BBRR/NS Question

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Anderson

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This is a bit random, but the CVS station is located at the intersection of the BBRR and NS. Has there been any thought given to simply installing some sort of interchange there so that the Cardinal could be pulled off the BBRR east of CVS? And if this were possible, would doing so (and presumably adjusting the CVS station accordingly) be cheaper than improving the BBRR east of CVS?
 
This is a bit random, but the CVS station is located at the intersection of the BBRR and NS. Has there been any thought given to simply installing some sort of interchange there so that the Cardinal could be pulled off the BBRR east of CVS? And if this were possible, would doing so (and presumably adjusting the CVS station accordingly) be cheaper than improving the BBRR east of CVS?
I sure would think so. If it were up to me, this improvement would have been made a long time ago. A sharper turn switch would not compromise the length of the platform, and I think the sooner you can get away from the coal empties on the BBRR the better.
 
Perhaps one of our resident track construction experts can weigh in here. In looking at Google Maps satellite view, I'm not sure there's quite enough room to build the connecting track from BB to NS, plus the crossover from the western track to the eastern track, plus have the southbound home signal for the interlocking, all before you reach the platform.

EDIT: There is a connecting track in the opposite quadrant of the junction, which I think gives some idea of just how much room is required to make that kind of a connection (granted, it runs into the siding on the NS, and not the mainline, but you still get some idea of where it would connect to the main). If that's the amount of space required, and they couldn't build it on a tighter radius, then it really does look like there isn't enough room to make the connection and still hit the platform.
 
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Expensive real estate. BBRR and NS

goes through edge UVA campus and Hospital area. Charlottesville fought a bypass of US29 for years. Don't think you could destroy an area in center of city for a railroad track.
 
Perhaps one of our resident track construction experts can weigh in here. In looking at Google Maps satellite view, I'm not sure there's quite enough room to build the connecting track from BB to NS, plus the crossover from the western track to the eastern track, plus have the southbound home signal for the interlocking, all before you reach the platform.
That is correct. I am no track laying expert, but immediately visible issues to me are:

1. The connection that could be built would have to be from the freight bypass western track which does not have a platform and does not have room for putting in a platform, without significant property acquisition from adjacent building's lot.

2. The connecting track will require some more property acquisition to make room for it.

3. There is no room for putting in a crossover from the west to the east track without moving the station half a mile or so north, which would move it too far away from the station building.

One conceivable possibility is to move the platform track further east to make room for an island platform between the two tracks. This still does not remove the entire property acquisition issue, but reduces the scope somewhat. But this runs into a couple of issues:

1. This will require re-laying out the yard on the east side of the track south of the BBRR crossing.

2. It will fail to meet one of NS's requirements that while an Amtrak train is platformed it can run freight around it on the freight track. When an Amtrak train is platformed on this new west platform track, the east track will have to be blocked for passenger safety, since the station facilities are on the east of the RoW.

Of course anything can be done with enough money. But just to run a train 20 mins or 30 mins faster on a 24 hour + schedule? There is literally no other candidate for using that connection. It will be a total of 6 trains a week at present and perhaps 14 trains a week some day.

So I think it is highly unlikely to happen because that money can be better spent elsewhere,
 
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You're not talking about destroying an area in the center of a city.

And UVa doesn't have a campus. :p

It looks like there is a little bit of a "kink" in the BBRR - if you straighten that out, it looks like you could squeeze something in.

http://goo.gl/maps/TYSs

CVS_Realignment.png


Edit: Jis' resposnse wasn't there when I started - I'm to track laying expert either, but it looks like you might be able to squeeze it in to me.
 
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The reason there is the kink is to make the diamond crossing not require active switch points at the crossing frogs. I doubt that either NS or BBRR are going to like adding that feature while straightening out the kink. But as I said, enough money (and bribe ;) ) can achieve anything.
 
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The major problem with the Buckingham Branch route is that the sidings are not long to accommodate westbound 8000 ft long CSX empty coal trains. For the cost of a connecting track with some land acquisition and station platform moves in CVS, they might be able to extend several of the sidings on the BB North Mountain Subdivision (the 116 miles from Bob-East Gordonville to Clifton Forge) to 8500' or 9000'. That would clear a major obstacle to a daily Cardinal.

