad and some operated by Amtrak employees.

All of the Station and T&E employees who came to work for Amtrak were allowed to keep seniority with the railroad for up to 6 years. Many would return to the railroad just before the 6 years were up. At times, the railroads would recall the employees from Amtrak due to an upturn in business. If the employee did not return, they gave up their seniority and employment with the railroad.

I strongly recommend the book 'Journey to Amtrak'....... especially if it's available for $7.00 as Tom noted earlier.

It's mostly photojournalism with photos of trains in the final days and weeks of their private operation and then some Amtrak first-runs. Of real value are the maps showing before and after May 1 AND a railroad by railroad reference table as to which passenger trains they still operated on April 30...... and what became of them on May 1st.

Notelvis said:

I strongly recommend the book 'Journey to Amtrak'....... especially if it's available for $7.00 as Tom noted earlier.

It's mostly photojournalism with photos of trains in the final days and weeks of their private operation and then some Amtrak first-runs. Of real value are the maps showing before and after May 1 AND a railroad by railroad reference table as to which passenger trains they still operated on April 30...... and what became of them on May 1st.

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I agree....I just had to drag my copy out and reread it....very poignant memories....

Of course seeing that 'Journey to Amtrak' can be had for under $7.00, I'm afraid that I might be over-estimating the value of my entire collection!