?The Rise and Fall of Penn Station.?

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roomette

roomette

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Producer and director Randall MacLowry discusses his documentary “The Rise and Fall of Penn Station.” Penn Station opened November 27, 1910, and was a grand, beautiful building. But in 1961, the financially strapped Pennsylvania Railroad announced that it had sold the air rights above Penn Station, and the company tore down the train station to build Madison Square Garden. In response to Penn Station’s destruction, New York City established the Landmarks Preservation Commission. Grand Central Terminal was designated a historic landmark in 1967, sparing it from the sad fate of Penn Station. “The Rise and Fall of Penn Station” premieres on PBS February 18 at 9 pm.

Listen to the radio show segment here.
 
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Reminder that PBS is airing the 1 hour program The Rise and Fall of Penn Station: American Experience tonight (Feb 18) at 9 PM on most or some PBS stations. I see that the schedule for the WETA DC PBS station has an American Experience episode on the Grand Coulee dam at 8 PM ET for those interested in history of other big infrastructure projects.

However, the schedule for WMPT, MD PBS, does not have it on at 9 PM, but instead they are showing it at 5 AM Wednesday morning on the HD channel. So for those only get WMPT, set the DVR if you have one.
 
That was an excellent show! I didn't get to watch it in as much detail as I would have liked, but it was good. As a side note, one of the historians they had on the program was Dr. Albert Churella. I had him as my Railroads professor in college just a few years ago!
 
I caught it on PBS just the other day. I missed the 1st 20 minutes or so, as it was on channel 2 and I seldom surf that low. Also, since I'm on the CT border, I get both CT and RI channels for PBS (with sometimes different shows and/or times). The part I saw was very interesting, now I can see the beginning! Thanks Charlie! :)
 
I finally watched this last night. It had been sitting on my DVR all semester.

I enjoyed it, and it was interesting to learn about how they tunneled under the Hudson, but there was one question they either didn't answer, or I missed:

They discussed the movement of the tunnels, the rising and sinking, and how they finally attributed it to the tides. They had also talked about screwing them down. I didn't see the final resolution, though. Did they not do anything at all? Did they screw them into the bedrock? It went from tunnel talk to trains running through just fine, nothing to be scared of after all, etc.
 
SarahZ said:
I finally watched this last night. It had been sitting on my DVR all semester.

I enjoyed it, and it was interesting to learn about how they tunneled under the Hudson, but there was one question they either didn't answer, or I missed:

They discussed the movement of the tunnels, the rising and sinking, and how they finally attributed it to the tides. They had also talked about screwing them down. I didn't see the final resolution, though. Did they not do anything at all? Did they screw them into the bedrock? It went from tunnel talk to trains running through just fine, nothing to be scared of after all, etc.
Click to expand...
You'll definitely want to pick up a copy of "Conquering Gotham", the book by Jill Jonnes (who appears in the program) upon which the program was based. There's several entire chapters devoted to the problems with the oscillations in the North River tubes that were ultimately attributed to the tidal shifts in the river. The jackscrews driven down to bedrock did ultimately do the trick, along with additional concrete reinforcement. The book has far more detail than could be included in the film and should be a must read for any railfan or history buff.
 
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The piles were not installed.

The short story: the measured movement of the tunnels was not that significant. The PRR engineers felt the risk of damaging the tunnels during and after the installation of the screw piles was greater than the risk of damage from the small movement. In 1908, the PRR decided to not install the piles. The decision was not made public due to the fear of bad PR. Some 106 years later, the decision appears to have been a wise one.

The long story is here.
 
PRR 60 said:
The piles were not installed.

The short story: the measured movement of the tunnels was not that significant. The PRR engineers felt the risk of damaging the tunnels during and after the installation of the screw piles was greater than the risk of damage from the small movement. In 1908, the PRR decided to not install the piles. The decision was not made public due to the fear of bad PR. Some 106 years later, the decision appears to have been a wise one.

The long story is here.
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You're right, I couldn't recall the details. Time to reread the book!
 
I used NYP almost everyday. I enjoy looking for hidden remnants of the once mighty Penn Station while I walk the whole thing. I then look at the West End Concourse Extension, the so called Monayhan Station (phase 1) and marvel at the fact that it will probably take just as long to build a few staircases as the entire original Penn Station complex took to build, and in 1900 they used little more than hand shovels (at least for all 6 tunnels), progress!

