Superliner III

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wrjensen

Service Attendant
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Oct 20, 2008
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With the talk of the trans-dorm, Snack Coach and everyone favorite the CCC I was thinking what should the new long distance bi-level should be. My thought was to basically replace the Superliner I and the PPC. Looking at the fleet many of them are rebuilt into other types of cars (See Below)

Coach/Baggage 43 18%

Sleeper 57 24%

Lounge 21 9%

Auto Train Lounge (ex-diners) 5 2%

Coach 74 31%

Snack Coach (ex-coach) 9 4%

DinerLounge (ex-dinners) 17 7%

Diner 10 4%

Total 236

H.L. Lounge(Pacific Parlour) 5

For OTOL.com

So based on what should the order include? Is there a new types of cars is need or improved version of the cars?
 
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With the talk of the trans-dorm, Snack Coach and everyone favorite the CCC I was thinking what should the new long distance bi-level should be. My thought was to basically replace the Superliner I and the PPC. Looking at the fleet many of them are rebuilt into other types of cars (See Below)

Coach/Baggage 43 18%

Sleeper 57 24%

Lounge 21 9%

Auto Train Lounge (ex-diners) 5 2%

Coach 74 31%

Snack Coach (ex-coach) 9 4%

DinerLounge (ex-dinners) 17 7%

Diner 10 4%

Total 236

H.L. Lounge(Pacific Parlour) 5

For OTOL.com

So based on what should the order include? Is there a new types of cars is need or improved version of the cars?
Would this be a possible improvement? Use sightseer wrap around windows for sleeping cars to allow upper bunk views ala viewliner?
 
A window for the upper bunk would be a huge improvement- not necessarily the (presumably) expensive curved glass, but at least a taller window or a double row like the Viewliners. A little more headroom in the upper would be helpful as well. One possible change would be to use a straight run of stairs to the upper level like the California bi-levels. The twisty stairs are not a defect to me, but I've heard a lot of complaints. More reliable toilets and HVAC systems are probably a given.

As far as types of cars needed I have no idea
 
I've always thought there could be a market for a higher-density, lower-cost couchette space. Then again, roomettes are fairly efficient as-is.
 
A window for the upper bunk would be a huge improvement- not necessarily the (presumably) expensive curved glass, but at least a taller window or a double row like the Viewliners. A little more headroom in the upper would be helpful as well. One possible change would be to use a straight run of stairs to the upper level like the California bi-levels. The twisty stairs are not a defect to me, but I've heard a lot of complaints. More reliable toilets and HVAC systems are probably a given.As far as types of cars needed I have no idea
These are excellent ideas, I'd add larger restrooms and shower area and utilize the CCCs for afirst class lounge similar to the PPC on the EB/CZ/SWC/the new daily train from CHI-LAX and the CL. Perhaps even converting a few of these hybrids to a true first class lounge would give BG more work!

As to cheaper sleepers (couchettes or Slumber coach etc.) how bout selling the roomettes in the Transition Dorms cheaper without meals! Also to be considered is utuilizing the oldest Superliners that havent been converted and make them into a Slumbercoach type car again without meals. These would be a big hit on the LD Western trains!
 
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While I will hate to see the classic PPCs go, it would be nice if some of the new generation Lounges are upscaled to give a Sleeper Lounge/Diner on all long distance Superliner trains. Of course, if the car cannot produce enough revenue to justify its existence that may not happen system wide.
 
I agree with the idea to make the Superline styairs one straight run. Some people with mobility limitations could use the stairs who can't now. But even better, what about a single person wheelchair lift so handicapped pax on Superliners can use the dining car and the SSL facilities. It wouldn't even need to be inside the car. It could work like the lifts on tour buses and only be used when the train was at a station stop.
 
While the Surfliner type stairs would be nice, it would really deminish the number of rooms per car. And either the accesible or family room would be removed.

I'd say PPCs, etc should not be a top priority, While nice, they were just made to try to make a few extra bucks. I know that they are awesome, but I don't think they will return.

Maybe the diners could get windows similar to the Sightseers (the glass top), but keep the regular window on the bottom.

Maybe transition coaches could be built so mixed consists will appear. As well as a redesigned coach baggage/cafe/ more kiddie-arcade coaches cars to pertain to the family market. Also building cars that have bathrooms that are big enough and have a flushing system that will work on the routes they serve :lol: !

