Fred Frailey compares the Empire Builder to the Canadian

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I've ridden both train in 2013 (although not the entire route of the Builder) and I would recommend the Builder over the Canadian any day even if the prices were the same. I had better dining car service, and better sleeping car attendant on the Builder. Food is slightly better on Canadian, and yes I love the dome cars but give me a train that actually gets to move instead of sitting on a siding for hours. (CN treats Via terrible).
 
jis said:
The difference is that the Canadian gets stuck every day that it operates. It is built into its schedule!
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Well, fortunately, there aren't very many days that it operates, so it doesn't have to get stuck too often.
 
And even with all the ridiculous amount of padding built in it is still delayed for very long amounts of time on a regular basis.

But even without the delays, my experience comparing Amtrak to via in 2013 alone, I'd still have a tough decision with the price. VIA is a cool experience and I'm glad I went, but people who rave about VIA have either not ridden Amtrak in a while (because things have improved) or are just so stuck in the past that they rave about VIA for the vintage equipment. The Budd cars are cool to see... But they are no more comfortable or luxurious than Amtrak with the exception of the dining cars which are more elegant than most Amtrak dining cars.
 
I have ridden both and like the Canadian better - mainly because of the Park car (and Canadian beer). I had an express deal, so my fare was much less than the Empire Builder would have been.

When I was on the Canadian, we stood still for almost 10 hours due to a freight derailment ahead of us. We ended up about 6 - 7 hours late, which resulted in a credit toward a future trip (which I used last September on my Ocean 50% off trip).
 
If traveling for actual "travel's sake" I'll happily take the Empire Builder over the Canadian every time. You get in to your end-point destination more than a day sooner, have a train each day of the week to choose from, don't have to cross the border, etc. Never-mind the connection variety in both the Pacific Northwest as well as Chicago for other trains and transportation for those traveling between the major endpoints. The Canadian really is a "cruise on rails" these days. Sure, it officially is transportation on paper in order to justify the Canadian government support, but even though Alberta has been experiencing an "oil boom" starting nearly a half-decade before our own in the tar sands, the Canadian has never even slightly shown an increase in traffic from oil workers where as the Empire Builder has (rather famously) been the benefactor of unforeseen massive demand from the boom.

So, yes. Cruise train vs. REAL train. Empire Builder has trumped the venerable Canadian.
 
TVRM610 said:
And even with all the ridiculous amount of padding built in it is still delayed for very long amounts of time on a regular basis.
But even without the delays, my experience comparing Amtrak to via in 2013 alone, I'd still have a tough decision with the price. VIA is a cool experience and I'm glad I went, but people who rave about VIA have either not ridden Amtrak in a while (because things have improved) or are just so stuck in the past that they rave about VIA for the vintage equipment. The Budd cars are cool to see... But they are no more comfortable or luxurious than Amtrak with the exception of the dining cars which are more elegant than most Amtrak dining cars.
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They might as well cut all the padding and then give a notice that trains will often be severly delayed. The sections are quite overpriced cmpared to Amtrak Roomettes, even though the upper berth is not pleasant on a double-decker Superliner.

Blackwolf said:
If traveling for actual "travel's sake" I'll happily take the Empire Builder over the Canadian every time. You get in to your end-point destination more than a day sooner, have a train each day of the week to choose from, don't have to cross the border, etc. Never-mind the connection variety in both the Pacific Northwest as well as Chicago for other trains and transportation for those traveling between the major endpoints. The Canadian really is a "cruise on rails" these days. Sure, it officially is transportation on paper in order to justify the Canadian government support, but even though Alberta has been experiencing an "oil boom" starting nearly a half-decade before our own in the tar sands, the Canadian has never even slightly shown an increase in traffic from oil workers where as the Empire Builder has (rather famously) been the benefactor of unforeseen massive demand from the boom.
So, yes. Cruise train vs. REAL train. Empire Builder has trumped the venerable Canadian.
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A very good comparison.
 
I find it amusing that all the defenders here of the Empire Builder's superiority resort to criticizing the Canadian's padding, as if the Empire Builder--and every other Amtrak LD train--doesn't also have ridiculous amounts of padding yet routinely run late (see Empire Builder every winter).

The three times that we have ridden the Canadian (as opposed to the two times we have ridden the Empire Builder), the train was on time or early into Toronto.

But that's not the point for riding it. As one person has pointed out here, it is a "cruise on rails" or more prosaically put, a train for tourists as opposed for people getting from point A to point B. That's why the three times we have ridden, the sleepers were occupied to a far greater extent than the coaches, which always seemed to be three-fourths empty. (And who in their right mind would sit up in coach from Vancouver to Toronto, a four-night ordeal in a chair!)

