SEND AMTRAK MESSAGE MAY 17

Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Jun 19, 2003
Messages
1,805
Location
Harrison Michigan
To stay informed go to WWW.UTU.ORG
SEND AMTRAK MESSAGE MAY 17

Let’s collectively, loudly and visibly send a message to Amtrak’s president and board of directors that it is time to replace Amtrak’s chief labor negotiator with someone who understands the importance of employee morale and is more in tune with the objectives of Amtrak’s new president, Alexander Kummant.

Amtrak conductors and their supporters have scheduled a rally for Thursday morning, May 17, at Union Station in Washington, D.C., to deliver this message in person. Kummant’s office looks down on the fountains in front of the station, where the rally will be held beginning at 9 a.m.

Dave Brooks Jr.

Many conductors will be wearing their uniforms. UTU International President Paul Thompson and General Chairman (GO-769) Al Suozzo will be among the speakers, and following the Amtrak-support rally, participants are encouraged to join the Enough is Enough rally scheduled for 10 a.m. on the Mall.

“Mr. Kummant said he wanted to complete all outstanding contract negotiations by October,” said Amtrak-rally organizer Dave Brooks, who also is vice local chairman of Amtrak General Committee, GO-769. “Let us use this rally to send an unmistakable message to Mr. Kummant and his board that the way to conclude a contract with the UTU is for Joe Bress to stop insisting on the elimination of the assistant conductor, who in the post-9/11 environment is essential to passenger safety,” Brooks said.

Amtrak and the UTU have not concluded a contract since 1999, and negotiations on a new agreement have dragged on since August 2000. At each UTU attempt to bargain in good faith, Bress has insisted on elimination of the assistant conductor before further progress can be made.

“Bress shamefully wants to fire 400 assistant conductors,” said UTU International Vice President Tony Iannone. “If he were successful, the real losers will be the passengers – and the loss could be their lives. It is the conductor and assistant conductors who are trained to provide first aid, reduce hazards and lead passengers to safety,” Iannone said. “Repeatedly, the National Transportation Safety Board has singled out the efforts of Amtrak conductors and assistant conductors in saving lives and reducing injuries following Amtrak accidents.”

Iannone said, “Conductors must have detailed knowledge of engineering standards for equipment and track, speed restrictions and FRA safety regulations, plus an intimate knowledge of the landscape and communities through which their trains travel to identify hazards and quickly take proper action.

“Amtrak is well aware that terrorists have been targeting passenger trains worldwide,” Iannone said. “With this threat of terrorism hanging over Amtrak and its passengers, the conductor and assistant conductor are the first line of defense, checking tickets and passenger identification, being alert for suspicious activity, observing passenger actions and demeanor, and knowing how to handle instances of unattended luggage and packages. The safety of the passengers is the top priority of the conductor and assistant conductor and Joe Bress should not be trading passenger lives for bragging rights that he fired 400 assistant conductors.”

GO-769 will be the host committee for the Amtrak rally, but other UTU general committees will be participating.

“This is the time and place for UTU members to demonstrate their support for brothers and sisters struggling to obtain an equitable contract with Amtrak and keep passengers safe,” Brooks said.

Again, the Amtrak rally will take place in front of Union Station, at the fountains, beginning promptly at 9 a.m., Thursday, May 17, and will preceded the Enough is Enough rally organized by the International Association of Machinists that will begin on the Mall at 10 a.m.

Senators Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.), Joseph Biden (D-Del.) and John Kerry (D-Mass.) – all staunch Amtrak supporters and friends of the UTU -- are expected to be speakers at the main rally.
 
To stay informed go to WWW.UTU.ORG
SEND AMTRAK MESSAGE MAY 17

Let’s collectively, loudly and visibly send a message to Amtrak’s president and board of directors that it is time to replace Amtrak’s chief labor negotiator with someone who understands the importance of employee morale and is more in tune with the objectives of Amtrak’s new president, Alexander Kummant.

Amtrak conductors and their supporters have scheduled a rally for Thursday morning, May 17, at Union Station in Washington, D.C., to deliver this message in person. Kummant’s office looks down on the fountains in front of the station, where the rally will be held beginning at 9 a.m.

