Really just a random thoughts thread...

Lots of miscellaneous thoughts that came randomly to me this morning, so I thought I'd write them down and see where this thread goes.

It's primarily a question about New Hampshire. NH seems to have quite a void in rail service. Maine gets the Downeaster along it's Atlantic Coast with two stops in the Granite State, and the Vermonter gets its course right up the Connecticut River with only one true stop in NH at Claremont.

Why no comprehensive service in New Hampshire? Interestingly, in this article, four of the top six scenic railroads in the Northeast are in New Hampshire.

I thought about this because I was considering a trip to Mount Washington and taking the train up there. But Amtrak doesn't even really come close.

Any other ideas for "high" elevation camping accessible by Amtrak in New England?

While I was perusing the Route Guide for the Vermonter, I noticed that it runs from St. Albans to Washington, DC. Is there that much demand from Vermont for a one seat ride to DC? That makes this train sorta like the Palmetto of the North.

The route guide also is home to the Ethan Allen Express. How much of the Ethan Allen is funded by Vermont for its three stops in their state?

I miss living in Texas and New Mexico and our trips to Colorado to camp in the Summer. I would love to start a new tradition in our family on the East Coast, and I'd LOVE to do it by rail.

I can only answer the questions regarding New Hampshire - the actual rails in most parts would need LOTS of work to be serviceable, having been dormant for many years. My guess is that as nice as it would be to have rail service to or even beyond Mt Washington, the cost of the work to make it happen would be enormous with big question marks on a return on investment.

Well, yes. Finances are perhaps the greatest barrier. That's pretty much a given. I'm just wondering if there was any sort of rail legacy that could have been maintained?

Are there no Class I railroads that operate through the heart of New Hampshire?

What do you mean by high elevation camping? Do you want backpacking type camping - like back country? The problem is finding something accessible by rail.

In case you have ever heard of the "hut" system, these are pretty cool. I know a bunch of friends who have planned trips and stayed in these along the way.

http://www.outdoors.org/lodging/huts/

VentureForth said:

Well, yes. Finances are perhaps the greatest barrier. That's pretty much a given. I'm just wondering if there was any sort of rail legacy that could have been maintained?

Are there no Class I railroads that operate through the heart of New Hampshire?

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Do you mean something going north/south or going east/west? there really aren't even good roads (for example there are NO interstates) that go east/west that are north of the Mass Pike (I-90).

I like full facility camping as opposed to primitive camping (showers, little general store, etc). I guess when I say High Elevation I really mean something cooler than 80 during the day in July. Granted, that's even tough in Colorado, but the low humidity helps.

I went to NH a lot in the '50s and '60s (grew up in Vermont). There were no passenger railroads even then, other than the scenics. Seems like there was once a railroad that ended up in the White Mountains, but it's a very long time gone.

As for camping, the Vermonter stops in Waterbury, which is pretty much the heart of the Green Mountains, and I know that Vermont in general has pretty good public transit buses, but I do not know the specifics of routes that might take you past trailheads or campgrounds. The Long Trail (along the spine of the Green Mountains) crosses the freeway, Winooski River, and rail line between Waterbury and Burlington (Essex stop).

Ahh! I remember now -- there was once a "ski train" to North Conway NH, but I believe that was the terminus -- not even a railbed over Pinkham Notch beyond North Conway.

VentureForth said:

I like full facility camping as opposed to primitive camping (showers, little general store, etc). I guess when I say High Elevation I really mean something cooler than 80 during the day in July. Granted, that's even tough in Colorado, but the low humidity helps.

