Man falls from train!

According to this article a man falls from a train on his way to Chicago. The article does not say but I assume it was the Empire Builder. IIRC there was another case about a year or so ago where someone fell from the AutoTrain. To the best of my recollection that case was never solved. This may end up the same way.

How does a person just fall from a Superliner?

Opens the entry door?

There are no locks on them! That's why the reminders are made to "not open the doors or windows"!

the_traveler said:

Opens the entry door?

There are no locks on them! That's why the reminders are made to "not open the doors or windows"!

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You mean like opening the door on purpose as in suicide?

the_traveler said:

Opens the entry door?

There are no locks on them! That's why the reminders are made to "not open the doors or windows"!

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So how did this man manage to close the door or window while "falling" from the train? Or is it your opinion that the door or window simply remained wide open without arousing anyone's suspicion? I'm just curious what you think happened since it's not obvious to me what you're actually trying to say.

Hanno said:

the_traveler said:

Opens the entry door?

There are no locks on them! That's why the reminders are made to "not open the doors or windows"!

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You mean like opening the door on purpose as in suicide?

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On purpose, whether as a suicide attempt or for fun or to take a picture or whatever.

Or opening the door "just to look out from a moving train" or "to get a better photo" - and then slipping or falling after the train hits a bump in the track! Even some Conductors or other crew have fallen of a train via the open door - and I doubt that it was a suicide!

Texas Sunset said:

the_traveler said:

Opens the entry door?

There are no locks on them! That's why the reminders are made to "not open the doors or windows"!

Click to expand...

So how did this man manage to close the door or window while "falling" from the train? Or is it your opinion that the door or window simply remained wide open without arousing anyone's suspicion? I'm just curious what you think happened since it's not obvious to me what you're actually trying to say.

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Unless somebody happens to go to the lower level to say go to the rest room or get something from the luggage rack, how would know the door or window was open? And even if you did happen to go down and find the door or window open, how would you know if if just happened, it happened 50 miles ago or 100 miles ago?

When I'm on the upper level and the train stops at a station, I do not know if the door in my car is open unless I see people getting off from my car!

Texas Sunset said:

the_traveler said:

Opens the entry door?

There are no locks on them! That's why the reminders are made to "not open the doors or windows"!

Click to expand...

So how did this man manage to close the door or window while "falling" from the train? Or is it your opinion that the door or window simply remained wide open without arousing anyone's suspicion? I'm just curious what you think happened since it's not obvious to me what you're actually trying to say.

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That's a good point. Setting aside foul play (and why should we?) I wonder if a person could slip out between cars?

If a door or window is open, what is the likelihood that it will close on its own?

Maybe "the conductor did it".

Maybe a case for Poirot. :blink:

the_traveler said:

Unless somebody happens to go to the lower level to say go to the rest room or get something from the luggage rack, how would know the door or window was open?

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Well, you'd have the wind and the noise of a train at speed for one thing. I'm also guessing the door would be banging against the car over time.

the_traveler said:

And even if you did happen to go down and find the door or window open, how would you know if if just happened, it happened 50 miles ago or 100 miles ago?

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I suppose you'd ask the people on the bottom level or near the stairs if they had seen or heard anything and for how long.

buck1108 said:

That's a good point. Setting aside foul play (and why should we?) I wonder if a person could slip out between cars? If a door or window is open, what is the likelihood that it will close on its own? Maybe "the conductor did it". Maybe a case for Poirot.

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I don't think you can fall between the cars without cutting through the accordion covering, which would presumably be rather obvious due to a sudden increase in noise and wind. Even if it wasn't it would easy to spot when the next person when through and saw a gaping hole large enough to fit a body through. Assuming the train was operating on or near the intended schedule it's not like you're going to get a great action shot for your camera between two and three in the morning by hanging out of the doorway as was previously theorized. I actually think that foul play probably makes the most sense so far. I honestly can't come up with any other explanation with the information we have thus far. I wonder if this death is related to the other nighttime "falling" death on the EB last year in Montana.

Texas Sunset said:

the_traveler said:

Unless somebody happens to go to the lower level to say go to the rest room or get something from the luggage rack, how would know the door or window was open?