Dave Brooks Jr.

Many conductors will be wearing their uniforms. UTU International President Paul Thompson and General Chairman (GO-769) Al Suozzo will be among the speakers, and following the Amtrak-support rally, participants are encouraged to join the Enough is Enough rally scheduled for 10 a.m. on the Mall.

“Mr. Kummant said he wanted to complete all outstanding contract negotiations by October,” said Amtrak-rally organizer Dave Brooks, who also is vice local chairman of Amtrak General Committee, GO-769. “Let us use this rally to send an unmistakable message to Mr. Kummant and his board that the way to conclude a contract with the UTU is for Joe Bress to stop insisting on the elimination of the assistant conductor, who in the post-9/11 environment is essential to passenger safety,” Brooks said.

Amtrak and the UTU have not concluded a contract since 1999, and negotiations on a new agreement have dragged on since August 2000. At each UTU attempt to bargain in good faith, Bress has insisted on elimination of the assistant conductor before further progress can be made.

“Bress shamefully wants to fire 400 assistant conductors,” said UTU International Vice President Tony Iannone. “If he were successful, the real losers will be the passengers – and the loss could be their lives. It is the conductor and assistant conductors who are trained to provide first aid, reduce hazards and lead passengers to safety,” Iannone said. “Repeatedly, the National Transportation Safety Board has singled out the efforts of Amtrak conductors and assistant conductors in saving lives and reducing injuries following Amtrak accidents.”

Iannone said, “Conductors must have detailed knowledge of engineering standards for equipment and track, speed restrictions and FRA safety regulations, plus an intimate knowledge of the landscape and communities through which their trains travel to identify hazards and quickly take proper action.

“Amtrak is well aware that terrorists have been targeting passenger trains worldwide,” Iannone said. “With this threat of terrorism hanging over Amtrak and its passengers, the conductor and assistant conductor are the first line of defense, checking tickets and passenger identification, being alert for suspicious activity, observing passenger actions and demeanor, and knowing how to handle instances of unattended luggage and packages. The safety of the passengers is the top priority of the conductor and assistant conductor and Joe Bress should not be trading passenger lives for bragging rights that he fired 400 assistant conductors.”

GO-769 will be the host committee for the Amtrak rally, but other UTU general committees will be participating.

“This is the time and place for UTU members to demonstrate their support for brothers and sisters struggling to obtain an equitable contract with Amtrak and keep passengers safe,” Brooks said.

Again, the Amtrak rally will take place in front of Union Station, at the fountains, beginning promptly at 9 a.m., Thursday, May 17, and will preceded the Enough is Enough rally organized by the International Association of Machinists that will begin on the Mall at 10 a.m.

Senators Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.), Joseph Biden (D-Del.) and John Kerry (D-Mass.) – all staunch Amtrak supporters and friends of the UTU -- are expected to be speakers at the main rally.
Having been a union member for over 40 years I think this is putting the horse before the cart. Kummart just took over and promised an October, at the latest, settlement date. I don't think camping outside his office window is the way I would want my employees trying to coerce me into doing something BEFORE the deadline that I publicly stated....as far as terrorist go we all have to deal with the possibility of their striking at any time. Those poor children in the day care center in the Federal Building in Oklahoma City are a prime example; they were totally oblivious to even what a terrorist is.
 
To stay informed go to WWW.UTU.ORG
SEND AMTRAK MESSAGE MAY 17

Let’s collectively, loudly and visibly send a message to Amtrak’s president and board of directors that it is time to replace Amtrak’s chief labor negotiator with someone who understands the importance of employee morale and is more in tune with the objectives of Amtrak’s new president, Alexander Kummant.

Amtrak conductors and their supporters have scheduled a rally for Thursday morning, May 17, at Union Station in Washington, D.C., to deliver this message in person. Kummant’s office looks down on the fountains in front of the station, where the rally will be held beginning at 9 a.m.

Dave Brooks Jr.

Many conductors will be wearing their uniforms. UTU International President Paul Thompson and General Chairman (GO-769) Al Suozzo will be among the speakers, and following the Amtrak-support rally, participants are encouraged to join the Enough is Enough rally scheduled for 10 a.m. on the Mall.