As a "cruise," you enjoy meals far superior to those anywhere on Amtrak. Everything is fresh and cooked to order on board. (The real china plates and silverware are washed by hand between meal sittings; there is no dishwasher.) The breakfast and dinner menus in particular put Amtrak food and pre/post cooking methods to shame.

The sleeper amenities are also far superior to those in Amtrak sleepers. The beds, for one, are far more comfortable. There are real comforters and substantial pillows. The shower is cleaner and easier to use. We had a room for two with a modern bathroom rebuilt into the Budd car.

And of course there are the domes--the Park Observation Car at the end of the train, a nice reminder of what used to be on American trains such as the Super Chief. And the Panorama Dome cars between Toronto and Edmonton, which are more than the equal of the Sightseer Lounge, with more comfortable seating and more seats for passengers.

The VIA cars are cleaner and the onboard personnel, with barely an exception, truly enjoy their jobs and make the comfort of passengers the top priority, something sorely lacking in consistency with Amtrak.

So yes, the Empire Builder is less expensive (unless you get one of the many Via Express Deals), it takes less time (if being in a hurry is not an oxymoron for Amtrak LD trains), and for Americans, you get to earn AGR points (unless you are on an AGR redemption), and you don't have to cross the border (not such a big deal even in these security-conscious times and I wonder if people on this forum who constantly moan about border procedures either have not gone out of the US or make their grimace and dislike so visible at inspection stations that they naturally present themselves as candidates for secondary screening).

But to pretend that the Empire Builder is the equal of the Canadian---hogwash.
 
guest said:
I find it amusing that all the defenders here of the Empire Builder's superiority resort to criticizing the Canadian's padding, as if the Empire Builder--and every other Amtrak LD train--doesn't also have ridiculous amounts of padding yet routinely run late (see Empire Builder every winter).

The three times that we have ridden the Canadian (as opposed to the two times we have ridden the Empire Builder), the train was on time or early into Toronto.

But that's not the point for riding it. As one person has pointed out here, it is a "cruise on rails" or more prosaically put, a train for tourists as opposed for people getting from point A to point B. That's why the three times we have ridden, the sleepers were occupied to a far greater extent than the coaches, which always seemed to be three-fourthsempty. (And who in their right mind would sit up in coach from Vancouver to Toronto, a four-night ordeal in a chair!)
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I find it amusing that you compare the Empire Builder and the Canadians Padding.. I mean really. We are not talking about "traditional" padding when we are talking about the Canadian. For what it's worth.. when I rode the Canadian the train was on time into Vancouver, but that doesn't mean I enjoyed sitting in sidings for hours.

guest said:
As a "cruise," you enjoy meals far superior to those anywhere on Amtrak. Everything is fresh and cooked to order on board. (The real china plates and silverware are washed by hand between meal sittings; there is no dishwasher.) The breakfast and dinner menus in particular put Amtrak food and pre/post cooking methods to shame.
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I agree that the food is better on Via. But I would not go as far as saying "far superior" Also.. the Empire Builder also has real china plates, silverware, and glassware as well.

guest said:
The sleeper amenities are also far superior to those in Amtrak sleepers. The beds, for one, are far more comfortable. There are real comforters and substantial pillows. The shower is cleaner and easier to use. We had a room for two with a modern bathroom rebuilt into the Budd car.
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You haven't ridden the Empire Builder recently. When I rode it the pillows were great (Empire Builder and Coast Starlight have "upgraded" pillows) and I was given an extra blanket without being asked. I will agree that the mattress itself is nice to have on VIA.. but I find the VIA cars much more sterile than the refurbished Amtrak Sleepers. Also.. compare a refurbished superliner bathroom to the bathroom on VIA. The winner by far goes to Amtrak imho.

guest said:
And of course there are the domes--the Park Observation Car at the end of the train, a nice reminder of what used to be on American trains such as the Super Chief. And the Panorama Dome cars between Toronto and Edmonton, which are more than the equal of the Sightseer Lounge, with more comfortable seating and more seats for passengers.
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The dome cars are awesome... It's the main reason I would ride the Canadian again.

guest said:
The VIA cars are cleaner and the onboard personnel, with barely an exception, truly enjoy their jobs and make the comfort of passengers the top priority, something sorely lacking in consistency with Amtrak.
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Cleaner? Maybe to an extent. As for the staff... I didn't see many VIA employees that "truly" enjoyed their job. Most just knew they were in a service position and knew they were expected to act a certain way. Just in 2013, I had better service both in the dining car, and in the sleeping car on the Empire Builder.