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Oh you want car camping. If you are looking for cooler than 80 during the day in July I would suggest going to coastal Maine. The sea breezes are generally quite cool and its often lovely and below 80. Take the downeaster to Brunswick than transfer to the tourist railroad that goes up to Rockland (the Maine Eastern Railroad).

http://www.maineeasternrailroad.com/

Or rent a car in Brunswick and travel up to Phippsburg (about half an hour away). I always wanted to go to Hermit Island.

http://www.hermitisland.com/

Or camp at Popham Beach.

http://www.oceanviewparkpophammaine.com/

There has been some level of planning for the Capital Corridor (Capital with an "a" as opposed to the Capitol Corridor in California), which would run Boston-Concord via Lowell, Nashua, and Manchester with multiple frequencies a day. I haven't followed the situation really closely, but it seems that NH conducts some planning, then state politics changes and planning is halted, then state politics changes and planning resumes - at least something like that.

There was also a study of Boston-Montreal service maybe 10-15 years ago, but that is a largely dormant proposal at this point.

And then there are a couple of proposals for extending MBTA commuter rail service into southern NH (Haverhill - Plaistow, primarily for a new layover yard, as I understand things; and Lowell-Nashua-Manchester).

VentureForth said:

Why no comprehensive service in New Hampshire?

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Attitude!
During the last 20 years,

* Vermont aggressively expanded passenger rail service (with some cutbacks during the Douglas administration)

* Maine aggressively expanded passenger rail service

* Massachusetts aggressively expanded passenger rail service

* Connecticut aggressively expanded passenger rail service

* New Hampshire managed to refuse to pay for the very first and most obvious expansion plan.

The plan I refer to is the extension of the MBTA's "Lowell line" (aka "New Hampshire Main Line") to Nashua, Manchester, and Concord. The NH government just won't pay for even the smallest expansion. It's been on the table as a plan since the early 1980s.

New Hampshire doesn't fund the Downeaster, either. (Though the localities put in something for the stations.)

Basically, the state government won't pay for passenger rail. There have been some major political shifts in the state's politics over the last decade, so this might change; if it does, Nashua will be the first to get service.

While I was perusing the Route Guide for the Vermonter, I noticed that it runs from St. Albans to Washington, DC. Is there that much demand from Vermont for a one seat ride to DC? That makes this train sorta like the Palmetto of the North.

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I don't know; the demand to NYC is large and there's no reason not to run it through.

The route guide also is home to the Ethan Allen Express. How much of the Ethan Allen is funded by Vermont for its three stops in their state?

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Most of it, I believe. NY pays something.

I forgot about Popham Beach and Fox Island! I loved going there and walking out to the island - just be sure to return before the tide comes in or it'll be a long night!

neroden said:

While I was perusing the Route Guide for the Vermonter, I noticed that it runs from St. Albans to Washington, DC. Is there that much demand from Vermont for a one seat ride to DC? That makes this train sorta like the Palmetto of the North.

Click to expand...

I don't know; the demand to NYC is large and there's no reason not to run it through.

Click to expand...

I can't help but wonder if there is that much thru traffic where one-seat to DC is important (unless, of course, this train is in existence for the pleasure of Vermont politicians to get back and forth to work). If they cut it back to NYP could they double the frequency on the Northern half of the route?

VentureForth said:

I can't help but wonder if there is that much thru traffic where one-seat to DC is important (unless, of course, this train is in existence for the pleasure of Vermont politicians to get back and forth to work). If they cut it back to NYP could they double the frequency on the Northern half of the route?

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No. Put it this way: the Vermonter is occupying a slot which would be occupied by a Regional if the Vermonter wasn't running. Vermont doesn't pay for the DC-NY part of the run.

I might be able to help out with camping options on the Amtrak routes in VT, I think. I have lived in VT for 43 years, an avid camper, and the State Parks in our state are outstanding, if I do say so myself. Pretty much every developed campground in the VT State Park system has hot showers (pay), flush toilets, potable water spigots, and firewood available at site. There are parks that have some primitive sites with no services, and of course the hiking trails are abundant here in VT, and some have shelters or dispersed camping areas (free) available for overnight camping on the trails or in the National Forests. I'll just cover the State Parks in this post though, otherwise we'd be here all day listing out all the amazing camping options in our beautiful Green Mountains. On to the routes/camping options:

Ethan Allen:

Castleton, VT - About 5 miles from the Amtrak station is Bomoseen State Park (click here for info/interactive park map/reservations), there are convenience stores and restaurants in a 5 mile radius from the park. Bomoseen park is right on the lake and is very nice, some wooded sites and some open sites, and even a few waterfront ones. They also have a snack bar and boat rentals at the beach. I believe there is a public transit bus that runs through here (The Bus) for Castleton State College, but not sure of where the stops are.