Overall these and some other improvements to the regular cars.
 
While the Surfliner type stairs would be nice, it would really deminish the number of rooms per car. And either the accesible or family room would be removed.I'd say PPCs, etc should not be a top priority, While nice, they were just made to try to make a few extra bucks. I know that they are awesome, but I don't think they will return.

Maybe the diners could get windows similar to the Sightseers (the glass top), but keep the regular window on the bottom.

Maybe transition coaches could be built so mixed consists will appear. As well as a redesigned coach baggage/cafe/ more kiddie-arcade coaches cars to pertain to the family market. Also building cars that have bathrooms that are big enough and have a flushing system that will work on the routes they serve :lol: !

Overall these and some other improvements to the regular cars.
I like the idea of transition coach for multi-level consists. Amtrak is not prone to this but this could make same seat connections from the east coast to the west coast through DC possible. IIRC the CL, during its single level days, had a coach that connected in DC with one of the Silvers to FLA.
 
While I will hate to see the classic PPCs go, it would be nice if some of the new generation Lounges are upscaled to give a Sleeper Lounge/Diner on all long distance Superliner trains. Of course, if the car cannot produce enough revenue to justify its existence that may not happen system wide.
I wonder if there would be a way to make some revenue with these. I have not been on the but it seem that downstairs is a wasted with the arcade/theater.

Could you build it with a lounge upstairs and sleeper downstairs? It would add some revenue from these or they could add dorm downstairs and sell more of the trans dorms rooms. Could the same car design be use as a PPC and the Autotrain lounge cars?

A type of car would be something between the dinner and the lounge/cafe? A car that would replace the CCC and/or the coach/cafe?
 
The Superliners are used primarily on long distance routes that usually include two nights enroute. I believe more sleepers would be the first priority. There never seems to be enough of them.
 
The downstairs of the Pacific Parlor Car is a very nice space, but it is usually empty. A few months ago, my 4 year old and I were the only ones down there watching a godawful kid's movie. Why they show "family " movies while the PPC obviously caters to a much older clientele in beyond me. Maybe use the lower level as an extra fare lounge for coach passengers? A poker room open to all with drinks available upstairs? Or a wifi equipped quiet room? I like the idea of a first class lounge, but it doesn't need to be a whole car. It could be part of a sleeper, part of the crew dorm, or even part of a two class lounge car. The "kiddie car" was a nice idea, but from personal experience the kids and people with kids are going to find each other on a train trip, and in the 21st century the need for an arcade room is long past. Just a few personal observations.
 
It seems Amtrak needs more baggage, diners, & superliner sleepers. If I was designing the sleepers I would make the bottom bed in the bedroom wider. I would also add flannel sheets, better pillows & blankets, & mattress toppers. The bathrooms overall could be a bit larger, too. Even though it would be nice for the upper bunk to have more height & a window, from what I understand it could be a problem with the tunnels.
 
Well, lets see. First, I feel it is important to keep in mind the need for financial efficiency onboard Amtrak trains.

Augmentation:

Sleeper augmentation will be done other ways.

1) 25 standard Superliner coaches for the same reason.

Spares:

1) 6 Sleepers (LA, EMY, SEA, CHI, NOL, WAS)

2) 6 coaches

3) 6 diners

Reasons: You don't need a spare lounge- the diner can do that. You also don't need spare trans-dorms because in the pinch, you can use a standard sleeper.

Additional routes:

I am going to assume some additional routes that Amtrak has aluded to. 2 train sets would be required to comfortably turn the CONO into the City of Miami. The Desert Wind and Pioneer make sense. A North Coast Hiawatha is less sensible, but I suspect certain states would be willing to partner with the feds to make it a reality. I also say that DW and Pioneer should combine into the Desert Pioneer at Denver and produce a second frequency between Denver and Chicago. I also think that trans-dorms are a silly idea. A Baggage/Dorm/Sleeper with the rear part of the crew lounge being for baggage on these short trains makes more sense.

 

So you'd have the following consist for the Desert Pioneer: P42 (P), P42(DW), Bag/Dorm/Sleeper (DW), sleeper (DW), CCC(DW), coach (DW), Coach (DW), Coach (P), Coach (P), CCC (P), Sleeper (P), Bag/Dorm/Sleeper (P).