Click to expand...

Well, you'd have the wind and the noise of a train at speed for one thing. I'm also guessing the door would be banging against the car over time.

the_traveler said:

And even if you did happen to go down and find the door or window open, how would you know if if just happened, it happened 50 miles ago or 100 miles ago?

Click to expand...

I suppose you'd ask the people on the bottom level or near the stairs if they had seen or heard anything and for how long.

buck1108 said:

That's a good point. Setting aside foul play (and why should we?) I wonder if a person could slip out between cars? If a door or window is open, what is the likelihood that it will close on its own? Maybe "the conductor did it". Maybe a case for Poirot.

Click to expand...

I don't think you can fall between the cars without cutting through the accordion covering, which would presumably be rather obvious due to a sudden increase in noise and wind. Even if it wasn't it would easy to spot when the next person when through and saw a gaping hole large enough to fit a body through. Assuming the train was operating on or near the intended schedule it's not like you're going to get a great action shot for your camera between two and three in the morning by hanging out of the doorway as was previously theorized. I actually think that foul play probably makes the most sense so far. I honestly can't come up with any other explanation with the information we have thus far. I wonder if this death is related to the other nighttime "falling" death on the EB last year in Montana.

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I hear you on both points - the truth can be inconvenient and sometimes wacky. Maybe he was assisted in a 'dare' sort of jump, or maybe that's how the lounge car attendant rids the car of 'holdovers' past closing hours? j/k Bertha's a big gal! :giggle:

maybe he was trying to take a smoke break

john h said:

maybe he was trying to take a smoke break

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Actually, could be he was trying to take a prohibited smoke break. Also could be that as he was falling, he tried to grab the door but couldn't hold on but managed to accidentally close it.

Ah! The little brain cells are working!

/s/ Hercule

My sister discovered a somewhat different way to fall from a train. This was way preAmtrak, mid 50s.

She was on Southern Railroad's "Pelican" traveling from Chattanooga to Tuscaloosa.She was headed back to the diner while stopped in Birmingham, not realizing the diner was removed in Birmingham.

They had failed to put up a sign or a flag or lock the door or whatever they were supposed to do to warn a passenger that a space between cars was about to open up.

She fell right through! She was not hurt. We should have sued though for some reason we did not.

john h said:

maybe he was trying to take a smoke break

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Or maybe he was just trying to find the bathroom!

Not long ago I was in a roomette and an elderly gentleman, who had serious dementia, kept wandering the hall. He was with a family, but they didn't keep a close eye on him. He'd be off looking for the bathroom. (This was in a Viewliner, mind you) Then he was trying to find his own room or his people. I helped him back to his roomette a number of times, once at something like 4:30 in the AM.

So the guy who 'left the train' COULD have been looking for the toilet, if he was anything like the guy in my sleeper.

If he fell from opening the passenger door on a moving train, this would be similar to what happened to the woman who fell from the AutoTrain. If this happens this frequently, perhaps there needs to be a safety design improvement on the Superliners. Manual locking of each door would be too cumbersome to implement. A retrofit of a central control lock system for all doors could be expensive.

One self-contained solution could be to hook up an accelerometer detector circuit and have the door automatically lock at speeds above 10 mph. Of course, there would need to be an override for safety in case of emergencies in case the accelerometer lock mechanism jams or fails, but the override can be a several step lever turning process that prevents anyone from accidentally opening the door.

I'll have to check the Next Generation bi-level car specification to see if it says anything about door opening safety requirements.

Maybe he fell out of the train but only opened the door partway and it slipped back into place, or close enough for people not to realize.

The lever-latches on vestibule passenger car doors are the best around and have been in widespread use for scores of years.

That Empire Builder was exactly an hour late leaving Fargo at 03:13 Monday 19 March. Victim fell off the train 20 miles later, which would be about 03:30. That's flat country and (pretty) straight track, speed limit probably 70. So really quickly after he boarded, he disembarked.

Foulplay? Disoriented? Unfamiliar? I dunno. Obit notes victim Jared Nilles, 27, was a college grad, a writer, performer and athlete. He was a Fargo native and attended school -- and worked some projects -- in Minneapolis, so I'm betting he had ridden the Builder before.