guest said:
So yes, the Empire Builder is less expensive (unless you get one of the many Via Express Deals), it takes less time (if being in a hurry is not an oxymoron for Amtrak LD trains), and for Americans, you get to earn AGR points (unless you are on an AGR redemption), and you don't have to cross the border (not such a big deal even in these security-conscious times and I wonder if people on this forum who constantly moan about border procedures either have not gone out of the US or make their grimace and dislike so visible at inspection stations that they naturally present themselves as candidates for secondary screening).
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I was questioned way beyond what I was expecting at the border (based on previous border crossing 6 years ago), I approached as calm and polite as could be. I was not sent to any secondary screening, in fact they even bypassed me for the luggage screening but it's still quite the process to go through.

guest said:
But to pretend that the Empire Builder is the equal of the Canadian---hogwash.
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Again, I have ridden both in 2013, my experience on the Empire Builder was superior to that of the Canadian.
 
TVRM610 said:
. The Budd cars are cool to see... But they are no more comfortable or luxurious than Amtrak with the exception of the dining cars which are more elegant than most Amtrak dining cars.
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I disagree completely, the budd cars are far more comfortable and luxurious than anything Amtrak offers (the Pacific Parlour car aside), the beds are far more comfortable, the park car trumps any lounge car space Amtrak offers, even the Skyline Dome is pretty good. Amtrak has greatly improved its superliners recently but they still pale in comparison to the Budd equipment. The only exception I would think is the shower, the refurbished superliner showers are quite nice.
 
The Canadian gets my vote too, I found the staff, who after all are the heart and soul of the operation, to be much more upbeat. Food was 200% better, and I got a good deal on a single sleeper in the express deals. I like the Builder, but based on my actual experiences, the Canadian wins easily.

Ed :cool:
 
The Canadian at present probably gets my vote by a very very small margin. The Canadian has been on a steady downhill trend as far as quality of service and food is concerned over the last 5 or so years when I have ridden it several times. I expect it to beat the Empire Builder in its slide towards medicrity soon, if not already.

I must admit I am much less enamoured of the Budd rebuilds, which are basically falling apart, and need another rebuild soon. Some of them are getting it, but not all.
 
Disclosure: I've not ridden the Canadian, so I can't compare it to the EB, but I have traveled on VIA.

I doubt that the Harper administration is doing much for morale on VIA. OTOH, Amtrak seems to be focusing on improving customer service, and if the employees see the connection between doing a good job and job security, it would not surprise me that Amtrak could be closing (or even closed) the gap between the two experiences.

Jim Hudson, we need your input! :)
 
The Davy Crockett said:
Disclosure: I've not ridden the Canadian, so I can't compare it to the EB, but I have traveled on VIA.
I doubt that the Harper administration is doing much for morale on VIA. OTOH, Amtrak seems to be focusing on improving customer service, and if the employees see the connection between doing a good job and job security, it would not surprise me that Amtrak could be closing (or even closed) the gap between the two experiences.

Jim Hudson, we need your input! :)
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:hi: jimhudson here! Funny you should mention me Scott as Im frading this just home from riding the Canadian from Vancouver to Toronto on an Express Deal and had several Meals and Adult Beverages with Fred in the Park Lounge and Dome Cars and a Large group of Canadian and American Railroaders called the Moonlighters who ride this train Twice a year!

I'll, be doing a Trip Report when I get re-oriented to not being on a Train, but Basically I'm on the side of The Canadian Lovers

for All of the Reasons Mentioned so far and More! The Canadian by a large Margarin and I Like the Builder!!!! ;)
 
The Davy Crockett said:
I doubt that the Harper administration is doing much for morale on VIA. OTOH, Amtrak seems to be focusing on improving customer service, and if the employees see the connection between doing a good job and job security, it would not surprise me that Amtrak could be closing (or even closed) the gap between the two experiences.
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In my opinion this is exactly the case.

I've only ridden the Canadian once, and passengers who have ridden it prior told me that fresh regional food used to be loaded onto the train at different stops, even one of the waitresses commented on the fact they have plastic flowers in the diner now. I didn't run into any unprofessional employees on VIA (and I have this year on Amtrak) - but very few would be described as cheerful or in high spirits.

What I'm seeing on Amtrak... is a huge boost in Employee morale and Customer Service.

