How viable would an Amtrak line be from Chicago - Florida?

I recently drove from Kalamazoo, MI to Atlanta, GA (spent a night near Nashville en route). And then did the return drive up to Metro Detroit (spent a night in Knoxville, TN en route) via I-75. And eventually returned to Kalamazoo a day later. I was already pretty tired when I made the initial drive southbound from Kalamazoo down to metro Nashville (had to get an oil change in Ft. Wayne, IN first). The construction traffic in and around Louisville, KY was brutal that particular evening.

During the roundtrip drive, I saw the following: an unbelievable amount of Illinois license plates heading down thru Tennessee and into Atlanta (I too am originally from the Chicago area / Illinois), during the northbound reverse trip to Detroit I saw a ton of Ohio plates just about everywhere along the drive along with a nice representation of Michigan license plates. And just about EVERYWHERE up & down the entire trip in both directions there were always Florida plates that would pop up alongside the native Georgia plates, Tennessee plates & Kentucky plates while passing through those states.

What I'm trying to get at is that Chicago has to be the feeder for the 2nd largest snowbird market into Florida after NY/NJ. Folks in various Michigan cities, Milwaukee (WI), St. Louis, downstate IL can easily connect to the Midwest hub of Chicago. Additionally, you wouldn't believe the amount of folks I talk to that aren't especially fond of flying. Besides, plenty of retirees are in no "hurry" to zip down to Florida and wouldn't mind a relaxing train ride instead of flying or even driving. Can we finally get a rail line to connect these particular cities?:

Chicago - Indianapolis - Louisville - Nashville - Chattanooga - Atlanta - Tampa - Miami

Every single one of the cities mentioned above (with the possible exception of Chattanooga) is pretty sizable and it's a complete shame that Louisville & Nashville completely lack Amtrak service.

There used to be a Chicago-Florida route (the "Floridian") ; it was discontinued largely due to track deterioration. There's obviously demand for service, but assembling an appropriate route where the train could run at reasonable speeds is a more difficult matter.

By 1978 the Floridian was running in a stable manner. It died in 1979 as a result of Carter administration cuts, not over-the-road problems. Subsequently its route through Indiana was severed by abandonment. South of Louisville, the 1979 route is still viable. But nobody wants to reopen this route; everybody wants to reroute the train through Atlanta, and that raises all kinds of problems.

In any event, unless another train is discontinued to restart the Floridian, there are no passenger cars available, nor is there any funding for either start-up expenses (e.g. station reopening) or annual operating subsidy. Chicago-Florida is not going to happen.

Could happen if one or more states decided to back the project.

Unfortunately, the states along the way are Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Tennessee, (possibly Alabama), Georgia, and Florida. Illinois and Florida have other priorities. The rest of these states have been completely uninterested in passenger rail, or even hostile; Indiana won't fund anything except the South Shore Line, and none of the others will fund anything.

On paper, this is one of the most obvious holes in the Amtrak system. Chicago-Florida is one heck of a market, but in practice this would be a hard one to restart. We already know the problems of the Chicago-Indianapolis route. Indianapolis to Louisville would be another low-speed segment. South of Louisville, CSX is in great shape, but loaded with freight. CSX is usually in no mood to cooperate with any passenger proposals (or actual operations). The route to Atlanta crosses mountains resulting in low speeds. Atlanta is another problem. A new station would be a must.

Several years ago Amtrak floated a plan to have the CONO make a left turn at New Orleans and follow the Sunset East route to Florida points. That would seem to be a practical idea that would kill several birds at one time, but, like all long-distance plans, has gone nowhere with our do-nothing Congress.

So, yeah, Chicago-Florida is a great idea, but the actual execution would be very difficult.

Amtrak will continue to be an underfunded orphaned step-child until our government's elected and career leaders accept and support national rail travel as a Public Service. Unfortunately this acceptance must start with the voters at the ballot box.

