Southwest Chief Re-Route?

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NETrainfan

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What is the latest update on the (possible) Southwest Chief re-route?

Is there a link to this? Thanks.
 
How important is it for Amtrak to make this change?

Are there many people wanting to keep the present route?
 
I think Amtrak's preference is to stay put. But financially, it will be nearly impossible. Amtrak will capitulate and join the extremely busy transcon if no one else ponies up money to maintain Class I standards.
 
Personally, I'd bank on a reroute myself, unless funds are provided at a national level. Kansas state government is in the midst of a major conservative rewrite, and funding for all programs are being cut in order to pay for reductions in income taxes. The current governor is a protege of the Koch brothers, and believes that state government should be significantly smaller than it is today. Not that he is prepared to cut airline subsidy's for several airports in the state, but funding for ground transportation will suffer along with other state welfare and school spending. Really a shame, I think part of the fun is seeing the small towns along the northern route, but economically it just isn't going to work out. BNSF has pretty much dropped the marker that they'd be happy with a 40mph branch line, maybe even spun off to a short line operator now that the transcon is double tracked. At least from the outside, it appears they are being very reasonable with Amtrak to get them to move to the new route.
 
I think Amtrak's preference is to stay put. But financially, it will be nearly impossible. Amtrak will capitulate and join the extremely busy transcon if no one else ponies up money to maintain Class I standards.
What we are actually talking here in track class is that defined by the FRA. Class 3 = 60P/40F, Class 4 = 80P/60F, Class 5 = 90P/80F.

By the way, these numbers also explain why BNSF is content to continue allowing 90 mph passenger service west of Albuquerque. If they want to run 70 mph freight, the track must be maintained to Class 5, so there is nothing extra in the way of track maintenance to allow the passenger trains 90 mph. Before someone gets all exicted about saying that can be done in many other places, let's not forget that there are significant signal system costs to go above 79 mph. The facilities are already in place and have been for many years on the tracks where the Southwest Chief is cu.rently allowed 90 mph, but not on many (all?) of the other lines allowing 70 mph freightsw
 
Where the chief is allowed 90 MPH still has to have a working ATS system in place. They are only a few seqments where it still in effect. BNSF freights get no good out of it and it also dates from the 1930's.
 
How important is it for Amtrak to make this change?

Are there many people wanting to keep the present route?
One thing to keep in mind is the Scout use to get to Philmont. The train stops in Raton, NM. For the past couple of decades, many Scouts' first exposure to train travel was on the Chief, on the way to and from Philmont. I think exposure such as this, and other train rides, are important if we are to have new passengers, younger train advocates, and more folks, riding trains. I was a bit fortunate in that one of my assistant Scoutmasters during my youth insisted on taking the train when practical for High Adventure trips. It meant that we traveled from WI to FL by train, as well as taking the train to and from Philmont. by taking the train to High Adventure trips such as Philmont, it can create an interest in train travel that lasts into one's adulthood. While the overall ridership and passenger volume may not change with the addition of service to Lubbock and Amarillo TX, the number of poeple exposed to train travel in the Scout days will most certainly decline. What I'm saying is that if the Chief is rerouted off of the Raton Pass line, the Scout business will evaporate. This may result in a drastic reduction of future train passengers and train supporters.
 
How important is it for Amtrak to make this change?

Are there many people wanting to keep the present route?
One thing to keep in mind is the Scout use to get to Philmont. The train stops in Raton, NM. For the past couple of decades, many Scouts' first exposure to train travel was on the Chief, on the way to and from Philmont. I think exposure such as this, and other train rides, are important if we are to have new passengers, younger train advocates, and more folks, riding trains. I was a bit fortunate in that one of my assistant Scoutmasters during my youth insisted on taking the train when practical for High Adventure trips. It meant that we traveled from WI to FL by train, as well as taking the train to and from Philmont. by taking the train to High Adventure trips such as Philmont, it can create an interest in train travel that lasts into one's adulthood. While the overall ridership and passenger volume may not change with the addition of service to Lubbock and Amarillo TX, the number of poeple exposed to train travel in the Scout days will most certainly decline. What I'm saying is that if the Chief is rerouted off of the Raton Pass line, the Scout business will evaporate. This may result in a drastic reduction of future train passengers and train supporters.
It won't happen just because of Philmont. There's other ways to Raton, and nobody will fund maintainence of the line. The SWC has a 90% chance of being rerouted. Don't get your hopes up too high. The Transcon is simply a better line.
 