“Mr. Kummant said he wanted to complete all outstanding contract negotiations by October,” said Amtrak-rally organizer Dave Brooks, who also is vice local chairman of Amtrak General Committee, GO-769. “Let us use this rally to send an unmistakable message to Mr. Kummant and his board that the way to conclude a contract with the UTU is for Joe Bress to stop insisting on the elimination of the assistant conductor, who in the post-9/11 environment is essential to passenger safety,” Brooks said.

Amtrak and the UTU have not concluded a contract since 1999, and negotiations on a new agreement have dragged on since August 2000. At each UTU attempt to bargain in good faith, Bress has insisted on elimination of the assistant conductor before further progress can be made.

“Bress shamefully wants to fire 400 assistant conductors,” said UTU International Vice President Tony Iannone. “If he were successful, the real losers will be the passengers – and the loss could be their lives. It is the conductor and assistant conductors who are trained to provide first aid, reduce hazards and lead passengers to safety,” Iannone said. “Repeatedly, the National Transportation Safety Board has singled out the efforts of Amtrak conductors and assistant conductors in saving lives and reducing injuries following Amtrak accidents.”

Iannone said, “Conductors must have detailed knowledge of engineering standards for equipment and track, speed restrictions and FRA safety regulations, plus an intimate knowledge of the landscape and communities through which their trains travel to identify hazards and quickly take proper action.

“Amtrak is well aware that terrorists have been targeting passenger trains worldwide,” Iannone said. “With this threat of terrorism hanging over Amtrak and its passengers, the conductor and assistant conductor are the first line of defense, checking tickets and passenger identification, being alert for suspicious activity, observing passenger actions and demeanor, and knowing how to handle instances of unattended luggage and packages. The safety of the passengers is the top priority of the conductor and assistant conductor and Joe Bress should not be trading passenger lives for bragging rights that he fired 400 assistant conductors.”

GO-769 will be the host committee for the Amtrak rally, but other UTU general committees will be participating.

“This is the time and place for UTU members to demonstrate their support for brothers and sisters struggling to obtain an equitable contract with Amtrak and keep passengers safe,” Brooks said.

Again, the Amtrak rally will take place in front of Union Station, at the fountains, beginning promptly at 9 a.m., Thursday, May 17, and will preceded the Enough is Enough rally organized by the International Association of Machinists that will begin on the Mall at 10 a.m.

Senators Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.), Joseph Biden (D-Del.) and John Kerry (D-Mass.) – all staunch Amtrak supporters and friends of the UTU -- are expected to be speakers at the main rally.
Having been a union member for over 40 years I think this is putting the horse before the cart. Kummart just took over and promised an October, at the latest, settlement date. I don't think camping outside his office window is the way I would want my employees trying to coerce me into doing something BEFORE the deadline that I publicly stated....as far as terrorist go we all have to deal with the possibility of their striking at any time. Those poor children in the day care center in the Federal Building in Oklahoma City are a prime example; they were totally oblivious to even what a terrorist is.
I agree with the bad timing of this rally. If the President has said he will have the issue solved by October, then at the end of October if it is not solved, then you have a rally. Also, having been involved in many management/union negotiations, it is not the individual negotiator that is at fault - on either side - but the position of the company and the union that is being presented. I am quite sure the amtrak management negotiator is not making this stuff up on his own. If the company wants to eleminate assistant conductors, then that is the position they have taken. It is not the position of the negotiator - he is simply the messenger.
 
as simply a passenger, can someone enlighten me on what the elimination of the assistant conductor would mean to me? i rarely see them once my ticket is taken. will the lights start flickering? will the train derail?

since we're all interested in seeing amtrak survive, if this cut can be made without affecting the *customer* experience, then do it. call me callous.
 
as simply a passenger, can someone enlighten me on what the elimination of the assistant conductor would mean to me? i rarely see them once my ticket is taken. will the lights start flickering? will the train derail?
since we're all interested in seeing amtrak survive, if this cut can be made without affecting the *customer* experience, then do it. call me callous.
Quickly shooting from the hip as it were, it would mean less doors get opened on long distance trains. It would make things harder for the conductor to collect all the tickets in a timely matter, which could well lead to lost revenue when people ask for refunds on tickets not collected, even though they took the ride. It would mean in an emergency that there is one less trained crew member to deal with things. For example right now, often one of the two conductors will make announcements telling people what's going on, while the other deals with the police at the scene of an accident.