Rutland, VT - The Amtrak station in Rutland is in the main downtown area, it's actually right next door to a Walmart plaza. The same public transit bus (The Bus) runs out of downtown to pretty much anywhere you would want to go in the Rutland County area. One of the routes goes up over Mendon Mtn to Killington and intersects the Long Trail, so hiking is pretty big in this area. There is Gifford Woods State Park (click here for info/interactive park map/reservations) in Killington, a short walk down Rte 100 from the intersection of Rte 4 and 100 where the bus runs. Gifford is a very nice park also, they even have cabins available there, as well as the usual tent sites and lean to sites. There is a small-ish pond across the street from the park for boating, fishing and swimming. There is a convenience store at the intersection of Rte 4 and 100, and some restaurants about a mile away in the Killington resort area.

Vermonter:

Brattleboro, Vt - About a mile from the Brattleboro Amtrak station is Fort Dummer State Park (click here for info/interactive park map/reservations). I haven't actually been to this park, so I can't give you first hand details. There's no lake/pond at this park, but there is a short trail that goes direct to a local swimming hole. About 2-3 miles from the park is the downtown area with shopping, restaurants and the like.

Bellows Falls, VT - There are no State Parks close to this station. Townshend State Park (click here for info/interactive park map/reservations) is about 40 minutes away (driving) and Jamaica State Park (click here for info/interactive park map/reservations) is about an hour away (driving). I haven't been to Townshend, but have been to Jamaica and thought it was one of the best campgrounds I have ever been to. It sits right on the West River and they have lean to sites that are right next to the river, so nice to listen to while laying in your tent at night. But I think the only way to get there would be to rent a car.

Claremont, NH - The Amtrak station here is in a relatively residential area, the shopping centers and downtown area are a few miles away. The closest VT State Park is Wilgus Park (click here for info/interactive park map/reservations) about 10 miles away. This park sits right on the Connecticut River, so very popular for boating and fishing. Canoe and kayaks are available at the park. They have cabins at this park as well. Also close by is Mt. Ascutney State Park (click here for info/interactive park map/reservations) that has a campground as well and features many hiking options.

Windsor, VT - See Claremont, NH above. Windsor is about 10-12 miles (10-15 minutes) Northwest of Claremont, so same camping options for this stop.

White River Jct, VT - Quechee Gorge State Park (click here for info/interactive park map/reservations) is the closest park to the WRJ station about 6-8 miles away. This park is right on Vermont's deepest gorge, and is pretty cool to see, and has great boating, fishing and swimming as well as hiking/walking trails through and around the gorge. The gorge is one of the more "touristy" areas of VT, but still fun to see and there are plenty of amenities nearby.

Randolph, VT - This station is right "downtown" in Randolph, but there aren't any camping options right close by. Good place to stop en route for supplies as stores are right next to the station. Oh, there is a Chinese food restaurant across the street from the station that will bring you a takeout order right to the platform if you call ahead though, that's pretty cool! LOL! Otherwise, the closest State Park is Silver Lake Park (click here for info/interactive park map/reservations), and although that park is absolutely beautiful, it's about 20 miles away and Rte 12 to the park is closed for bridge construction from that side this summer, so the detour would be a bit longer.