For historical reference there used to be about six routes from the northwest to Florida points,most with more than one train

they were

Chicago Evansville Nashville Chattanooga Atlanta FLA

Chicago Indianapolis, Louisville Nashville Birmingham Montgomery FLA

Chicago (St Louis) Champagne Carbondale Birmingham Columbus FLA

Detroit Cleveland Great Lakes Cincinnati Lexington Chattanooga Atlanta Macon FLA

Detroit Chicago Cincinnati Knoxville Atlanta FLA

Kansas City Springfield Memphis Birmingham Atlanta FLA

and for good measure there was a train from Ashevlile NC to FLA and also from New Orleans to FLA

Setting aside any possibility of running via Atlanta, I believe CSX could accommodate the train Louisville-Birmingham without undue difficulty. The only two viable options south of Birmingham are the 1979 route and a route over NS (B'ham-Columbus-Macon-Jacksonville). The main problem with the 1979 route is that Montgomery-Waycross is 300 miles of dark territory, and eventually this would need PTC... a very expensive proposition. Furthermore this line has been maintained to 40 mph standards since 1979. The NS route is 50 mph Birmingham-Columbus (although signaled) and is dark Columbus-Macon (another PTC exposure). Macon-Jacksonville is fast but it hasn't seen a passenger train since 1970, and it's a very busy line. Also the NS route would require wyeing the train at Birmingham but there's no convenient place to do that.

Chicago-New Orleans-Jacksonville and then into Florida would be an awfully slow trip.

Probably the fastest route from Chicago to Florida is a version of the City of Miami route (the original route is no longer in existance).

CNIC - Chicago to Memphis

BNSF - Memphis to Birmingham

CSX - Birmingham to Florida (via Manchester)

Alternate route would be south of Birmngham:

NS - Birmingham to Atlanta (Crescent route)

NS - South via Macon to Jacksonville

CSX - Jacksonville south

Although this would not serve Nashville, Louisville or Indianapolis, it would be faster and in pre Amtrak days, The City of Miami was the most popular train running a full / long train until the last day.

Hytec said:

Amtrak will continue to be an underfunded orphaned step-child until our government's elected and career leaders accept and support national rail travel as a Public Service. Unfortunately this acceptance must start with the voters at the ballot box.

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This may be the most profound and accurate statement by a guest poster in the history of the internet.
Well done, stranger!

NS has been much more willing to work with Amtrak (look at the recent Norfolk and Lynchburg routes as an example.. are there any new CSX routes?).

So I think Cincinnati - Lexington - Knoxville - Chattanooga - Atlanta - would be the best bet... this is also a particularly scenic line and the track is in great shape. (anyone know the options of getting to Cincy? Route of the Cardinal or does a better line exist?)

I've long thought that Ed Ellis (Iowa Pacific / Pullman) should run a Chicago - Florida Train... he's got the train sets and he's convinced mainlines to let him run it. I'm not saying it would be easy... but if anyone could do it Ed Ellis could.

You'll never get CSX to take a passenger train via Manchester, whether it's from Atlanta or Birmingham. Nor will CSX or NS take a passenger train into Atlanta from the north. Plus the Atlanta station is in the wrong place (so is the proposed one).

BNSF Memphis-Birmingham has merit, but the train would require a backup move to reach the Amtrak station in Birmingham. Birmingham-Atlanta-Macon is very congested, and the station in Atlanta is still in the wrong place, and NS would demand a lot of money to fix up the ex-CofG between Atlanta and Macon, and at Macon the train would be pointed in the wrong direction unless it avoids downtown entirely, and you can't get to the Amtrak station in Jacksonville from NS without a long backup move. The train could run NS Macon-Jesup instead and then access CSX, but Macon-Jesup is another long stretch of dark territory.

NS won't take a passenger train from the North? says who? I really dislike when people just say "this will never happen" as though they have a crystal ball. You don't. You don't know anything for sure. It would be apparent that CSX is against new Amtrak routes more so than NS though.

What we DO know... is that NS has told Amtrak that no more trains can serve the current Atlanta station (it's in the Crescent report) so yes a new station in Atlanta would be something to deal with.

Do you know how many people told me I would never see a NS Steam special again? That it absolutely would not happen? Never say never...

I shall direct you to my comment at this post: http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/25585-chicago-to-florida/?p=142357 , & to the "Travel to Florida" thread. See this link, as well: http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/24943-travel-to-florida/?p=134395

I don't know that the sun will rise in the east tomorrow, but I'm so sure of it that it doesn't make sense to admit any other possibility.

Your analogy of a steam program doesn't hold up. NS has a steam program -- which is quite unlike the pre-1995 program -- simply because Moorman wanted one. When he retires, the steam program will up for review. If the next CEO has the attitude of Goode, the program will end and it won't be difficult for NS to pull the plug. But an agreement with Amtrak to operate a passenger train will require multi-year contracts to be signed, and labor agreements, and on and on. It's not easy for NS to get out of a deal like that if they decide that it's unfavorable. I stand by my "never". I've been hearing this stuff about Southern/NS over the Georgia Division for 30+ years.

xyzzy said:

I don't know that the sun will rise in the east tomorrow, but I'm so sure of it that it doesn't make sense to admit any other possibility.