It could make it harder to deal with a drunk, roudy passenger, as now there would be only one crew member around to help restrain such a person.

I'm sure that others will think of additional reasons, and more may even occur to me as I think about things.
 
Say it with me guys- almost EIGHT YEARS without a contract. That is simply pathetic and disgusting. That means no raises, (besides the few cents of cola raises and I do mean literally- cents), while gas prices continue to soar along with most everything else, the folks charged with the responsibility of keeping rail travelers safe have gotten nothing! We love to discuss service issues at Amtrak but often overlook a significant point here. How would any of you feel if you didn't get a raise for eight years?

That being said, I agree that the timing of the rally is bad, at least give the man a chance to miss his own deadline. A significant issue at Amtrak is labor relations. The labor folks won't strike because they know the passengers on the NEC would scream bloody murder and go back to flying, (this alone would be enough to force an end to a strike or put Amtrak out of business). The end result would likely be worse than if they did not strike at all, management knows this so they can hold out as long as they like. Its not fair at all but it is the reality of Amtrak.

I would tend to say that the Assistant Conductors are neccessary; not only for safety reasons in an accident but that is where employees spend 'apprentice' time learing how to be Conductors. I think its always best to have a second set of eyes on board. Should a passenger become ill one employee could administer 1st aid while the other makes the neccessary calls. Removal of the Assistant Conductor is a foolish, bean counting move. After all, how many flight attendants are on a plane? I do believe that number is mandated by the FAA.

Amtrak's unions could give a little too. I spoke to an LSA on the Hia and he told me that LSAs are represented by THREE separate unions, (depending on where they hired out). Three unions for the same job- that is unbelieveable not to mention a nightmare in trying to negotiate for a contract. Amtrak employees must stop thinking like their freight brothers and sisters. This is a significant point. While Freighters rarely strike nowadays, (see CN north of the boarder while the US guys had to keep working), the implied threat is still there. Amtrak employes really do not have this 'luxury'. When Amtrak was established it inherrited all of the good and BAD of organized labor from its freight predecessors. Amtrak employees should ban together under one, yes one union, 'Amtrak United' or something like that. I believe it is the only way to establish a good and even relationship with the company. Of course, if management treated their employees fairly, with respect and actually took care of their employees, (I mean everywhere, not just Amtrak), then Unions would not be neccessary. This is a greater problem at large in the US. We have plenty of managers, accountants and lawyers but very few real leaders who know that taking care of people is much more than just providing a pay check.
 
Say it with me guys- almost EIGHT YEARS without a contract. That is simply pathetic and disgusting. That means no raises, (besides the few cents of cola raises and I do mean literally- cents), while gas prices continue to soar along with most everything else, the folks charged with the responsibility of keeping rail travelers safe have gotten nothing! We love to discuss service issues at Amtrak but often overlook a significant point here. How would any of you feel if you didn't get a raise for eight years?
We went through this discusion a while back, but a COLA raise is still a raise. Like it or not, they still have seen an increase in their gross salaries, and most likely in their net take home pay. Yes it may not be a lot, especially if one breaks it down to the hourly level, but it is still a raise. If a conductor is currently making 40,000 a year, a 3% COLA raise is an increase of $1,200 a year. I know workers who would be happy, even ecstatic for an increase of that size. There are many people out there who don't get a 2% increase each year.

And as has also been mentioned in the past, they may not like what they do get in a new contract. Almost all RR workers for commuter ops have seen huge increases in their contributions for medical insurance, whereas Amtrak workers haven't seen any increases, since there is no new contract to change the current rules.

Now that said, I'm not suggesting that Amtrak's conductors aren't deserving of a contract and a more "normal" raise, although I'm not sure that it would be all that much higher than what they have gotten. Most places seem to be getting between 3% to 5% raises, so if Amtrak workers have gotten even the low end at a 2% COLA increase, then they aren't that far off from the 3% mark.