And here's the link to our thread on falling-off Auto Train fatality Mrs. Arteta.

People fall off trains, but not very often. We can't succumb to the over-do-safety reactionary consciousness of fear that seems to grip some citizens in this nation whenever something "disastrous" or tragic happens.

And kudos to that freight conductor who had pretty good eyes to spy a body on the right-of-way in the pre-sunrise twilight at 07:00. He must eat a lot of carrots.

All this talk about "accidentally closing" the door makes no sense to me. Have any of you ever closed the lower level exterior doors on a Superliner? It's not something you could easily do while falling to your death. Here are some other considerations.

* The "Dare Gone Wrong"

With a dare there would presumably be witnesses to see the dare performed, along with a reactionary commotion and/or emotional aftereffects that would have made the event even more obvious. Doesn't quite pan out.

* The "Smoke Break"

If it was a smoke break why not just open the window and hold the cigarette outside? Why bother to open the door at all? If the door wasn't open then how did he fall out? Also, how many smokers can't even make it a half hour after having just boarded. Doesn't pan out at all.

* The "Bathroom Fall"

There is absolutely nothing in common between the bathroom door and the exit door. They don't look the same, open the same, or share much of anything else in common. Nor is there any evidence that this passenger would be that confused. Even if he was that confused how did he avoid attracting any attention or leaving the door open?

afigg said:

If he fell from opening the passenger door on a moving train, this would be similar to what happened to the woman who fell from the AutoTrain. If this happens this frequently, perhaps there needs to be a safety design improvement on the Superliners. Manual locking of each door would be too cumbersome to implement. A retrofit of a central control lock system for all doors could be expensive. One self-contained solution could be to hook up an accelerometer detector circuit and have the door automatically lock at speeds above 10 mph. Of course, there would need to be an override for safety in case of emergencies in case the accelerometer lock mechanism jams or fails, but the override can be a several step lever turning process that prevents anyone from accidentally opening the door. I'll have to check the Next Generation bi-level car specification to see if it says anything about door opening safety requirements.

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You're joking, right?

Texas Sunset said:

afigg said:

If he fell from opening the passenger door on a moving train, this would be similar to what happened to the woman who fell from the AutoTrain. If this happens this frequently, perhaps there needs to be a safety design improvement on the Superliners. Manual locking of each door would be too cumbersome to implement. A retrofit of a central control lock system for all doors could be expensive. One self-contained solution could be to hook up an accelerometer detector circuit and have the door automatically lock at speeds above 10 mph. Of course, there would need to be an override for safety in case of emergencies in case the accelerometer lock mechanism jams or fails, but the override can be a several step lever turning process that prevents anyone from accidentally opening the door. I'll have to check the Next Generation bi-level car specification to see if it says anything about door opening safety requirements.

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You're joking, right?

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Not at all. If there have been multiple fatalities from people apparently unintentionally opening the exit door at night, that indicates that there is a safety design flaw. The question is how difficult is it to open a Superliner I or II door when the train is in motion, if you don't know what you are doing?

I looked at the Next Generation Bi-level car specification and Section 8 covers the door systems. The side doors are to be electrically controlled from either a local door control panel or via a trainline command signal from elsewhere on the train. There is wording in it on safety specifications for the 4 side doors such as position sensors to detect that the door is fully closed, zero-speed protection from a wheel slide control unit on each car to deactivate the door control panel system if not at zero-speed, door CLOSE command automatically issued when car motion is detected, and so on. Question is how much of these features are present in the current Superliners?

afigg said:

If there have been multiple fatalities from people apparently unintentionally opening the exit door at night, that indicates that there is a safety design flaw.