 

CONO: P42, P42, Bag/Dorm/Sleeper, Sleeper, Diner, Sightseer, Coach, Coach, Coach.

 

NCH: P42, P42, Bag, Trans/dorm (from other trains), sleeper, sleeper, diner, SSL, coach, coach, coach.

 

Now, the CCCs are already there, so diners would be ordered to displace the CCCs from the TE and CONO. You'd need 6 Desert Pioneer sets, 3 COM sets, and 6 NCH sets, and a spare sightseer

1) 15 Bag/dorm/sleeper

2) 27 sleeper

3) 52 coach

4) 21 diners

5) 9 Sightseer

Additional car types.

Several routes running superliners justify these two car types. The first car is an all-bedroom first-class lounge car. It would run on the SWC, CZ, GSL (Nee TE), EB, and CL. The upper level would be all bedrooms and the lower level would be a comfortable bar/lounge set up for first class passengers. 35 cars would be required to meet the need, I think.

The second one is a sort of couchette car, if you will. It is a Superliner sleeper, but the upstairs bathroom, and the luggage rack (will be moved over to displace a pair of bathrooms) become roomettes, as do the bedrooms. The result is 28 roomettes in the car. The H-room becomes 2 bathrooms (so the car retains the original number of bathrooms). The rooms can be reserved in total, or can be shared with a stranger. They do not include meals, and come at a lower price. 45 such cars will be needed.

1) 35 Deluxe Sleeper Lounges,

2) 45 Slumbercoaches.

Order total:

I've added a few additional cars to the overall total.

1) 15 Bag/dorm/sleeper

2) 35 Sleepers

3) 30 Diners

4) 10 Sightseers

5) 85 Coaches

5) 35 Deluxe Sleeper Lounges,

7) 45 Slumbercoaches.

Total: 255 cars: 130 sleeper cars, 85 coaches, 40 food service cars.
 
Only one revenue sleeper on the new CHI-Miami train? Seems like that route warrants at least the usual Sleeper-Sleeper-Transleeper configuration if not more.

Also if there's a route that warrants a sightseer, I would think the new Pioneer would qualify.

Rob
 
It's obvious, at least to me, that if Amtrak is going to order more Superliners, what they need first is more sleepers, built like the rebuilt Superliner 1 sleepers. Given the remarkable prices Amtrak charges (and gets) for high-bucket sleepers, that's where the demand is.

It wouldn't make sense to built economy sleepers because 1) they'd be tenements on wheels, and 2) if successful, they'd just cannibalize demand for the more lucrative real sleepers. In any case, what Amtrak has a shortage of usually is bedrooms.
 
When traveling with my wife I always get the short straw and thus the upper berth. A window on that level would be great. As a solo traveller, I wonder what the financial ramifications would be on having some rooms in the old slumbercoach style.
 
With the talk of the trans-dorm, Snack Coach and everyone favorite the CCC I was thinking what should the new long distance bi-level should be. My thought was to basically replace the Superliner I and the PPC. Looking at the fleet many of them are rebuilt into other types of cars (See Below)

Coach/Baggage 43 18%

Sleeper 57 24%

Lounge 21 9%

Auto Train Lounge (ex-diners) 5 2%

Coach 74 31%

Snack Coach (ex-coach) 9 4%

DinerLounge (ex-dinners) 17 7%

Diner 10 4%

Total 236

H.L. Lounge(Pacific Parlour) 5

For OTOL.com

So based on what should the order include? Is there a new types of cars is need or improved version of the cars?
Well- Considering Amtrak's recent reinvestment in their fleet, I think it would be rather silly to replace recently rebuilt cars at the moment. That said, a small order to boost spares and allow for expansion would be nice.

The spares which I think are really needed are Diners, Sleepers, and TransDorms. 10 each would give us the boost we need to make sure we don't end up too short.