In fact all Amtrak workers are deserving of a contract, not just the conductors.

I would tend to say that the Assistant Conductors are neccessary; not only for safety reasons in an accident but that is where employees spend 'apprentice' time learing how to be Conductors. I think its always best to have a second set of eyes on board. Should a passenger become ill one employee could administer 1st aid while the other makes the neccessary calls. Removal of the Assistant Conductor is a foolish, bean counting move. After all, how many flight attendants are on a plane? I do believe that number is mandated by the FAA.
Well one thing that is unclear here is just what assn't conductors is Amtrak trying to eliminate here. While I'm not sure that any should be cut, it is worth noting that 400 A/C's is hardly cutting out the A/C position entirely. Amtrak couldn't operate all of its current trains with only 400 A/C's on staff. I'd like to know just what is happening here, and how does this proposed cut affect things.

While Freighters rarely strike nowadays, (see CN north of the boarder while the US guys had to keep working), the implied threat is still there.
This is definately not a good example to use. CN workers south of the border did not strike, because the strike was not sanctioned by the union. And the union didn't sanction the strike, simple because the leaders north of the border did not follow union procedures. They failed to file the proper paperwork with the union headquarters and then cried that the union wouldn't support them. The union president actually posted a letter on the union website to the leader in Canada, explaining why he wasn't sanctioning the strike, and explained to him what he would need to do to get the strike authorized.

When the leader's north of the border failed to comply with their own union rules, the union joined CN in filing paperwork with the Canadian Government to get them to end the strike with a Federal mandate.
 
Say it with me guys- almost EIGHT YEARS without a contract. That is simply pathetic and disgusting. That means no raises, (besides the few cents of cola raises and I do mean literally- cents), while gas prices continue to soar along with most everything else, the folks charged with the responsibility of keeping rail travelers safe have gotten nothing! We love to discuss service issues at Amtrak but often overlook a significant point here. How would any of you feel if you didn't get a raise for eight years?
We went through this discusion a while back, but a COLA raise is still a raise. Like it or not, they still have seen an increase in their gross salaries, and most likely in their net take home pay. Yes it may not be a lot, especially if one breaks it down to the hourly level, but it is still a raise. If a conductor is currently making 40,000 a year, a 3% COLA raise is an increase of $1,200 a year. I know workers who would be happy, even ecstatic for an increase of that size. There are many people out there who don't get a 2% increase each year.

And as has also been mentioned in the past, they may not like what they do get in a new contract. Almost all RR workers for commuter ops have seen huge increases in their contributions for medical insurance, whereas Amtrak workers haven't seen any increases, since there is no new contract to change the current rules.

Now that said, I'm not suggesting that Amtrak's conductors aren't deserving of a contract and a more "normal" raise, although I'm not sure that it would be all that much higher than what they have gotten. Most places seem to be getting between 3% to 5% raises, so if Amtrak workers have gotten even the low end at a 2% COLA increase, then they aren't that far off from the 3% mark.

In fact all Amtrak workers are deserving of a contract, not just the conductors.

I would tend to say that the Assistant Conductors are neccessary; not only for safety reasons in an accident but that is where employees spend 'apprentice' time learing how to be Conductors. I think its always best to have a second set of eyes on board. Should a passenger become ill one employee could administer 1st aid while the other makes the neccessary calls. Removal of the Assistant Conductor is a foolish, bean counting move. After all, how many flight attendants are on a plane? I do believe that number is mandated by the FAA.
Well one thing that is unclear here is just what assn't conductors is Amtrak trying to eliminate here. While I'm not sure that any should be cut, it is worth noting that 400 A/C's is hardly cutting out the A/C position entirely. Amtrak couldn't operate all of its current trains with only 400 A/C's on staff. I'd like to know just what is happening here, and how does this proposed cut affect things.