The money would have been better spend on opening the entire Hilton / Gimbels Corridor connection to the PATH and the Broadway/6th subway lines along with the 6th ave passageway that travels all the way to 42st!.
 
Allypet said:
The money would have been better spend on opening the entire Hilton / Gimbels Corridor connection to the PATH and the Broadway/6th subway lines along with the 6th ave passageway that travels all the way to 42st!.
Click to expand...
Really? Those would provide the additional ingress/egress points to/from the overloaded platforms? All that those do is allow people to walk through a tunnel walkway instead of on a sidewalk and do not solve any pedestrian flow problem at all.
 
jis said:
Allypet said:
The money would have been better spend on opening the entire Hilton / Gimbels Corridor connection to the PATH and the Broadway/6th subway lines along with the 6th ave passageway that travels all the way to 42st!.
Click to expand...
Really? Those would provide the additional ingress/egress points to/from the overloaded platforms? All that those do is allow people to walk through a tunnel walkway instead of on a sidewalk and do not solve any pedestrian flow problem at all.
Click to expand...
It really wont provide additional points of egress from the platforms, the west end concourse exists now. The project just expands concourses and adds extra entryways on the western end of the station, and since the overwhelming majority of passengers travel from the east side, the expanded concourse will be underutilized, the same as the current west end concourse.
 
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Allypet said:
jis said:
Allypet said:
The money would have been better spend on opening the entire Hilton / Gimbels Corridor connection to the PATH and the Broadway/6th subway lines along with the 6th ave passageway that travels all the way to 42st!.
Click to expand...
Really? Those would provide the additional ingress/egress points to/from the overloaded platforms? All that those do is allow people to walk through a tunnel walkway instead of on a sidewalk and do not solve any pedestrian flow problem at all.
Click to expand...
It really wont provide additional points of egress from the platforms, the west end concourse exists now. The project just expands concourses and adds extra entryways on the western end of the station, and since the overwhelming majority of passengers travel from the east side, the expanded concourse will be underutilized, the same as the current west end concourse.
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The west end concourse is being extended south to provide access to it from additional platforms. So you are incorrect in your contention that it won;t provide additional egress points. I think that is darned more important than opening the old corridor under 33rd St. That old corridor is not exactly a barn burner when it comes to pedestrian capacity or convenience, unless someone finds the money to fix it considerably and straighten it out. The sidewalk above is a much better handler of pedestrian capacity IMHO.
 
Alleypet, I recall the old passageway under 33rd street that I believe went thru a slice of Gimbel's basement...I think it was closed when the homeless made it unusable...

I am not familiar with a passage under Sixth Avenue that extended to 42nd Street....could you elaborate a little on that one?
 
railiner said:
Alleypet, I recall the old passageway under 33rd street that I believe went thru a slice of Gimbel's basement...I think it was closed when the homeless made it unusable...

I am not familiar with a passage under Sixth Avenue that extended to 42nd Street....could you elaborate a little on that one?
Click to expand...
http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/04/15/twenty-years-later-subway-passageways-lost-to-time/

This passageway dates from the construction of the IND, and it originally opened, as the Municipal Arts Society recounted, in 1940. A piece from the May 4 New Yorker that year introduced the city to the tunnel as a work in progress:
It’s a passageway running from Thirty-fifth Street to Fortieth, connecting with both the Thirty-fourth and Forty-second Street stations. The idea is that it will relieve congestion at these points by distributing passengers over a greater area. If you add the length of the station platforms to the length of the underpass, you have something impressive – a stretch of more than nine blocks, from Thirty-third Street to north of Forty-second. There will be a catch to using this as a summer promenade, however. There will be turnstiles at the ends of both station platforms, so it will cost ten cents to make the entire distance. The arrangement should nevertheless be a boon to adventurous strollers in the summer of 1941…At the south end, once you’re through the turnstile, you will be able to wander on indefinitely underground: through territory of the BMT, the Hudson & Manhattan terminal, Saks-Thirty-fourth Street, Gimbel’s, the Pennsylvania Station – a whole world in itself.
For years, the passageway served as a short cut away from the crowds on 6th Ave., but as the subway system fell into ruin, so too did these less-than-secure areas underground. Eventually by the 1980s and early 1990s, homeless people outnumbered commuters, and long, dark passageways were hallmarks of the unsafe subways. Junkies and pushers sprung up in area that bred graffiti and saw nary a cop – or station agent – patrolling the grounds.


Here is a video
 
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That was not a premiere. I watched it online a few months ago. Interesting documentary, nonetheless.

