History Question

I was just wondering how sparse passenger train services had become, in the two or three years preceding the opening of Amtrak? Because I just read about a train trip in 1969, and it seems like the author still had quite a few options. I thought it would be otherwise. Did Amtrak restore or eliminate more trains when it first opened? Did a lot of great trains and stations die that day, or were most already gone? Was there a lot of bickering over what to save and what to let go? I'm sure there are books about it, but maybe someone has the short answer. Where were you on Amtrak Day?

Here is an interesting map resource that may answer your question

http://greatergreaterwashington.org/post/10282/the-evolution-of-amtrak-1971-2011/

It would seem there was a massive elimination of trains in the years preceding Amtrak, but at its formation, further routes were closed.

Thanks for that link. I like what those guys prepared.

Dave

cirdan said:

Here is an interesting map resource that may answer your question

http://greatergreaterwashington.org/post/10282/the-evolution-of-amtrak-1971-2011/

It would seem there was a massive elimination of trains in the years preceding Amtrak, but at its formation, further routes were closed.

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I was alive and well, born in 1944 and I agree with this answer

.Do you have any specific routes in mind?

In the mid 50's my native Chattanooga had about 11 a day each direction total 22, On Amtrak day just one was left and it was dropped then. I rode the last train out of town.

Others had gone out in 1968, 1970 etc

About half the passenger trains still running on A-day minus one were discontinued, but most were carrying very few passengers by that time. I don't recall the exact numbers, but I think something like 80 to 90% of the passenger counts on A-day minus one were still there on A-day plus one.

Part of the Amtrak concept was that it would somehow make passenger train operations profitable. Most people with any knowledge of the reality of the situation felt that this was no more than a fictional political promise having no connection with reality that was needed to get the bill passed. After all, if the railroad companies could not make it work, how did anybody expect that adding a layer or two of bureaucracy and improving the service quality, hence increasing the cost of operations make passenger trains profitable?

Very true George. Actually it is somewhat astounding as to how well Amtrak is positioned financially at this point in time, at least to me. It is way beyond anything that I had expected say in the early 90s, when we were busily walking into yet another crisis at Amtrak.

I too was born in 1944 ( when dinasours still roamed the earth) and it was sad to see how the Class Is, whether intentionally or not, had let their Passenger Trains deteriorate and disappear!

I was glad that two of the Railroads that were well known for taking pride in their Passenger Trains, Santa Fe and the Southern, had maintained first class service up to "A Day" and continued to run their"Crack" Trains until economics made it necessary to let Amtrak take over their best Trains/routes! (Today's SWC and Crescent)

I was working in Texas on "A Day" and was in a City with no Train Service left so didn't get to ride an Amtrak " "Rainbow Train" until I returned to WAS and rode on what is now the NEC from WAS to/from NYC,PHL and BOS!! I also continued to ride the Southern run Crescent to SC to visit my dad, enjoyed the overnight trips in a Slumber Coach and eating in the Diners which were still run the old fashioned way with good food and first class service!!

Also its great to see our resident expert on Southern Trains, Bill H, back on AU!

Many trains were much shorter at the the end of operations

For example,the remnant of the Georgian,the last train thru Chattanooga, was 2 or 3 cars long at the end

It had been 12 to 15 cars long before that,

The fun years started going out by early 60s more or less

What is the green route on the early 70s map that is the present day Crescent? Why was that not Amtrak at first?

Also from my present location in Athens, GA, I was amazed to see so many trains going every which way out of Atlanta. And then it just…DIED?!

I find it interesting that so many of the routes we should have now we did have before. How do things regress so much so quickly? Driving from Athens to ATL is asinine. That's an example of a very simple route that should definitely exist as a kind of regional/commuter system. Atlanta's driving situation is horrendous (remember the "snow" last year?)!

and then there are the routes amtrak ran at the start but later discontinued. the desert wind, the pioneer and the north coast hiawatha are three that come to mind here in the west

northnorthwest said:

What is the green route on the early 70s map that is the present day Crescent? Why was that not Amtrak at first?

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Southern didn't join Amtrak

yarrow said:

and then there are the routes Amtrak ran at the start but later discontinued. the desert wind, the pioneer and the north coast Hiawatha are three that come to mind here in the west

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Desert Wind, Pioneer and North Coast Hiawatha were not part of the system on A-Day or even A-Day + 1. North Coast Hiawatha was added first within a year or two. Pioneer was added around 77/78, and Desert Wind was added soon thereafter.
OTOH, on A-Day there was Broadway Limited and National Limited, both of which are no more. There was no Lake Shore Limited, which is now going strong. Another train that was present on A-Day that is no more is Texas Chief/Lone Star. OTOH, there was no Texas Eagle or even just Eagle on A-Day, and Texas Eagle is relatively stable now.

I would add that the SCL also maintained first class service until the end. By the end of the 60's, there were still 5 trains NY to FL with 4 carrying multiple sleepers, lounge and diner. Business was booming.

northnorthwest said:

What is the green route on the early 70s map that is the present day Crescent? Why was that not Amtrak at first?

Also from my present location in Athens, GA, I was amazed to see so many trains going every which way out of Atlanta. And then it just…DIED?!

I find it interesting that so many of the routes we should have now we did have before. How do things regress so much so quickly? Driving from Athens to ATL is asinine. That's an example of a very simple route that should definitely exist as a kind of regional/commuter system. Atlanta's driving situation is horrendous (remember the "snow" last year?)!

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As Alexandra Nick pointed out, Southern did not join Amtrak until 1978. D&RGW and Rock Island also did not join in 1971, D&RGW finally did join in 1983 and Rock Island went bankrupt in 1979.