While Freighters rarely strike nowadays, (see CN north of the boarder while the US guys had to keep working), the implied threat is still there.
This is definately not a good example to use. CN workers south of the border did not strike, because the strike was not sanctioned by the union. And the union didn't sanction the strike, simple because the leaders north of the border did not follow union procedures. They failed to file the proper paperwork with the union headquarters and then cried that the union wouldn't support them. The union president actually posted a letter on the union website to the leader in Canada, explaining why he wasn't sanctioning the strike, and explained to him what he would need to do to get the strike authorized.

When the leader's north of the border failed to comply with their own union rules, the union joined CN in filing paperwork with the Canadian Government to get them to end the strike with a Federal mandate.
I think it also needs to be clear that Amtak management has not had raises - other than the COLA - in the past years. I agree with Alan that COLA may not be much, but it is an increase and I don't know anyone who would give it back.

On some trains, it is the AC who also works the baggage car with the station staff to expidite the off loading and loading of bags, express, etc.

I would also like to more clearly understand the total number of ACs within the system.
 
Say it with me guys- almost EIGHT YEARS without a contract. That is simply pathetic and disgusting. That means no raises, (besides the few cents of cola raises and I do mean literally- cents), while gas prices continue to soar along with most everything else, the folks charged with the responsibility of keeping rail travelers safe have gotten nothing! We love to discuss service issues at Amtrak but often overlook a significant point here. How would any of you feel if you didn't get a raise for eight years?
We went through this discusion a while back, but a COLA raise is still a raise. Like it or not, they still have seen an increase in their gross salaries, and most likely in their net take home pay. Yes it may not be a lot, especially if one breaks it down to the hourly level, but it is still a raise. If a conductor is currently making 40,000 a year, a 3% COLA raise is an increase of $1,200 a year. I know workers who would be happy, even ecstatic for an increase of that size. There are many people out there who don't get a 2% increase each year.

And as has also been mentioned in the past, they may not like what they do get in a new contract. Almost all RR workers for commuter ops have seen huge increases in their contributions for medical insurance, whereas Amtrak workers haven't seen any increases, since there is no new contract to change the current rules.

Now that said, I'm not suggesting that Amtrak's conductors aren't deserving of a contract and a more "normal" raise, although I'm not sure that it would be all that much higher than what they have gotten. Most places seem to be getting between 3% to 5% raises, so if Amtrak workers have gotten even the low end at a 2% COLA increase, then they aren't that far off from the 3% mark.

In fact all Amtrak workers are deserving of a contract, not just the conductors.

I would tend to say that the Assistant Conductors are neccessary; not only for safety reasons in an accident but that is where employees spend 'apprentice' time learing how to be Conductors. I think its always best to have a second set of eyes on board. Should a passenger become ill one employee could administer 1st aid while the other makes the neccessary calls. Removal of the Assistant Conductor is a foolish, bean counting move. After all, how many flight attendants are on a plane? I do believe that number is mandated by the FAA.
Well one thing that is unclear here is just what assn't conductors is Amtrak trying to eliminate here. While I'm not sure that any should be cut, it is worth noting that 400 A/C's is hardly cutting out the A/C position entirely. Amtrak couldn't operate all of its current trains with only 400 A/C's on staff. I'd like to know just what is happening here, and how does this proposed cut affect things.

While Freighters rarely strike nowadays, (see CN north of the boarder while the US guys had to keep working), the implied threat is still there.
This is definately not a good example to use. CN workers south of the border did not strike, because the strike was not sanctioned by the union. And the union didn't sanction the strike, simple because the leaders north of the border did not follow union procedures. They failed to file the proper paperwork with the union headquarters and then cried that the union wouldn't support them. The union president actually posted a letter on the union website to the leader in Canada, explaining why he wasn't sanctioning the strike, and explained to him what he would need to do to get the strike authorized.

When the leader's north of the border failed to comply with their own union rules, the union joined CN in filing paperwork with the Canadian Government to get them to end the strike with a Federal mandate.
I think it also needs to be clear that Amtak management has not had raises - other than the COLA - in the past years. I agree with Alan that COLA may not be much, but it is an increase and I don't know anyone who would give it back.

On some trains, it is the AC who also works the baggage car with the station staff to expidite the off loading and loading of bags, express, etc.