What absolutely wasteful destruction of a usable building!
 
Allypet said:
railiner said:
Alleypet, I recall the old passageway under 33rd street that I believe went thru a slice of Gimbel's basement...I think it was closed when the homeless made it unusable...

I am not familiar with a passage under Sixth Avenue that extended to 42nd Street....could you elaborate a little on that one?
Click to expand...
http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/04/15/twenty-years-later-subway-passageways-lost-to-time/

This passageway dates from the construction of the IND, and it originally opened, as the Municipal Arts Society recounted, in 1940. A piece from the May 4 New Yorker that year introduced the city to the tunnel as a work in progress:
It’s a passageway running from Thirty-fifth Street to Fortieth, connecting with both the Thirty-fourth and Forty-second Street stations. The idea is that it will relieve congestion at these points by distributing passengers over a greater area. If you add the length of the station platforms to the length of the underpass, you have something impressive – a stretch of more than nine blocks, from Thirty-third Street to north of Forty-second. There will be a catch to using this as a summer promenade, however. There will be turnstiles at the ends of both station platforms, so it will cost ten cents to make the entire distance. The arrangement should nevertheless be a boon to adventurous strollers in the summer of 1941…At the south end, once you’re through the turnstile, you will be able to wander on indefinitely underground: through territory of the BMT, the Hudson & Manhattan terminal, Saks-Thirty-fourth Street, Gimbel’s, the Pennsylvania Station – a whole world in itself.
For years, the passageway served as a short cut away from the crowds on 6th Ave., but as the subway system fell into ruin, so too did these less-than-secure areas underground. Eventually by the 1980s and early 1990s, homeless people outnumbered commuters, and long, dark passageways were hallmarks of the unsafe subways. Junkies and pushers sprung up in area that bred graffiti and saw nary a cop – or station agent – patrolling the grounds.


Here is a video
Click to expand...
Wow! I have lived here a long time, and thought that I knew the subway system pretty well, but this is all new to me....Thanks so much for providing that info and the link to the story. Fascinating!

Next time I go to one of those stations, I'll have to take the time to look for traces of the closed of passages....

Now if they could only open one linking the Times Square and Bryant Park stations, with a free passage for the short distance under 42nd Street, that would be great.... :)
 
railiner said:
Allypet said:
Alleypet, I recall the old passageway under 33rd street that I believe went thru a slice of Gimbel's basement...I think it was closed when the homeless made it unusable...

I am not familiar with a passage under Sixth Avenue that extended to 42nd Street....could you elaborate a little on that one?
Click to expand...
http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/04/15/twenty-years-later-subway-passageways-lost-to-time/

This passageway dates from the construction of the IND, and it originally opened, as the Municipal Arts Society recounted, in 1940. A piece from the May 4 New Yorker that year introduced the city to the tunnel as a work in progress:
It’s a passageway running from Thirty-fifth Street to Fortieth, connecting with both the Thirty-fourth and Forty-second Street stations. The idea is that it will relieve congestion at these points by distributing passengers over a greater area. If you add the length of the station platforms to the length of the underpass, you have something impressive – a stretch of more than nine blocks, from Thirty-third Street to north of Forty-second. There will be a catch to using this as a summer promenade, however. There will be turnstiles at the ends of both station platforms, so it will cost ten cents to make the entire distance. The arrangement should nevertheless be a boon to adventurous strollers in the summer of 1941…At the south end, once you’re through the turnstile, you will be able to wander on indefinitely underground: through territory of the BMT, the Hudson & Manhattan terminal, Saks-Thirty-fourth Street, Gimbel’s, the Pennsylvania Station – a whole world in itself.
For years, the passageway served as a short cut away from the crowds on 6th Ave., but as the subway system fell into ruin, so too did these less-than-secure areas underground. Eventually by the 1980s and early 1990s, homeless people outnumbered commuters, and long, dark passageways were hallmarks of the unsafe subways. Junkies and pushers sprung up in area that bred graffiti and saw nary a cop – or station agent – patrolling the grounds.


Here is a video
Click to expand...
You are welcomed. One day when I am not too busy at work, I am going to try and get into there and take some pictures.
 
I went thru the Bryant Park station, and found on the south end of the mezzanine level a pair of steel doors that had a sign indicating some maintenance purpose with a phone number to call for access. They were set into a tile wall. To their right, was a large boarded up section covering either the tile wall, or perhaps the passageway...it was also covered with different signs and phone numbers....did not have the time to study them on the way to work......
 
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