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I see no such evidence. Nor is "multiple" a statistically significant number. I'd worry about car crashes, clogged arteries, gun accidents, and falling coconuts long before I'd bother with preventing people from opening doors on trains.

afigg said:

Texas Sunset said:

afigg said:

If he fell from opening the passenger door on a moving train, this would be similar to what happened to the woman who fell from the AutoTrain. If this happens this frequently, perhaps there needs to be a safety design improvement on the Superliners. Manual locking of each door would be too cumbersome to implement. A retrofit of a central control lock system for all doors could be expensive. One self-contained solution could be to hook up an accelerometer detector circuit and have the door automatically lock at speeds above 10 mph. Of course, there would need to be an override for safety in case of emergencies in case the accelerometer lock mechanism jams or fails, but the override can be a several step lever turning process that prevents anyone from accidentally opening the door. I'll have to check the Next Generation bi-level car specification to see if it says anything about door opening safety requirements.

Click to expand...

You're joking, right?

Click to expand...

Not at all. If there have been multiple fatalities from people apparently unintentionally opening the exit door at night, that indicates that there is a safety design flaw. The question is how difficult is it to open a Superliner I or II door when the train is in motion, if you don't know what you are doing?

I looked at the Next Generation Bi-level car specification and Section 8 covers the door systems. The side doors are to be electrically controlled from either a local door control panel or via a trainline command signal from elsewhere on the train. There is wording in it on safety specifications for the 4 side doors such as position sensors to detect that the door is fully closed, zero-speed protection from a wheel slide control unit on each car to deactivate the door control panel system if not at zero-speed, door CLOSE command automatically issued when car motion is detected, and so on. Question is how much of these features are present in the current Superliners?

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I will just pull forward from the thread about the AutoTrain death the following:

Posted 21 September 2010 - 03:50 PM On Superliners for the exterior door you have to un-dog two latches at the bottom and top of the door, then open it. It is not something you can really do by accident. You have to WANT to get that door open. With that said, it isn't at all hard to do, and is fairly obvious, but it does require deliberate action.

This post has been edited by zephyr17: 21 September 2010 - 03:50 PM

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Note that "it does require deliberate action."

Given the apparant physical condition of the lady on the AutoTrain, I have trouble seeing how she managed to do it herself. Did she find aa door open that had been left open by somebody else? Thsi one does not seem to be satisfactorily resolved.

Keep in mind this was a young, educated fellow. I would guess the most logical possibilities to be:

1. Suicide. That should have left the door hanging open, but perhaps the door could swing shut of its own accord, or perhaps it was shut by the next passenger to visit the bathroom. If that happened the story should come out.

2. Intoxication/sleepwalking/other altered mental state. Man accidentally opened door while bumbling around and was sucked out. Should also have left an unlatched door.

3. Foul play. Someone else opened the door, shoved him out, and shut it again. Seems unlikely, but not impossible.

I suppose there's also a possibility that he was not inside the train - that due to arriving late or a sense of adventure he tried to ride the grab irons or between the cars to the next station. If the conductor took his ticket on the train, that option is out.

Mark

afigg said:

I looked at the Next Generation Bi-level car specification and Section 8 covers the door systems. The side doors are to be electrically controlled from either a local door control panel or via a trainline command signal from elsewhere on the train. There is wording in it on safety specifications for the 4 side doors such as position sensors to detect that the door is fully closed, zero-speed protection from a wheel slide control unit on each car to deactivate the door control panel system if not at zero-speed, door CLOSE command automatically issued when car motion is detected, and so on. Question is how much of these features are present in the current Superliners?

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The simple answer to that question is: None. No Superliner cars are equipped with any electronic or automatic door control systems. All vestibule doors are manual, and are identical in both build series.

Now, "California Cars" have door control systems. Technically, even though they share some very large similarities in dimensions and design, CalCars are not Superliners. The new Bi-Level cars will also not be Superliners, but like the current CalCars, will be inter-city commuter cars and as such have two vestibules with a total of four double sliding doors. My understanding it the specs written for the proposed new cars are simply copied and pasted from the old specs, nothing was added or changed.

Being commuter cars, they are designed with a limited number of staff in mind first and foremost. One person can open or close the doors on the entire train, verses needing a person for each individual car. The safety aspect automatic door control provides is likely the second priority of the design, contrary to the common belief that anything safety must be the first and foremost priority to anything anyone does.

It would be interesting to know if his personal belongings were with the body or left on the train.