I have been monitoring the Cardinals in recent months on Amtrak Status Map on the days they pass through VA. The delays, which have been bad, have been mostly between CVS and Clifton Forge. Or more accurately, a usually late eastbound #50 gets even later by the time it gets to CVS. The Cardinals are passing through VA today; we'll see if today is an ok day or another bad day.

The state of Virginia is putting a fair amount of funding into track repair, maintenance and signal upgrades for the BB lines. Tens of millions. I just retrieved recently approved VA FY 2013 Rail and Public Transportation program budget document from the VDRPT website finance page. The link is on the right under the Six Year Improvement Plans. Page 62 shows all the scheduled BB branch projects through FY18. Pg 61 are the subsidies to Amtrak, pages 58 to 60 are the NS, CSX, and the PE & EIS studies for the RF&P line (to take through FY19!). The projects on the BB don't get press coverage; want to find out what is going on, dig into the state budget documents.

But there is a Very Interesting new line item on page 62 titled "North Mountain Siding Project" which is budgeted for $7 million in FY13 and FY14. Hmmm. I checked, this was not in the 5 year planning in the FY12 budget. I'll have to dig later to see if there a description of the project.
 
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The major problem with the Buckingham Branch route is that the sidings are not long to accommodate westbound 8000 ft long CSX empty coal trains. For the cost of a connecting track with some land acquisition and station platform moves in CVS, they might be able to extend several of the sidings on the BB North Mountain Subdivision (the 116 miles from Bob-East Gordonville to Clifton Forge) to 8500' or 9000'. That would clear a major obstacle to a daily Cardinal.
That is a very good point. Longer sidings between CVS and Clifton Forge will do way more to improve Cardinal than running it on NS to CVS. The other thing that would make the connection at CVS mostly unnecessary would be getting some welded rails and new ties on the track between Orange and Gordonsville, which is already being done.

At present the Crescent takes 57 mins from Culpeper to CVS and the Cardinal takes 1:16. Track improvement between Orange and Gordonsville will get that down 10 mins or so to 1:05 to 1:08 or so. So all this switch putting in, maintenance of three additional switches and possibly moving frog diamonds just to save 8 to 10 mins on a 24 hour schedule, which could be made way more reliable by adding sidings using the money needed for the connection instead? What would you do?

Also, an argument for longer sidings can be made purely for improving freight performance too, given that the Cardinal is going to be there no matter what, and it serves a public purpose. That may very well be part of the justification used by the Commonwealth of Virginia to fund that project.
 
The reason there is the kink is to make the diamond crossing not require active switch points at the crossing frogs. I doubt that either NS or BBRR are going to like adding that feature while straightening out the kink. But as I said, enough money (and bribe ;) ) can achieve anything.
I suspected that might be the case. Even without straightening the kink, it still doesn't look wildly infeasable. The good news is that speed isn't going to be an issue for any train taking the switch, so you can go with pretty tight turns.

All that said, I agree that lengthening sidings would give much better bang for the buck.
 
The major problem with the Buckingham Branch route is that the sidings are not long to accommodate westbound 8000 ft long CSX empty coal trains. For the cost of a connecting track with some land acquisition and station platform moves in CVS, they might be able to extend several of the sidings on the BB North Mountain Subdivision (the 116 miles from Bob-East Gordonville to Clifton Forge) to 8500' or 9000'. That would clear a major obstacle to a daily Cardinal.
That is a very good point. Longer sidings between CVS and Clifton Forge will do way more to improve Cardinal than running it on NS to CVS. The other thing that would make the connection at CVS mostly unnecessary would be getting some welded rails and new ties on the track between Orange and Gordonsville, which is already being done.

At present the Crescent takes 57 mins from Culpeper to CVS and the Cardinal takes 1:16. Track improvement between Orange and Gordonsville will get that down 10 mins or so to 1:05 to 1:08 or so. So all this switch putting in, maintenance of three additional switches and possibly moving frog diamonds just to save 8 to 10 mins on a 24 hour schedule, which could be made way more reliable by adding sidings using the money needed for the connection instead? What would you do?