The "penalty" for not joining was that no train-off petitions would be heard by the ICC until 1975 for railroads not joining Amtrak and all intercity passenger trains operated by those railroads would be required to keep running at least until then.

And yes, they just died, or more accurately the remaining intercity passenger services were executed on May 1, 1971. Any trains not included in the Amtrak national system were discontinued on that date and only about half the trains were picked up by Amtrak.

On the brighter side, it was very, very doubtful that most intercity passenger trains would have survived past 1975 or so had some legislation saving them had not passed. It just would have been more incremental and not one huge cut that happened on A-Day.

Santa Fe was the king of passenger trains. It kept high standards right up to Amtrak. It almost atayed out now joining until ten days before a-day. The president at the time, the great late John Reed, thought the insurance was too much. In 1967 due to pulling of first class mail, half of ATSF trains stopped runing.

After the huge heroic effort American Railroads ran during World War II, the post-war years started the mostly steady decline in railroads market share of transportation to the airline and the automobile, especially after the advent of turnpikes, interstate highways, and jetliner's. Even the new postwar period streamliner's and domeliner's could not save the industry. The biggest blow came in the late sixties, when the carriage of first class mail was almost totally removed from passenger trains. And shortly after, the end of the Railway Express Agency. Railroads were in deep red ink running passenger trains, and sought government relief from having to run them.

That is how the Act that created Amtrak came about.

*

There was at least one new route that came about on Amtrak Day, that previously had been freight-only, (at least for a long time)....that was the re- routing of the Washington section of the Broadway Limited over the former PRR "Port Road", via Safe Harbor, between Baltimore and Harrisburg.

Can anyone think of any other's like that?

zephyr17 said:

And yes, they just died, or more accurately the remaining intercity passenger services were executed on May 1, 1971. Any trains not included in the Amtrak national system were discontinued on that date and only about half the trains were picked up by Amtrak.

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Caveat: the definition of "intercity" was super-vague. Anything which was being subsidized by a state government already (pre-1971) was instead referred to as "commuter rail" regardless of the length or the market (South Bend to Chicago, Philadelphia to Quakerstown...)
As a result there were in fact a bunch of additional passenger trains between cities which continued to be operated by the "freight" railroads, with state subsidies. Most of these were transferred wholesale to the state government "commuter rail" agencies in 1983 (as part of a "get Conrail out of passenger trains" law), with some in the Midwest and California being transferred at other dates.

The question was asked "Where were you.....?"

For me, the whole issue revolved around B&O passenger service. I took a bus (HORRORS!) from Chicago to Huntington WV a few days before A-day and rode B&O's mixed passenger+freight train to Parkersburg WV because there was absolutely no doubt that that train wasn't going to survive. Then I took another bus to Akron to visit family for a couple days. On A-day, I was on the last westbound run of B&O's Capitol Limited to Chicago. Next day, all passenger service on the B&O mainline was gone. Washington - Chicago service was provided by a connection from Washington to Harrisburg on the PRR. Some years later, service returned to the B&O. Everything was in a state of flux for several years, with numerous route changes.

Tom

And as a bit of interesting trivia, up until just before A-Day Amtrak was known as Railpax.

I was 'converted' to railfan a little later than most (around 1968), so got a late start in the game. So when Amtrak Day became inevitable, I began a campaign of riding what was left "While I Could", to paraphrase an advertisement run by the Burlington, Rio Grande, and Western Pacific, with the impending doom of their original California Zephyr. I rode it and other 'endangered species'. such as the N&W Wabash Cannonball, the UP Butte Special, the PC Washington Buffalo Express, the EL Lake Cities, the B&O Capitol Limited, and several others, especially in that frenzied final month before A-Day.

On A-Day, I was in the depths of NYP, to see the departure of Metroliner 101, under the new regime....

railiner said:

I rode it and other 'endangered species'. such as the N&W Wabash Cannonball, the UP Butte Special

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You rode the Butte Special? Wasn't that the one that had an old 12-section sleeper, two sections of which had been converted into a little kitchen where the porter fried up steaks on a hot plate? How was it? For reasons I can't explain, I wish that I had been around back in the day, and could have ridden the Olympian Hiawatha and transferred to the Butte Special.

Ispolkom said:

railiner said:

I rode it and other 'endangered species'. such as the N&W Wabash Cannonball, the UP Butte Special

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You rode the Butte Special? Wasn't that the one that had an old 12-section sleeper, two sections of which had been converted into a little kitchen where the porter fried up steaks on a hot plate? How was it? For reasons I can't explain, I wish that I had been around back in the day, and could have ridden the Olympian Hiawatha and transferred to the Butte Special.

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Unfortunately, back in those day's, my finances did not permit me to "indulge" in much Pullman travel, so I did not get to sample the glories of that car, even in a section.

By the way, that car wasn't originally a twelve section, but was a "4-6-6", four bedroom, six section, 6 roomette before two sections were removed to install the tiny buffet. The two converted were either the American View, or the American General.

We all know that improved highways and airports hurt the train. And has been explained the loss of the mail contract also hurt.

It can also be pointed out that the interstate highway system helped the competing bus as well as the car. Before you knew it a lot of buses were faster than a lot of trains.

I think you make a good point. Where were you on Amtrak day one?

dnsommer2013 said:

I think you make a good point. Where were you on Amtrak day one?

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I was on the remnant of the L&N Georgian from Chattanooga to Atlanta.. I returned to Chattanooga that night on Geryhound,an hour faster.