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Cho Cho Charlie

Cho Cho Charlie

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Allentown's Morning Call, 2/5/2013, page 9 (can't find an online version of this, yet, on their site).

Some highlights:

"State must decide by the fall whether it's worth an estimated $5.7 million to subsidize service."

"PennDOT spokeswoman... noted that it is much faster to drive between the two cities (Harrisburg - Pittsburgh) than to take the 5 1/2 hour train trip."

"While Amtrak has been on a roll with record ridership in nine of the last 10 years, traffic in and out of Pittsburgh has been in decline."

"System wide, Amtrak ridership rose 3.5 percent last year, while Pittsburgh ridership was down 3.3 percent."

"An Amtrak spokesman said that talks with the state will continue, and that the railroad does not want to end the service."
 
7 Communities between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh will lose train service. Something that doesn't seem to be considered is that the folks in these 7 communites may not care about Harrisburg or Pittsburgh at all, but this is the most economical way into Philadelphia or NYC. Interestingly, the stations BETWEEN Harrisburg and Pittsburgh enjoyed an aggregate of 2.8% INCREASE in service.

2011 2012 Change

Lewistown 8199 8315 1.4%

Huntingdon 5972 5837 -2.3%

Tyrone 2913 3108 6.3%

Altoona 25738 26978 4.6%

Johnstown 23557 23964 1.7%

Latrobe 4366 4669 6.5%

Greensburg 13087 13395 2.3%

TOTAL: 83832 86266 2.8%
 
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My observation is that a lot of people change between the Capital and the Pennsylvanian in Pittsburgh, despite the long wait and late hour.

If the Pennsylvanian stopped running, the Capitol would also lose revenue.

I hope Amtrak takes that into account before killing this train.
 
Is it likely that the freight carriers may be lobbying to have the Harrisburg - Pittsburgh passenger

service defunded to enable more capacity for their use?
 
My understanding is that if a sleeper gets stuck on a train, it "snaps into" the national system, and that therefore the Cap-Penny sleeper would likely protect the Pennsylvanian if it could be implemented in time.
 
From what I've found, and it could be wrong, PDOT budget for public transportation in 2011-2012 was $940 million. The $5.7 million needed to subsidize the Pennsylvanian amounts to .6% of that budget. That would be less than a small length of highway rebuild. That governor must be friends with our numbskull Kasich.
 
All aboard: Pennsylvania train service must be maintainedPittsburgh Post-Gazette

....

The subsidy is currently paid by Amtrak, which under a federal law has been directed to find a way to share its costs with states. As the Post-Gazette's Jon Schmitz reported, the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation has made no decision yet whether to pick up this new burden, but comments by officials indicate the line is in trouble. That's a shame on several levels.

Not everybody has the resources to fly or drive. Actually, Harrisburg can no longer be reached by a commercial non-stop flight from Pittsburgh. And if the train stops, smaller communities such as Greensburg, Latrobe, Johnstown, Altoona, Tyrone, Huntingdon and Lewistown would be hurt the most. For those residents, it would be drive themselves or remain isolated from the seat of state government -- and too bad for non-drivers.

There is a build-it-and-they-will-come aspect to this debate. The trip to Harrisburg by train is long, five and a half hours, and not surprisingly ridership has been falling. But the Harrisburg to Philadelphia leg is quick, efficient and popular with 14 daily trips -- the product of a $150 million investment in electrifying the track. Western Pennsylvania deserves the same consideration.

PennDOT spends $9 million to subsidize the Harrisburg-Philadelphia link and says it would have to spend $19.2 million to support both segments of the service. In the grand scheme of things, that is small potatoes.

Pittsburgh can't be left a one-train town, the equivalent of a one-horse town. Passenger rail service is environmentally beneficial and needs to be saved and improved.
Click to expand...
 
Anderson said:
My understanding is that if a sleeper gets stuck on a train, it "snaps into" the national system, and that therefore the Cap-Penny sleeper would likely protect the Pennsylvanian if it could be implemented in time.
Click to expand...
All that they need is to transfer two Coaches and a Lounge to keep it going. The problem is that NS has been dragging its feet on the west end crossover and Amtrak as usual has been sitting on its duff doing nothing about it. I don;t expect Amtrak to try to keep any service running unless someone else holds a gun to their head.
 