The facilities are already in place and have been for many years on the tracks where the Southwest Chief is cu.rently allowed 90 mph, but not on many (all?) of the other lines allowing 70 mph freightsw
However, the "PTC mandate" is going to require ATS along most of these lines on December 15, 2015 in any case. Wwhich should release the 79 mph speed limit and allow 90 mph operation on a number of the busier mainlines; I would expect higher speeds on the Lake Shore Limited, Empire Builder, and Crescent routes, for instance. (On routes like that of the Cardinal, however, the track isn't maintained for 70mph freight.)

The Scout business is not going to be nearly enough to pay to keep the SW Chief on its current route.

Back when Richardson (D) was governor, he was going to buy the New Mexico part of the Raton Pass line -- which is no longer used for freight at all -- but his successor Martinez ® actually reneged on the deal, sparking lawsuits. (And wasting, IIRC, $15 million in "earnest money" in order to save $5 million -- I think I have the numbers right but I could be misremembering). Martinez isn't up for election until November 2014. Amtrak told the states they have to commit to funding the route by the end of 2014 in order to preserve it; that clearly won't happen in New Mexico. Judging by what MikeM says, it won't happen in Kansas. So unless Colorado suddenly decides that the route is of paramount interest, which seems unlikely, it's going away.

Now, it seems clear that Amtrak will continue to serve Albuquerque (going north to ABQ and then south again out of it). The greater worry I have is -- will anyone bother to open stations in Amarillo and Wichita? If stations are opened in those two cities, I think the patronage would be substantial, and I think the awareness of rail travel would go up significantly in those highly populated areas, and I think it would be an all-around improvement. But if the train blows through without stopping... that would suck. There are at least *some* businessmen and activists pushing to get a station in Wichita, but I've heard *nothing, zilch, nada* from Amarillo.
 
The facilities are already in place and have been for many years on the tracks where the Southwest Chief is cu.rently allowed 90 mph, but not on many (all?) of the other lines allowing 70 mph freightsw
However, the "PTC mandate" is going to require ATS along most of these lines on December 15, 2015 in any case. Wwhich should release the 79 mph speed limit and allow 90 mph operation on a number of the busier mainlines; I would expect higher speeds on the Lake Shore Limited, Empire Builder, and Crescent routes, for instance. (On routes like that of the Cardinal, however, the track isn't maintained for 70mph freight.)

The Scout business is not going to be nearly enough to pay to keep the SW Chief on its current route.

Back when Richardson (D) was governor, he was going to buy the New Mexico part of the Raton Pass line -- which is no longer used for freight at all -- but his successor Martinez ® actually reneged on the deal, sparking lawsuits. (And wasting, IIRC, $15 million in "earnest money" in order to save $5 million -- I think I have the numbers right but I could be misremembering). Martinez isn't up for election until November 2014. Amtrak told the states they have to commit to funding the route by the end of 2014 in order to preserve it; that clearly won't happen in New Mexico. Judging by what MikeM says, it won't happen in Kansas. So unless Colorado suddenly decides that the route is of paramount interest, which seems unlikely, it's going away.

Now, it seems clear that Amtrak will continue to serve Albuquerque (going north to ABQ and then south again out of it). The greater worry I have is -- will anyone bother to open stations in Amarillo and Wichita? If stations are opened in those two cities, I think the patronage would be substantial, and I think the awareness of rail travel would go up significantly in those highly populated areas, and I think it would be an all-around improvement. But if the train blows through without stopping... that would suck. There are at least *some* businessmen and activists pushing to get a station in Wichita, but I've heard *nothing, zilch, nada* from Amarillo.
I live very close to Amarillo, and know that there is significant available ridership in Amarillo and the surrounding area. As for the station, there is no reason to open a station if they don't have definitive proof that the SWC will roll through Amarillo or not. As soon as they know a station will be built or additions to the existing station. The station platform lies on the mainline but it is very feasible for #3 and #4 to stop on the main line because Amtrak would take about the same to a little more time than it would take for a freight train to change crews. The owner of the station has even told Amtrak that he would let them use the station before, so i wouldn't say Amarillo being quiet about, they are just waiting to see what happens
 
Don't worry, I'm pretty sure that when the routing is comfirmed that Wichita and Amarillo will get some stations ready. There's too much pax to miss out.
 
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I agree. The defacto scenario is that the train WILL be rerouted. $100 Mil + $10 Mil per year is steep for cash strapped states, and their respective departments of transportation have said so in a memo to Amtrak. The problem that I see is that even if they keep the Transcon up to Class 5 standards, the line is so busy that it's doubtful that Amtrak will be able to leapfrog around the freight traffic, relegating their speed to the freight max. When I lived in New Mexico, I would hang out in Belen and train watch. There were often 4-5 trains in the yard just waiting for a position in the constant stream of traffic. Granted, that was while Abo Canyon was still single track, but still the fact remains that it will be difficult to actually let Amtrak keep max "P" speeds when it is stuffed between "F"s.
 