Your analogy of a steam program doesn't hold up. NS has a steam program -- which is quite unlike the pre-1995 program -- simply because Moorman wanted one. When he retires, the steam program will up for review. If the next CEO has the attitude of Goode, the program will end and it won't be difficult for NS to pull the plug. But an agreement with Amtrak to operate a passenger train will require multi-year contracts to be signed, and labor agreements, and on and on. It's not easy for NS to get out of a deal like that if they decide that it's unfavorable. I stand by my "never". I've been hearing this stuff about Southern/NS over the Georgia Division for 30+ years.

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I totally agree with your statement on the Steam Program... my analogy is not perfect I agree.. but still people told me "it will never happen"if it's a long term program or not it still happened. (my point was never say never...).

Trust me I don't see it happening anytime soon.. I just don't think it's this great impossibility.

The new Atlanta station location problem can be solved only if the station is built with a loop to reverse direction. That would be like the Richmond Broad Street station was built.

It would have significantly less ridership and revenue, and higher expenses, than the corridor services that could be funded for the same capital investment or even likely that of putting the money into existing long distance routes. Amtrak is extremely unlikely to ever bring back a long distance route or create a new one.

There needs to be a strong reality check on run time. ALL of these routes are cross-grain to the southern end of the Appalachians. As a result they are curvey and slow.

The best practical pre-Amtrak run times for a few of these segments, given in no particular order, were:

(I say pre Amtrak because since that time superelevation and with it speed limits have been reduced on many curves and the push to do all practical to make schedule is no more. Current practical scehdule times will be longer by varying amounts from 15 minutes to over an hour.)

Chicago-Memphis: 10 hours

Memphis-Birmingham: 6 hours

Birmingham-Atlanta: 4hours

Atlanta-Macon: 2 hours

Macon-Jacksonville: 7 hours (much of this is dark)

I am not going to try to guess Chicago to Louisville or Cincinatti

Cincinatti-Atlanta:

via CSX (ex L&N): 14 hours

via NS (ex Southern): 14 hours - this may still be practical due to the major rebuilds on the "rathole" in the 1960's

Louisville-Nashville: 3.5 hours

Nashville-Birmingham: 4 hours

Nashville-Atlanta: 6 hours - be surprised if this could be done in much under 8 today

Atlanta-Jacksonville (via CSX): 8 hours - maybe 9.

Chcago-Nashville: 9 hours

In its best days the Georgian made Chicago to Atlanta in 15 hours. In it's last good days it was more like 16 to 17 hours.

There are many problems with running Chicago to Florida. The biggest one is too much freight for not enough track.

Cities that should be served are numerous: Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Louisville, Nashville, Chattanooga. No such route. If you try to serve most

of them, you are left with Indy, Cincinnati and Chattanooga or Indianapolis, Louisville, Nashville and Chattanooga. The most likely to

happen would be via Cincinnati. Or a train via the C&EI, which skips Indy and Louisville. Remember, though, both of those will have the problem

the Cardinal has in getting out of Chicago. I still say via Memphis will be the best. Yes, there would be a back up move in Birmingham but

it is a very short and simple move.

In Atlanta, the proposed site of the new station is just west of the current station on the Crescent route. If and when it is built, it will have room for

1 or 2 extra tracks for Florida train. BUT, it will mean a backup move at Howell interlocking and both the CSX and NS will not go for this. There will not be room for a loop track. The only logical route that would not have meant a backup move there via the original Southern route downtown (via Piedmont park) was abandoned within the last 10 years. So, without that line, there can never be a downtown station as has been planned. The railroads will simply not allow backup moves or wyeing of trains downtown. So, you can see, it will be messy, at best in Atlanta.

If a solution can be found, there is the problem of how to run south of Atlanta. NS has two routes to Macon. The Southern line is busy freight line and the C of Ga line is not currently in condition to run more than 10 - 30mph. The state has for years wanted to buy this line, but hasn't yet. The Southern line would be best as it is a straight shot through Macon Terminal. The C of Ga line would require a back up move or run the loop south of town if going via Savannah. The line to Savannah is, though dark territory. The line via Jesup is also dark. The other Southern line is block signal. It goes downtown to Beaver Street, so if the Amtrak station ever gets relocated back there, then there is no problem. Otherwise, a train would have to either backup to the station or go through some nasty industrial track to get to the CSX. The CSX line south of Atlanta is one of CSX's busiest. Even if CSX agreed to run a train that way, you could expect a lot of delay. One route that might work would be via Augusta into South Carolina and down to Savannah. The AOE train ran many trips this way about 10 years ago. But, again, part of this line is dark.