Probably another case of the highway lobbies and NS putting pressure on the legislature to "clear the tracks" of Amtrak trains. With all the traffic that NS has between Philly and Pittsburgh (and shop traffic in and out of Altoona), I am sure they would like to see Amtrak gone. If people in Pittsburgh, Johnstown and Altoona want to save the Pennsylvanian, they had better lobby long and hard with their state legislator in Harrisburg. Those backing car traffic on the Pa Turnpike will have their people in the state capitol. Again, we flyover territories will lose another train if they do not.
 
cirdan said:
My observation is that a lot of people change between the Capital and the Pennsylvanian in Pittsburgh, despite the long wait and late hour.
Click to expand...
The Morning Call mentions, "Some 142,800 people boarded or disembarked here (Pittsburgh) from Pennsylvanian or Capital Limited trains in the year ended Oct 1, 2008, that number fell to about 129,400 in the year ended last Oct 1."

If true, it seems that indeed less and less people are really interested in making use of the Amtrak service.
 
Cho Cho Charlie said:
cirdan said:
My observation is that a lot of people change between the Capital and the Pennsylvanian in Pittsburgh, despite the long wait and late hour.
Click to expand...
The Morning Call mentions, "Some 142,800 people boarded or disembarked here (Pittsburgh) from Pennsylvanian or Capital Limited trains in the year ended Oct 1, 2008, that number fell to about 129,400 in the year ended last Oct 1."

If true, it seems that indeed less and less people are really interested in making use of the Amtrak service.
Click to expand...
Pittsburgh population is dropping. I wouldn't read anything more into it than that.
 
rile42 said:
The $5.7 million needed to subsidize the Pennsylvanian amounts to .6% of that budget. That would be less than a small length of highway rebuild. That governor must be friends with our numbskull Kasich.
Click to expand...
That comes out to, though, roughly $45 per passenger who uses Pittsburgh as their Amtrak station.

VentureForth said:
7 Communities between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh will lose train service. Something that doesn't seem to be considered is that the folks in these 7 communites may not care about Harrisburg or Pittsburgh at all, but this is the most economical way into Philadelphia or NYC. Interestingly, the stations BETWEEN Harrisburg and Pittsburgh enjoyed an aggregate of 2.8% INCREASE in service.
2011 2012 Change

Lewistown 8199 8315 1.4%

Huntingdon 5972 5837 -2.3%

Tyrone 2913 3108 6.3%

Altoona 25738 26978 4.6%

Johnstown 23557 23964 1.7%

Latrobe 4366 4669 6.5%

Greensburg 13087 13395 2.3%

TOTAL: 83832 86266 2.8%
Click to expand...
Or roughly $66 per passenger or these towns.

OK, why not simply raise the fare by $45 (to/from Pittsburgh) or $66 (to/from any of these towns) ???
 
Nathanael said:
Cho Cho Charlie said:
cirdan said:
My observation is that a lot of people change between the Capital and the Pennsylvanian in Pittsburgh, despite the long wait and late hour.
Click to expand...
The Morning Call mentions, "Some 142,800 people boarded or disembarked here (Pittsburgh) from Pennsylvanian or Capital Limited trains in the year ended Oct 1, 2008, that number fell to about 129,400 in the year ended last Oct 1."

If true, it seems that indeed less and less people are really interested in making use of the Amtrak service.
Click to expand...
Pittsburgh population is dropping. I wouldn't read anything more into it than that.
Click to expand...
If the population is dropping, then doesn't that support dropping the route?

I mean, given they are looking for ways to cut the budget, cutting something that affects fewer and fewer people, would seem like a great candidate.
 
Cho Cho Charlie said:
Nathanael said:
Cho Cho Charlie said:
cirdan said:
My observation is that a lot of people change between the Capital and the Pennsylvanian in Pittsburgh, despite the long wait and late hour.
Click to expand...
The Morning Call mentions, "Some 142,800 people boarded or disembarked here (Pittsburgh) from Pennsylvanian or Capital Limited trains in the year ended Oct 1, 2008, that number fell to about 129,400 in the year ended last Oct 1."

If true, it seems that indeed less and less people are really interested in making use of the Amtrak service.
Click to expand...
Pittsburgh population is dropping. I wouldn't read anything more into it than that.
Click to expand...
If the population is dropping, then doesn't that support dropping the route?