Montpelier, VT - Our State Capital! And the smallest state capital in the United States. The train station here is a bit off the beaten path though, it's about 2-4 miles to the downtown area and the Capital Building from the station. The closest state campgrounds here are the Groton State Forest group of parks (Stillwater, Kettle Pond, Ricker Pond, New Discovery and Big Deer), but those are about 30 miles/40 minutes away. Absolutely gorgeous parks and lake I must say. The bonus with Groton Forest is that if you are camping at one park, admission is free to all other Groton parks, so there is quite a bit to explore here.

Waterbury, VT - The station here is right on Main St in Waterbury, and Little River State Park (click here for info/interactive park map/reservations) is a little over 5 miles from the station. Another beautiful park, right on Waterbury Reservoir for swimming, fishing and boating. They also have the camping cabins at this park. Close by is Ben and Jerry's ice cream factory and Cold Hollow Cider Mill, and about 20 miles away is Stowe, a big "touristy" area with all kinds of activities and food options.

Essex Jct, VT - No State Park camping options *real* close by here. There is Underhill State Park about 30-40 minutes to the Northeast and Mt Philo State Park about 30-40 minutes to the Southwest. There are probably many more private camping options here due to the proximity to Burlington, VT (our biggest city) and Lake Champlain.

St Albans, VT - Ok, this is where it gets FUN! LOL! A mere 6-7 miles from the Amtrak station is Burton Island State Park (click here for info/interactive park map/reservations), this place should be on everyone's bucket list! This is a private island in Lake Champlain that is only accessible by boat, and the entire island is a State Park for tent camping only. It has all the amenities of the main land parks, including showers and a park store/food service area. You can take a 10 min ferry to the island from Kill Kare Park, or provide/rent your own boat and go on your own. This is obviously a very popular park, rightly so, I recommend reserving early to get a site here as they are often sold out as soon as reservations open for the season. Also available through Burton Island Park is Woods Island State Park, a remote, boat access only (must provide your own craft, no ferry) private island campground a short distance north of Burton Island. Woods Island is a more primitive camping, pit toilets and no potable water on the island.

So there it is in a nutshell! Please let me know if I can provide any more info on anything. More than glad to help! As you can see I am VERY proud of our State Parks here in VT. I've been camping in them my whole life and NEVER had a bad experience or bad campground/campsite. The weather here in July is pretty moderate, and depending on where you are, might just fit the 80 degree limit perfectly. Being on the water somewhere or deeper in the woods/on a mountain would certainly be up to 5-15 degrees cooler than the "city" areas. Hope my novel on camping in VT helped! Have fun planning your adventures!

Wow. That's a lot to digest, and I'm excited to do so. And the Park-to-Amtrak guide is fantastic! Thanks for your information. I hope to make a trip out of it yet!

neroden said:

VentureForth said:

I can't help but wonder if there is that much thru traffic where one-seat to DC is important (unless, of course, this train is in existence for the pleasure of Vermont politicians to get back and forth to work). If they cut it back to NYP could they double the frequency on the Northern half of the route?

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No. Put it this way: the Vermonter is occupying a slot which would be occupied by a Regional if the Vermonter wasn't running. Vermont doesn't pay for the DC-NY part of the run.

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The Vermonter effectively serves as a Regional between WAS to NHV and as a Springfield train between NHV-SPG. Albeit as a different consist arrangement than a Regional with the cafe/2x1 seating BC car on the front of the consist. I have taken the Vermonter between NYP-WAS and STM-WAS several times because it met my schedule. If one wants the nicer BC seats, take the Vermonter instead of a Regional.
The ridership numbers reported for the Vermonter are only for passengers traveling north of SPG. In previous FYs, AFAIK, Vermont was the only state subsidizing the train. I gather now VT, MA, and CT are all subsidizing a portion of the train; CT for the stops in CT, north of NHV, MA for the stops in MA, and VT for north of MA. When the Vermonter is rerouted to the CT River line, MA share of the subsidy allocation may increase with 3 new stops. But I expect increased ridership in both MA and VT with the new stops and 25 minute trip time savings along with lower operating cost will reduce the total subsidy amount. When/if the Vermonter is extended to Montreal, the states and Amtrak will have to work out the additional subsidy allocation.