I would also like to more clearly understand the total number of ACs within the system.
Maybe Alan or Anthony can expound on this. Didn't VIA Rail Canada put two engineers in the cab in lieu of the conductor? I seem to remember seeing something on the BLE website some years ago but never knew if it was implemented. This would be an even worst scenario in terms of manpower; there would have to be better training of the on board service crew if indeed this change did take place.
 
Maybe Alan or Anthony can expound on this. Didn't VIA Rail Canada put two engineers in the cab in lieu of the conductor? I seem to remember seeing something on the BLE website some years ago but never knew if it was implemented. This would be an even worst scenario in terms of manpower; there would have to be better training of the on board service crew if indeed this change did take place.
I'm not sure about the two in the cab thing, but I do recall there being a move to have on board crew members collect the tickets, instead of the conductors. And the conductor position was esentially eliminated IIRC. But again, I'm not positive about that or the two in the cab.
 
Maybe Alan or Anthony can expound on this. Didn't VIA Rail Canada put two engineers in the cab in lieu of the conductor? I seem to remember seeing something on the BLE website some years ago but never knew if it was implemented. This would be an even worst scenario in terms of manpower; there would have to be better training of the on board service crew if indeed this change did take place.
I'm not sure about the two in the cab thing, but I do recall there being a move to have on board crew members collect the tickets, instead of the conductors. And the conductor position was esentially eliminated IIRC. But again, I'm not positive about that or the two in the cab.
Alan,

Was the conductor's job actually eliminated or put on the shoulders of the second man in the engine?
 
Maybe Alan or Anthony can expound on this. Didn't VIA Rail Canada put two engineers in the cab in lieu of the conductor? I seem to remember seeing something on the BLE website some years ago but never knew if it was implemented. This would be an even worst scenario in terms of manpower; there would have to be better training of the on board service crew if indeed this change did take place.
I'm not sure about the two in the cab thing, but I do recall there being a move to have on board crew members collect the tickets, instead of the conductors. And the conductor position was esentially eliminated IIRC. But again, I'm not positive about that or the two in the cab.
Alan,

Was the conductor's job actually eliminated or put on the shoulders of the second man in the engine?
They were elminated, now the Service Manager Collects, them. The 2 Crew Members in the Cab do the Baggage Car loading and unloading.
 
Say it with me guys- almost EIGHT YEARS without a contract. That is simply pathetic and disgusting. That means no raises, (besides the few cents of cola raises and I do mean literally- cents), while gas prices continue to soar along with most everything else, the folks charged with the responsibility of keeping rail travelers safe have gotten nothing! We love to discuss service issues at Amtrak but often overlook a significant point here. How would any of you feel if you didn't get a raise for eight years?
We went through this discusion a while back, but a COLA raise is still a raise. Like it or not, they still have seen an increase in their gross salaries, and most likely in their net take home pay. Yes it may not be a lot, especially if one breaks it down to the hourly level, but it is still a raise. If a conductor is currently making 40,000 a year, a 3% COLA raise is an increase of $1,200 a year. I know workers who would be happy, even ecstatic for an increase of that size. There are many people out there who don't get a 2% increase each year.

And as has also been mentioned in the past, they may not like what they do get in a new contract. Almost all RR workers for commuter ops have seen huge increases in their contributions for medical insurance, whereas Amtrak workers haven't seen any increases, since there is no new contract to change the current rules.

Now that said, I'm not suggesting that Amtrak's conductors aren't deserving of a contract and a more "normal" raise, although I'm not sure that it would be all that much higher than what they have gotten. Most places seem to be getting between 3% to 5% raises, so if Amtrak workers have gotten even the low end at a 2% COLA increase, then they aren't that far off from the 3% mark.

In fact all Amtrak workers are deserving of a contract, not just the conductors.
The fact is that the COLAS for Amtrak employees is some how figured by a formula (Harris Formula) that does NOT even come close to the actual raise in the cost of living. It have varied and at times was 1 cent/ hour. over the 8+year period that Amtrak's good faith bargaining has gone on it averages less than ONE HALF of ONE % A YEAR. so the example of a $1,200.00 annual raise is not true. THE TRUE RAISE IS $200.00 A YEAR. What is less than $4.00 a week going to buy you now? Maybe one gallon of gas next week, maybe not.