I mean, given they are looking for ways to cut the budget, cutting something that affects fewer and fewer people, would seem like a great candidate.
Click to expand...
I'd argue that the Pennsylvanian should be rolled in with the Capitol Limited a la the Broadway Limited during the early 80s. There seems to be a definite case for a second "direct" NYP-CHI train (i.e. not so roundabout as the Cardinal is) considering the pricing on the LSL...but the Pittsburgh market isn't what it once was. It can probably stand up in conjunction with the other markets (especially if the messy transfer is eliminated), but it may not merit a stand-alone train in current conditions. Moreover, adding through cars would probably bulk up some additional business between stops in PA and stops further west.
 
I think that Jis nailed it, as usual! NS and Amtrak Fiddle while Rome Burns and the Pols in Harrisburg and Washington won't be handing out Checks for Trains in this Political Enviroment! :help:

If you haven't yet caught the Altoona Horseshoe Curve, ASAP would be a Good time to Ride before it's "Gone with the Wind" and Only Freights are Rolling through! ;)
 
It seems like adding Sleeping Cars which would likely also mean adding.a dining car would make the.cost of the operation more expensive. I don't see that happening in 2013. PA. needs to fund a.subsidy for double daily service to Pittsburgh similar to what IL does. Thrre certainly enough population for that.
 
Cho Cho Charlie said:
rile42 said:
The $5.7 million needed to subsidize the Pennsylvanian amounts to .6% of that budget. That would be less than a small length of highway rebuild. That governor must be friends with our numbskull Kasich.
Click to expand...
That comes out to, though, roughly $45 per passenger who uses Pittsburgh as their Amtrak station.

VentureForth said:
7 Communities between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh will lose train service. Something that doesn't seem to be considered is that the folks in these 7 communites may not care about Harrisburg or Pittsburgh at all, but this is the most economical way into Philadelphia or NYC. Interestingly, the stations BETWEEN Harrisburg and Pittsburgh enjoyed an aggregate of 2.8% INCREASE in service.

2011 2012 Change

Lewistown 8199 8315 1.4%

Huntingdon 5972 5837 -2.3%

Tyrone 2913 3108 6.3%

Altoona 25738 26978 4.6%

Johnstown 23557 23964 1.7%

Latrobe 4366 4669 6.5%

Greensburg 13087 13395 2.3%

TOTAL: 83832 86266 2.8%
Click to expand...
Or roughly $66 per passenger or these towns.

OK, why not simply raise the fare by $45 (to/from Pittsburgh) or $66 (to/from any of these towns) ???
Click to expand...
Oh, gee, why didn't anyone else in the world ever think of that? It's just as simple as raising the fare to cover costs, and suddenly the service will break even. Because everybody who buys a ticket today will totally continue riding when the fare doubles or triples.

In fact, if Amtrak uses that same logic for the rest of the system, they might as well double or triple all the fares, because after all, ridership is a static thing totally unaffected by the price. Demand is a fixed quantity. Then Amtrak would no longer need a subsidy at all. (This is where the eyeroll graphic would be if I used the emoticons, but I don't because I really don't care for them.)
 
I don't think a diner would be needed...you could do what they do on the Boston section of the LSL, and/or beef up the cafe a bit. If the diner-club plan works out, you could run "just" a diner-club PGH-NYP and then do cafe-only service at PGH (and drop off any excess OBS at PGH such as they do at the present). In theory, the whole car in question could be cut off, but that might raise ADA issues with folks going upstairs.
 
jphjaxfl said:
It seems like adding Sleeping Cars which would likely also mean adding.a dining car would make the.cost of the operation more expensive. I don't see that happening in 2013. PA. needs to fund a.subsidy for double daily service to Pittsburgh similar to what IL does. Thrre certainly enough population for that.
Click to expand...
If you read the PRIIA report on the Capitol Limited/Pennsylvanian through cars, you'd note that adding a dining car is exactly what they don't plan to do.
 
Trogdor said:
Oh, gee, why didn't anyone else in the world ever think of that? It's just as simple as raising the fare to cover costs, and suddenly the service will break even. Because everybody who buys a ticket today will totally continue riding when the fare doubles or triples.
Click to expand...
Its better that I, as a PA taxpayer, be forced to chip in $45/$66 for each of their tickets?

Unlike with the Feds, PA has to have a balanced budget. So, every penny spent, has to come from the taxpayers. Is there $45/$66 of "value" to the PA taxpayer for each passenger on the Pennsylvanian traveling west of Harrisburg? The answer to that, is the answer to if PennDOT should pick up the cost.
 