The first thing I see is 3 sets of superliners to get the cardinal up and running as a daily superliner train to DC. (The current Card Sets can go to restoring the Broadway.) 3X (Transition-Sleeper-Diner-Lounge-Coach-CoachBaggage)

I think the cars to run the two other proposed services would also be ideal, namely the Pioneer and North Coast Limited. I also like the idea of restoring the Desert Wind with the Pioneer. The NCL would have a full length consist, 6X(Transition-Sleeper-Sleeper-Diner-Lounge-Coach-Coach-CoachBaggage) The Pioneer and Desert Wind would be combined CHI-DEN, I'd guess something like Desert Wind being a full consist consisting of Transition-Sleeper-Sleeper-Diner-Lounge-Coach-Coach-CoachBaggage, with the Pioneer tacked on the back consisting of a coach-baggage, coach, Diner/Lounge, and a sleeper or two.

Also, I'd like it if the new order had parlours in it. I'd give these first to the Coast Starlight, But I think theyd be good on the Empire Builder too, and perhaps replace the Sleeper Lounges on the Auto Train. Perhaps on the Southwest Chief too.

So overall, that would be an order of roughly: 25 Coach Baggages, 35 Coaches, 50 Sleepers, 20 Lounges, 25 Diners, 25 Transition Sleepers, and 20 Parlours. Wouldn't order any new diner lounges- Just use the ones free'd up by the new Diners on the Pioneer.
 
Well, lets see. First, I feel it is important to keep in mind the need for financial efficiency onboard Amtrak trains.
Augmentation:

Sleeper augmentation will be done other ways.

1) 25 standard Superliner coaches for the same reason.

Spares:

1) 6 Sleepers (LA, EMY, SEA, CHI, NOL, WAS)

2) 6 coaches

3) 6 diners

Reasons: You don't need a spare lounge- the diner can do that. You also don't need spare trans-dorms because in the pinch, you can use a standard sleeper.

Additional routes:

I am going to assume some additional routes that Amtrak has aluded to. 2 train sets would be required to comfortably turn the CONO into the City of Miami. The Desert Wind and Pioneer make sense. A North Coast Hiawatha is less sensible, but I suspect certain states would be willing to partner with the feds to make it a reality. I also say that DW and Pioneer should combine into the Desert Pioneer at Denver and produce a second frequency between Denver and Chicago. I also think that trans-dorms are a silly idea. A Baggage/Dorm/Sleeper with the rear part of the crew lounge being for baggage on these short trains makes more sense.

 

So you'd have the following consist for the Desert Pioneer: P42 (P), P42(DW), Bag/Dorm/Sleeper (DW), sleeper (DW), CCC(DW), coach (DW), Coach (DW), Coach (P), Coach (P), CCC (P), Sleeper (P), Bag/Dorm/Sleeper (P).

 

CONO: P42, P42, Bag/Dorm/Sleeper, Sleeper, Diner, Sightseer, Coach, Coach, Coach.

 

NCH: P42, P42, Bag, Trans/dorm (from other trains), sleeper, sleeper, diner, SSL, coach, coach, coach.

 

Now, the CCCs are already there, so diners would be ordered to displace the CCCs from the TE and CONO. You'd need 6 Desert Pioneer sets, 3 COM sets, and 6 NCH sets, and a spare sightseer

1) 15 Bag/dorm/sleeper

2) 27 sleeper

3) 52 coach

4) 21 diners

5) 9 Sightseer

Additional car types.

Several routes running superliners justify these two car types. The first car is an all-bedroom first-class lounge car. It would run on the SWC, CZ, GSL (Nee TE), EB, and CL. The upper level would be all bedrooms and the lower level would be a comfortable bar/lounge set up for first class passengers. 35 cars would be required to meet the need, I think.

The second one is a sort of couchette car, if you will. It is a Superliner sleeper, but the upstairs bathroom, and the luggage rack (will be moved over to displace a pair of bathrooms) become roomettes, as do the bedrooms. The result is 28 roomettes in the car. The H-room becomes 2 bathrooms (so the car retains the original number of bathrooms). The rooms can be reserved in total, or can be shared with a stranger. They do not include meals, and come at a lower price. 45 such cars will be needed.

1) 35 Deluxe Sleeper Lounges,

2) 45 Slumbercoaches.

Order total:

I've added a few additional cars to the overall total.

1) 15 Bag/dorm/sleeper

2) 35 Sleepers

3) 30 Diners

4) 10 Sightseers

5) 85 Coaches

5) 35 Deluxe Sleeper Lounges,

7) 45 Slumbercoaches.