Also, an argument for longer sidings can be made purely for improving freight performance too, given that the Cardinal is going to be there no matter what, and it serves a public purpose. That may very well be part of the justification used by the Commonwealth of Virginia to fund that project.
I knew there were BBRR problems; I didn't know if they carried on past CVS or not. As to the CVS issue, would it not be possible to move the Cardinal to the western track before CVS and just stick a new platform there? The walk around the tracks via Main Street should be handicap accessible if you want to avoid crossing tracks that badly (and I've had to do so at several stations, notably RVR and OSC).

It's also interesting...there's a link from BBRR-NS heading south, but nothing heading north.

And finally, this was actually inspired by me first driving through Charlottesville yesterday and pulling up the Google map of the area after the track layouts gave me a headache.

Edit: On the DRPT stuff...yeah, those EISes are driving me nuts. It takes longer to study a major project than to build it (from what I can tell, 3-4 years is quick) because of the National Extremely Pointless Act study requirements. Honestly, the rail project delays associated with lengthy EISes have done more to put me against environmentalists than anything else I can think of.
 
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I knew there were BBRR problems; I didn't know if they carried on past CVS or not. As to the CVS issue, would it not be possible to move the Cardinal to the western track before CVS and just stick a new platform there? The walk around the tracks via Main Street should be handicap accessible if you want to avoid crossing tracks that badly (and I've had to do so at several stations, notably RVR and OSC).
Anything is possible. The fundamental question is given limited resources where do you get maximum bang for the buck say about $10 or $15 million? Since it would be a new platform construction it will have to abide by new platform standard rules etc. Whereas an existing platform can lie in peace as it is.

It's also interesting...there's a link from BBRR-NS heading south, but nothing heading north.
Since there is not much of commercial interest between CVS and Orange, and the ex-C&O BBRR line connects into ex-Southern NS at Orange facing that way anyway, absolutely no purpose would have been served by a north quadrant connection. The south quadrant connection gave C&O an ability to interchange with Southern heading South. They were already able to interchange north at Orange.

It is for the same reason again, once BBRR is improved there will be very little reason to build the north quadrant connector, and that is why it is not surprising that it is not on anyone's roadmap AFAICT. Indeed taking one train off of NS's single track railroad at Orange is something that NS probably appreciates :)
 
You're not talking about destroying an area in the center of a city.

And UVa doesn't have a campus. :p

.
No, we don't have a campus, we have "grounds" which are both beautiful and historic, and it is expensive real estate
 
I knew there were BBRR problems; I didn't know if they carried on past CVS or not. As to the CVS issue, would it not be possible to move the Cardinal to the western track before CVS and just stick a new platform there? The walk around the tracks via Main Street should be handicap accessible if you want to avoid crossing tracks that badly (and I've had to do so at several stations, notably RVR and OSC).

It's also interesting...there's a link from BBRR-NS heading south, but nothing heading north.
The connection on the south side of the BBRR-NS crossing is useful, because it would allow a future cross Virginia train: Roanoke - Lynchburg - CVS - Richmond Main Street (RVM) - Norfolk via the BB East Gordonville to Doswell line (BB Piedmont Subdivision). Won't happen in the near term, but when/if the route through RVM is fully restored, the Southeast HSR is partially in place with increased service to NC, and there is multiple daily frequency service to Norfolk, Roanoke, with CVS becoming a busy station, there should be enough business to support a cross VA service. Set the schedule to support connections to the Cardinal to CHI and a Silver/Palmetto in RVM. At that point, VA has pretty good railroad service. VA will be providing funds to bring the Piedmont Subdivision up to Class III standards, so the BB tracks will be viable for passenger service in a few years.

For the shortline improvement projects in VA, found this Nov 2009 "Statewide Shortline Railroad Improvement Plan Technical Memorandum" for those interested in the planning. The sections on the BB are the relevant sections for Amtrak service. Page 10 is a map of the shortline railroads in VA which should help people understand where the BB lines are. Pages 24-25 lists the 2009 recommended six year projects for the BB lines. Lot of tie replacements, new ballast, in-track welding to eliminate the jointed rail.