Cho Cho Charlie said:
Trogdor said:
Oh, gee, why didn't anyone else in the world ever think of that? It's just as simple as raising the fare to cover costs, and suddenly the service will break even. Because everybody who buys a ticket today will totally continue riding when the fare doubles or triples.
Click to expand...
Its better that I, as a PA taxpayer, be forced to chip in $45/$66 for each of their tickets?

Unlike with the Feds, PA has to have a balanced budget. So, every penny spent, has to come from the taxpayers. Is there $45/$66 of "value" to the PA taxpayer for each passenger on the Pennsylvanian traveling west of Harrisburg? The answer to that, is the answer to if PennDOT should pick up the cost.
Click to expand...
Well, in that case, 95 percent of all passenger trains should be dropped. That will speed up your support of the RAils to Trails campaign.
 
Someone was suggesting a Broadway.LTD service similar to the 1980s which when I rode it had a dining car. If I am going to pay Sleeping Car fares for a.New York-Chicago ticket, I am going to expect meal service, not a snack bar.
 
Cho Cho Charlie said:
Trogdor said:
Oh, gee, why didn't anyone else in the world ever think of that? It's just as simple as raising the fare to cover costs, and suddenly the service will break even. Because everybody who buys a ticket today will totally continue riding when the fare doubles or triples.
Click to expand...
Its better that I, as a PA taxpayer, be forced to chip in $45/$66 for each of their tickets?

Unlike with the Feds, PA has to have a balanced budget. So, every penny spent, has to come from the taxpayers. Is there $45/$66 of "value" to the PA taxpayer for each passenger on the Pennsylvanian traveling west of Harrisburg? The answer to that, is the answer to if PennDOT should pick up the cost.
Click to expand...
Have you found out how much of your "PA taxpayer" money goes towards subsidizing highways and airports? Everyone who uses the road should pay for it and everyone who used the airports should pay all of its expenses instead of burdening you, the poor PA taxpayer, right? Also look, your valuable tax money is being wasted on burning streetlights on somebody else's roads in some cities, definitely they should pay for it themselves and not burden you as the taxpayer. Same thing for that library in the town hundred miles away that is purchasing books on your taxpayer money, surely that needs to stop....I can go on...

Why is it so difficult for some people to digest the fact the rail service is just like roads, airports, waste disposal, water supply, police protection and so on, the things that the government needs to provide using our tax money, we cannot leave these things to everyone to do it for themselves. If you don't like your tax money going to provide rail service, might as well protest your tax money being used on all the other things that it is used on.
 
And wouldn't the $45/66 be divided amongst the thousands of PA residents and not paid by each resident?
 
Cho Cho Charlie said:
Its better that I, as a PA taxpayer, be forced to chip in $45/$66 for each of their tickets?
Unlike with the Feds, PA has to have a balanced budget. So, every penny spent, has to come from the taxpayers. Is there $45/$66 of "value" to the PA taxpayer for each passenger on the Pennsylvanian traveling west of Harrisburg? The answer to that, is the answer to if PennDOT should pick up the cost.
Click to expand...
Where does $45 or $66 dollars per passenger come from? According to the September 2012 monthly report, the Pennsylvanian had 212,006 passengers in FY12. The total loss before OPEBs ($0.3 million) and Capital Charge (n/a) was $5.6 million. If Penn DOT were to provide $5.6 million as a placeholder amount, that works out to $26.44 per passenger. I have not followed Pennsylvanian ticket prices, but Amtrak appears to have increased the average price or more riders are paying higher bucket prices due to increased ridership. Despite Hurricane Sandy, ridership on the train was up +4.0% and ticket revenue up +12.3% for the first 2 months of the fiscal year (Nov 2012 monthly report).

If the subsidy was $20 per passenger would that be ok? That is a small subsidy compared to the non-toll roads in PA.

As for the budget concerns, Gov. Corbett is proposing to lift the obsolete $1.25 per gallon wholesale tax base limit which would bring in a projected $1.9 billion in badly needed annual revenue for state transportation funding. If the state legislature passes a bill to do that, $5 million or so for keeping the Pennsylvanian running is a tiny portion of $1.9 billion. Maybe there could be some small funding for upgrades to the Harrisburg to Pittsburgh corridor to improve trip times along with funds for eastern Kesytone projects.
 
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