I agree with those who put the chance of a reroute at over 90%.

I was on the SWC Albuquerque-Chicago with my family this past July and was surprised by how much slower the train was moving through certain areas...... slow orders around Lamy, the trip over Raton Pass itself..... compared to trips on the Chief just 5 and 10 years ago.

The more time passes without any heavy maintenance being done on the line, the more costly it will be to bring it up to acceptable standards later. The traditional passenger route over Raton Pass is very much on borrowed time.

I can even envision a scenario where a major washout somewhere in Northern New Mexico forces the Chief to 'detour' via the transcon sooner than 2016 and when all things are considered, the detour simply becomes permanent with a handful of temporary passenger shelters hastily put in place along the transcon.
 
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However, the "PTC mandate" is going to require ATS along most of these lines on December 15, 2015 in any case. Wwhich should release the 79 mph speed limit and allow 90 mph operation on a number of the busier mainlines; I would expect higher speeds on the Lake Shore Limited, Empire Builder, and Crescent routes, for instance. (On routes like that of the Cardinal, however, the track isn't maintained for 70mph freight.)
I think you are in for severe disappointment. Since PTC is not going to retime crossing gates, and CSX, NS or BNSFisn't going to do it unless paid for by someone else. LSL, Crescent and EB will continue to run at exactly the speed at which it runs now, PTC or not.
 
When we were on the SWC in November, the crew talked as if it's a definite. Our SCA made announcements between La Junta and Raton, teaching us the history of the area. She told us to hang onto our route guides and timetables as souvenirs, as this route wouldn't be around much longer. She didn't get into politics; she just said that it cost a lot to maintain the tracks, so Amtrak would likely move to a new route and BNSF would use the current route for their coal trains.
 
So does the S W Chief reach 90 mph between Chicago & Albuquerque?

And how much longer do you think we can ride the current route through Raton Pass?
 
So does the S W Chief reach 90 mph between Chicago & Albuquerque?

And how much longer do you think we can ride the current route through Raton Pass?
At most three more years...... but quite possibly less if some disruption (ie: washout) deemed too costly to bother with occurs.
 
On the current route, where would you say are the points of track that the Southwest Chief can run at speeds up to 90mph?

Or is most of the route 90 mph? We plan to take the Chief in early April. Just wondering where the top speed zones will be....
 
I used my GPS last time and noticed 90 mph through portions of western IL, north central MO, and KS. The overnight through KS is pretty quick, and the train rocks and rolls.

There are several long stretches of 65-75 mph; the average speed for the entire trip was 60 mph.

The CO and northern NM portions are sometimes mind-numbingly slow. We were going approx. 9 mph through the Raton and Glorieta area, sometimes hitting a whopping 19 mph. ;)

Keep in mind our trip is always CHI to ABQ. Past ABQ, I'm not sure where the 90 mph stretches are.
 
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Yes - we are going CHI to ABQ - but we may change our tickets to be Lamy to Santa Fe, since we plan to stay in Santa Fe. Was not sure if we should stay on the train for that last hour? I hate to miss the station in Albuquerque and the tradition there. Also has a car rental counter which is nice for getting in and out quickly..

What are your thoughts on that last segment from Lamy to ABQ? I know we would miss seeing Sandia Peak too.
 
I used to make point runs between ABQ and Lamy. I enjoyed it, but after going through Raton Pass to Lamy, you won't miss too much more. If you are encumbered by luggage, I recommend the Lamy - Santa Fe shuttle from either direction. If you are interested in mileage and railroading, go into ABQ, experience the atmosphere there, and take the NM Railrunner Express back up to Santa Fe. Only about 1/3 to 1/2 of the back tracking to Santa Fe will be on the same rail.

Now, keep in mind - you can book your trip to Santa Fe through Lamy and just take the NM Railrunner Express down to ABQ & back (or heck - take it all the way to Belen; there's a nice coffee shop there), but you will likely miss the platform vendors as they are only there while Amtrak is in the station.
 
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When I rode out last April there were burst of 90 MPH for about five or ten miles at a time. It is quite a rush when you blast past a freight on the other main track. The 90 MPH running allows the Chief to get into LA early most days.
 
From a purely operations point of view, I can imagine that the up side of Raton Pass is that there are no other trains so there's not much that can slow the SWC down apart from itself.

So even if from a purely running-time perspective the Transcon route is equivalent, how is it from the point of view of reliability versus conflicts.

I was on a road-trip with a railfan friend through NM some years ago and this trip took us broadly parallel to the transcon and we saw plenty of trains, which was nice, but less pleasantly we saw quite a few that weren't moving. That doesn't bode well for the SWC. Of course I don't know if this was typical or if BNSF was having a bad day.
 
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