I would like to clarify again that I'm not hating on VIA... I enjoyed my experience and truly hope I get another opportunity. But if I was to recommend one LD train to anyone it wold most likely be the Coast Starlight 1st, and Empire Builder 2nd, Both before the Canadian. (assuming sleepers)
 
jimhudson said:
I'll, be doing a Trip Report when I get re-oriented to not being on a Train, but Basically I'm on the side of The Canadian Lovers

for All of the Reasons Mentioned so far and More! The Canadian by a large Margarin and I Like the Builder!!!! ;)
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Welcome back Jim! :excl: Sounds like you had quite the time! :cool:

I'm looking forward to the trip report. (And I usually don't read trip reports :eek: ) .... :p
 
From the article:

Yet the passengers aboard the Empire Builder probably never noticed the railroad frenzy outside the windows. What is there to notice when you never stop for traffic and seldom even slow down? The one time we made way for a freight was outside the Cascade Tunnel. Otherwise, some awfully gifted BNSF dispatchers in Fort Worth threaded us through the tangle as if the office car of Matt Rose carried our train’s markers.
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Nothing seems to have changed from a July 2009 CHI to SEA trip to a Jan 2013 CHI-PDX trip. Both times I was amazed at the number of freights we whizzed by without even slowing down. This last trip I saw a lot of tank cars on industrial sidings, but they weren't slowing us down a bit.
 
The Davy Crockett said:
Disclosure: I've not ridden the Canadian, so I can't compare it to the EB, but I have traveled on VIA.
I doubt that the Harper administration is doing much for morale on VIA. OTOH, Amtrak seems to be focusing on improving customer service, and if the employees see the connection between doing a good job and job security, it would not surprise me that Amtrak could be closing (or even closed) the gap between the two experiences.

Jim Hudson, we need your input! :)
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That has got to be a big problem getting worse. VIA recently got a new round of cuts and has not restored any cancelled trains while Amtrak is increasing and improving service.

PaulM said:
From the article:
Yet the passengers aboard the Empire Builder probably never noticed the railroad frenzy outside the windows. What is there to notice when you never stop for traffic and seldom even slow down? The one time we made way for a freight was outside the Cascade Tunnel. Otherwise, some awfully gifted BNSF dispatchers in Fort Worth threaded us through the tangle as if the office car of Matt Rose carried our train’s markers.
Click to expand...
Nothing seems to have changed from a July 2009 CHI to SEA trip to a Jan 2013 CHI-PDX trip. Both times I was amazed at the number of freights we whizzed by without even slowing down. This last trip I saw a lot of tank cars on industrial sidings, but they weren't slowing us down a bit.
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Why are BNSF dispatchers in Fort Worth?
 
Having enjoyed the EB countless times in both directions as well as the CS three times and find both these trains the absolute "best" Amtrak has to offer, IMO they do not compare at all to my journey aboard the Canadian 1.5 yrs. ago. I do agree that the Express Deal I got at 75% off made it a bargain compared to full fare or the fare aboard the EB considering what I receive aboard the Canadian. I also think much like an earlier post that it is more a a rail cruise than say a point to point journey.

I do remember that all employees aboard the Canadian were enthusiastic, professional and did all they could to make the rail journey as enjoyable and comfortable as possible. I know my room was swept clean each day, the trash emptied and my private bathroom cleaned each day as well. The entire sleeping car was spotless the entire journey. I have not encountered that service or cleanliness aboard any Amtrak train.

As for the bedding - there is no comparison at all with the Canadian's bedding, duvet, pillows, etc.

Dining car experience - well I have had some great meals and good meals aboard all Amtrak trains and have found very few to complain about, but the Canadian's dining experience, table layout, meal preparation, meal offerings, staff were not in the same league as Amtrak. I have run into too many Amtrak Dining Car Matrons who think that the dining car is their personal fiefdom to do and speak as well as they please with absolute no consideration for the passenger/guest. My 10 meals aboard the Canadian were a dining experience, my 5 meals aboard the EB are a meal.

I remember on my journey from Vancouver - Toronto there was always some activity planned in the Activity Car. I was very surprised on how much there was to do to keep your time occupied.

As for the padding, I did enjoy my stroll around Jasper and Winnipeg with time to spare. However, the Canadian was roughly 40 minutes late arriving into Toronto.

In saying all of the above I do realize that the EB sleeping cars and definitely coach have passengers boarding and detraining continually where on the Canadian, especially the sleeping cars it was a minute turnover in passengers, mainly at the major stops/cities. Most sleeping car passengers where going Vancouver-Toronto or vice versa.

In my trip report on the Canadian I do believe I did very little comparison as I found the two cannot be comparably compared on an even basis and mainly stuck to the trip itself. Would I pay for a bedroom for two on the Canadian at full fare- never, but then I would not pay the high bucket fare for a roomette or bedroom on the EB.

The biggest difference and biggest advantage of the EB and Amtrak is that the room accomodation fare covers all passengers in the reserved room where the Canadian is per person a room with a surcharge for in my example a bedroom for two with only single occupancy.
 
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