VT does want a second daily frequency on the Vermonter route in VT. However, instead of a second NEC to St. Albans train, that may be eventually provided by a Boston to Montreal train via Worcester and Springfield. But that is not likely to happen until after the SPG-WOR section of the Inland route sees some track upgrades and definitely not until the Customs facility in MTR is built and opens.

LOL! Yeah, I can get a little wordy when it comes to camping in VT. :blush: You are more than welcome, glad to help!

One thing I did forget to mention is the rates at the parks. They are very, very reasonable. Tent sites are $20-22 per night, lean tos are $27-29 per night, and the camping cabins run around $50 a night. All per night fees cover two adults and 2 children, extra people are $5 per night. So really a good deal, you can do a 3 night trip, in a lean to, for a family of four, for less than $100 for lodging. Not bad!

VentureForth said:

neroden said:

While I was perusing the Route Guide for the Vermonter, I noticed that it runs from St. Albans to Washington, DC. Is there that much demand from Vermont for a one seat ride to DC? That makes this train sorta like the Palmetto of the North.

Click to expand...

I don't know; the demand to NYC is large and there's no reason not to run it through.

Click to expand...

I can't help but wonder if there is that much thru traffic where one-seat to DC is important (unless, of course, this train is in existence for the pleasure of Vermont politicians to get back and forth to work). If they cut it back to NYP could they double the frequency on the Northern half of the route?

Click to expand...

There is a much more mundane reason why Amtrak will not originate or terminate a loco hauled (non push-pull) train to/from the north on the NEC at Penn Station. There is no easy way to get the train into the station from Sunnyside for origination or to Sunnyside after a termination, without doing a shoving move, which is generally avoided. Of course doing engine shunting in Penn Station has been a no-no for a long time now. That is also the reason why no through Washington to Empire Corridor train exists or will exist until there is good push pull equipment with dual mode available to do so.
One could argue that since the Vermonter carries a cab car anyway, it could be done. However, generally the cab car is at the electric engine end so as to make the engine change exercise in New Haven less time consuming.

Shortpants marvelous response needs to be pinned some where for future reference

WELL DONE sir !!!

Thank you so much. I am humbled by your praise. And it's actually "ma'am", not sir

Yes Mam,,,, still well done,,, you ought to post that on trip advisor,,,,,

Shortpants said:

I might be able to help out with camping options on the Amtrak routes in VT, I think. I have lived in VT for 43 years, an avid camper, and the State Parks in our state are outstanding, if I do say so myself.

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GREAT roundup of the opportunities, makes me want to head back to my home state as a tourist some day!

You can take a Vermonter out of Vermont, but the Green Mountains stay in your heart and soul forever oregon pioneer.

I got thinking last night that I hadn't listed local bus routes for anywhere but the first two parks, here's a link to all the public transit companies/routes in VT:
http://www.vpta.net/

I had only listed "The Bus" above from Rutland County area, but there are many public bus options that may help you out if you decide to venture into our Green Mountains.

Vermont also has a pretty good "Rideshare" program to help commuters carpool/vanpool, the VT State site is here (and also has bus info):
http://www.connectingcommuters.org/

Or take a look on Craigslist Vermont for other rideshare opportunities throughout the state.

There are usually local taxi services in pretty much all of the listed towns too. Just Google to see what's available in the area you are heading to. Most of our "taxis" are minivans (that I have seen), so loading them up with gear or stopping to grab perishable supplies, etc shouldn't be a problem.

And, if you are the type of person that is ok with hitching rides, that is very common in the big hiking areas and along the Long Trail. I constantly see backpacking hitch hikers coming to and from the trails and have even picked up a few myself.

Fair warning... cell service in VT has improved greatly over the last couple years, but we still have many dead spots and limited carriers in the state.