The fastest route, not through Atlanta, and with some room for a passenger train would be Chicago-Memphis-Birmingham-Columbus(Ga)-Macon-Savannah-florida. Only two sections are dark, Columbus-Ft. Valley(Ga) and Macon-Savannah. This route actually is rather flat and straight for most of it. It isn't going to happen, but from the perspective of being able to run, this would be the best to me.

About the only practical way in today's world you could get Chicago to Florida service is to run the Capitol to Florida via Washington. Amtrak had made a half hearted attempt at one time to run a thru car or two, I think, but obviously didn't continue it. The DC-Florida segment would replace the current Star or Meteor. Chicago to Washington and Washington to Jacksonville (Meteor schedule) both around 16+ hours, or 32+ . The times George Harris shows above indicate a more direct routing via Memphis might be around 29 hours with lots of new train miles and track modifications required, plus a cooperative NS or CSX.

The current Capitol schedule is almost a connection to the Star in Washington, so schedule modification would be required. Yes it would break the through service from New York (unless another Transdorm was plugged in for a Viewliner sleeper and coach from NY), but this is the only Amtrak LD route that has the luxury of two a day service so NY passengers could still get a one seat ride to Florida (and still two a day on the Palmetto to Savannah). While this would be two night out service (like many of the western routes), I believe the Floridian at one time had a two night schedule. It would require more Superliner cars so some of the single level ones that were not needed would have to replace another service, like the CONO, that used the Superliners.

Perhaps this could be done on a six month trial basis during the winter to see if there really was a Florida market for Chicago snowbirds.

For all the reasons that have been identified, Amtrak had it right in 1979 -- and were it not for budget cuts, there would still be a Chicago-Florida train running over the L&N/ACL Birmingham-Montgomery-Waycross-Jacksonville. (What would have ensued north of Birmingham because of the problem in Indiana is anyone's guess, although I suspect the answer would have been Chicago-Evansville-Nashville-Birmingham). But with PTC already clouding restoral of the Sunset Limited between Pensacola and Chattahoochee, I doubt Amtrak wants another exposure on PTC between Montgomery and Waycross.

At present there is close to zero chance of getting either the necessary Superliners or the necessary single levels to convert a Superliner train to single level, given the shortage of Amfleets. So in short this is a complete non-starter at present. Besides given the excellent OTP (not!) of the Capitol Limited, why would anyone want to clobber the east coast service carrying the burden of the silliness between Chicago and the East Coast anyway? No one in the know and in their right mind books a connection from the Cap to the Star these days anyway.

xyzzy said:

By 1978 the Floridian was running in a stable manner. It died in 1979 as a result of Carter administration cuts, not over-the-road problems.

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To dig into this a little deeper (sigh), the Carter cuts were done in a manner which has been done again subsequently -- the cutters, going for easy targets, aimed their guns at the routes which had been "performing worst" over the last few years, using data which was already out of date. The troubles which the Floridian had leading up to 1977 made it a target. You don't want your train service to be having a bad couple of years shortly before the cutters get to you; given the presumably-temporary mess on the CL, LSL, and EB this year, it's particularly important that we don't get a cut-happy Congress for the next couple of years.

The bottom line for me regarding Chicago-Florida service: Any reinstatement of a Chicago-Florida route would require track/route capital improvements of some sort; pretty much all passenger rail capital improvements have been state-led for decades now (even on the NEC and even when funding is federal); and the states along the route are simply not likely to lead on passenger rail of any sort. They won't even fund local urban rail.

If there's some big political shift in Indiana, or Kentucky, or Tennessee, or (very unlikely) Georgia and the governor or legislature becomes all gung-ho pro-passenger-rail, then we might see something happen. From what I've been reading, Tennessee is the most likely of the bunch, with active movements for passenger rail expansion (of various sorts) in Memphis, Nashville, and Chattanooga. Things could shift politically in Indiana as well, though the forces of hostility to passenger rail are pretty powerful in that state's legislature. Kentucky seems to have no activity or interest at all, while in Georgia the forces of active hostility to passenger rail are in firm control.

My political analysis, therefore, is that the way forward is to back the advocates in Tennessee and Indiana, try to get some support going in Kentucky, and worry about crossing the Black Hole of Georgia later.

Cincinnati all the way south to Atlanta is in excellent shape. No issue with speeds on that line.

What about Chattanooga to BMH? This avoids the Atlanta mess but is BMH to Florida route doable?

Sure it's blue sky but it's fun to dream.