The $7 million ($4.9 million from VA) now allocated for North Mountain Siding Project is not in the 2009 plans, so this is recent. There is no need to pursue a major shift of the Cardinal route to avoid the BB line, as VA is providing funds to get the tracks to a state of good repair. The funding is in annual increments, so it will take a few years, but to arrange a re-route via NS through Roanoke would likely take a lot longer. VA's primary motivation is to maintain and improve freight rail service within VA and to the ports in Hampton Roads and Norfolk. But, with the growth in ridership at CVS because of the Lynchburger, a daily Cardinal would provide afternoon service to/from CVS to the NEC and to WV that people can plan on. May well be some influential business leaders in CVS who have asked DRPT and Amtrak why the heck they can't get a daily Cardinal to WAS and NYP.
 
Fair points all around there. The biggest hiccup that I see in a cross-VA service going to Charlottesville (A CVS to CVS? ;) ) is the TDX plans, which would route that service to Lynchburg instead of to Charlottesville. The reason this is an issue, IMHO, is that unless you're doing a Riley-style through car operation, I don't see RVR/RVM-CVS alone being enough to support a train (heck, technically I think such a run would be shorter than the "normal" 100 mile lower limit for intercity travel). Could running it through to NPN/NFK prop things up enough? Possibly, and ditto extending it further in the west.

Likewise, doing so would involve even more BBRR running, and IIRC that track is in lousy condition for passenger service as a whole.

Edit: Part of the reason I'm inclined to, at least at the moment, rule out two different routes there is that I suspect it will be easier (and more appealing in many ways) to get 2-3 trains/day going on a given routing and then adding a second route. Doing one a day on each routing without seriously looking at adding other trains is likely to dilute ridership at least somewhat, and having one train take far longer than the other might also lead to a bit of confusion as well.
 
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Likewise, doing so would involve even more BBRR running, and IIRC that track is in lousy condition for passenger service as a whole.
If you think dispatching situation for eastbounds are bad on BBRR, be prepared to face a similar situation with dispatching on westbounds on the Petersburg - Lynchburg line which carries those loaded coal trains eastbound, the empties of which clog up BBRR. :)
 
You know, it's a real shame that there's no good way to set up the runs such that you could directionally run passenger trains on the different lines. The only real hangup is CVS, actually, and that's just too big of a stop to skip.
 
Fair points all around there. The biggest hiccup that I see in a cross-VA service going to Charlottesville (A CVS to CVS? ;) ) is the TDX plans, which would route that service to Lynchburg instead of to Charlottesville. The reason this is an issue, IMHO, is that unless you're doing a Riley-style through car operation, I don't see RVR/RVM-CVS alone being enough to support a train (heck, technically I think such a run would be shorter than the "normal" 100 mile lower limit for intercity travel). Could running it through to NPN/NFK prop things up enough? Possibly, and ditto extending it further in the west.

Likewise, doing so would involve even more BBRR running, and IIRC that track is in lousy condition for passenger service as a whole.

Edit: Part of the reason I'm inclined to, at least at the moment, rule out two different routes there is that I suspect it will be easier (and more appealing in many ways) to get 2-3 trains/day going on a given routing and then adding a second route. Doing one a day on each routing without seriously looking at adding other trains is likely to dilute ridership at least somewhat, and having one train take far longer than the other might also lead to a bit of confusion as well.
I took a look at the proposed TDX route, which I had forgotten runs directly from Lynchburg to Richmond. You are right, the TDX east-west route would not go to CVS and, yes, VA is unlikely to run 2 east-west routes (well, without a major return of passenger rail in VA). I think there would be interest in a CVS to Richmond to Norfolk or NPN service, but enough to support a train by itself without continuing to Lynchburg & Roanoke? Something to re-consider someday.

With regards to the BBRR line from CVS to Doswell, if $500 or $600 million is spent on restoring service through RVM with major track upgrades, another $100 or $150 million extending service to Roanoke, upgrading the BBRR to class IV tracks would be something that the state would pay for.

But this is way down the road stuff. First got to get Norfolk to multiple daily trains, extend service to Roanoke, and spend the big bucks to have all the Amtrak trains to Richmond run to or through RVM. Maybe in ten years?
 
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