Total: 255 cars: 130 sleeper cars, 85 coaches, 40 food service cars.
I like your ideas about the Deluxe Sleeper Lounges & the Slumbercoaches.

I think the Desert Wind/ Pioneer could use at least one more Deluxe Sleepers and a Slumbercoach.

But now I'm wondering if the have other old stock that could be turned into Parlor Cars for Pioneer/Desert Wind, the Empire Builder, & a couple of spares for the Coast Starlight.

Does anyone have any other Routes they think would benefit from Parlor Cars or something similar?

Also, it would be nice if there were designated places to smoke on the train-I know most of you aren't fond of this idea-I'm not sure where would be the best place though.

I know it should NOT be downstairs ANYWHERE-smoke rises.

There are certainly ways to prevent smoke seepage into other areas.
 
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I see that we are talking equipment here but not necessarily improvements. I would like to see the Superliner III's with ice machines in the center vestibules (the ice tray often runs out of ice especially in summer), a slightly wider bathroom, deeper matresses in the bunks, the rooms expanded but only 6" wider so that you can leave the room more easily (when the lower bunk is down), satellite TV, wifi internet access, and and assortment of soft drinks in the rooms with a small refrigerator. Also they need to redo the climate control so that it works with the window curtains closed. On our last trip the curtains completely blocked the heat as the vents are behind the curtains.
 
Sleepers, sleepers, sleepers. That is what they need both Bi and single level fleets. All LD trains frequently sellout the sleepers and potential customers are turned away. These are the prime real estate cars that can get back much more revenue than coaches. EB could use a third Seattle and second Portand sleeper. The SWC and CZ could both probably take a third sleeper and the TE is often forced to use rooms in the Crew Dorm which also indicate a demand. On the single level side the LSL seems to sell out its NYP sleepers often but I don't know about the BOS section.
 
I'll limit this discussion to physical car design.

Considering what these cars are going to cost, there should be as much flexibility in the design as possible. Possibly there could be only two basic car types: the diner and a design that is adaptable for all other uses. Modular design would be used more than ever before, and cars could be changed when they are in the shop for periodic major work with subtraction and addition of modules throughout the car's length. Some ideas:

1. One end of the non-diner car design would be adaptable for replacement of the standard end with a transition section. All Superliner transition cars now are of the sleeper type; use of coaches as transition cars may be useful in some services.

2. Have two doors in each side somewhat like the California car design. One would be standard, the other wide for handicap entrance to the lower level. Both would have stairs to the upper deck for flexibility of use. The handicap passengers have to be located on the lower level near a door because coach aisles are not wide enough to pass a standard wheelchair, and passage between cars would be hazardous because of the swaying of the cars in any case.

3. Cars would have a battery once again, this time a modern lightweight design, not the huge old lead-acid type of years ago. This would allow continuity of hotel power in emergencies and whenever the locomotive is detached from the train as for switching, etc.

4. Among the flexibile car designs would be a combination coach-sleeper, coach-intermediate, or intermediate-sleeper. By intermediate, I mean one of the many ideas proposed that would be intermediate in price between coach and sleeper. Here again, the modular concept would allow modules to be removed and added to individual cars when they are shopped to vary the mix according to the needs of the particular car or train in order to improve the load factor.

5. As another way to get better load factors, Amtrak needs to vary its consists en route and to split and join trains at junction stations. The car design would allow use of the Canadian J-train concept, i.e., tandem locomotive-and-cars units that can be operated as one train.

6. Push-pull capability for back up moves, switching, etc.

These cars will be in use for decades; so adaptability to changing needs is all-important.
 
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Any chance of a bi-level design (either in the hypothetical Superliner 3 or similar stock) with upstairs inter-car access but a small enough loading gauge to fit into the NEC? It would be nice if there was at least the possibility of a single-seat ride from New York and/or Boston to San Francisco, Seattle, and/or Los Angeles.
 
3. Cars would have a battery once again, this time a modern lightweight design, not the huge old lead-acid type of years ago. This would allow continuity of hotel power in emergencies and whenever the locomotive is detached from the train as for switching, etc.
This should be easy to achieve since at present it seems to be a unique American thing not to have enough battery power to keep at least the lights on for a considerable amount of time. The self-generating cars in places like India actually have enough battery capacity to keep not only the lights but even AC going for a considerable amount of time, though at a more sedate rate.
 
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