Many members of Amtrak's upper management have made promises to settle agreements by deadlines that are long DEAD.

Amtrak wants to reduce pay, reduce workforce numbers, and impose draconian work rules on every one not just the UTU but all Amtrak union represented employees. At the same time it is making more management positions and rewarding these incompetents with a true cost of living and bonuses and telling the union workers that management has not been geting pay raises.

The moral corruption of this is felt by all Amtrak workers.

I think the public should know about this now, and be reminded everyday not just May 17th.

I also believe that trying to form one union is just a thinly veiled attempt by the company to make all of us a composite employee and elinimate distinctions of craft that will lead to a drastic reduction in safety of employees and passengers.

Do you want a chef repairing the air brakes?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The fact is that the COLAS for Amtrak employees is some how figured by a formula (Harris Formula) that does NOT even come close to the actual raise in the cost of living. It have varied and at times was 1 cent/ hour. over the 8+year period that Amtrak's good faith bargaining has gone on it averages less than ONE HALF of ONE % A YEAR. so the example of a $1,200.00 annual raise is not true. THE TRUE RAISE IS $200.00 A YEAR. What is less than $4.00 a week going to buy you now? Maybe one gallon of gas next week, maybe not.
Doesn't change the fact that they've still gotten a raise. There are people in this country who would be happy for any raise. I personally know a few who haven't received an increase at all for three years. :(

Again, I'm not suggesting that it is fair to them or to the Amtrak workers, but even $200 more a year is better than absolutely nothing.

Amtrak wants to reduce pay, reduce workforce numbers, and impose draconian work rules on every one not just the UTU but all Amtrak union represented employees.
This is not unique at Amtrak, it is happening in all walks of life. Visit a small chain store these days and the odds are that your sale is being rung up by a manager, not a cashier, since the store doesn't have to pay them OT.

And again, I'm not suggesting that this is fair to Amtrak workers, simply that it is becoming a way of life. And in Amtrak's case, you can also thank Congress and the White House for the pressure to impliment some of what you describe.

At the same time it is making more management positions and rewarding these incompetents with a true cost of living and bonuses and telling the union workers that management has not been geting pay raises.
The first part of that statement is definately not true, as a simple look at the reports handed to Congress shows a dramatic reduction. And those reports are certified by an independent accountant, as well as by Congressional investigators. Since fiscal 2001 thru fiscal 2006 518 management positions have been eliminated.

And while I can't speak for management employees at all levels, I do know of at least one who has not gotten a raise in the same amount of time. And I have no reason to disbelieve him, since he has no reason to lie to me. Now I do understand that some managers get bonuses based upon how their department operates, so they are technically getting extra money every year.

I also believe that trying to form one union is just a thinly veiled attempt by the company to make all of us a composite employee and elinimate distinctions of craft that will lead to a drastic reduction in safety of employees and passengers.
Do you want a chef repairing the air brakes?
No, I certainly don't. But I'm also not sure that's what Amtrak has in mind. I know that one thing that Amtrak has been trying to get for years from the on board crews is some flexibility. It's far more insane that a sleeping car attendant can't be called into to work in the dining car, than your example above is. And in fact the AutoTrain has already proved that this can work. All employees there are under a different contract that permits this. And guess what, the Auto Train is one train that actually comes close to covering its expenses. Yes, there are other factors that help it do that, but make no mistake that flexability to move workers around a bit does help.

We need to see all the details for what Amtrak wants, not just what one side claims, to make a fair assesment of things. :)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Ask a line employee of US Airways, United, American or Delta if they would like to have the same pay and benefits today that they had six years ago. All of these folks and many others in the transportation industry have seen significant cuts in pay and benefits and have seen their pensions disappear. In that context, holding status quo at Amtrak does not look so bad.

And, just to be clear, Amtrak workers have gone eight years without a new contract, not eight years without a contract. The old contract and the work rules and worker protections it contains remains valid and in force until either a new contract is signed or either side declares the contract null and void. So Amtrak workers have the same benefits and the same work rules and the same wages, with cost of living adjustments, as they had eight years ago. Compared to 30% pay cuts and bare-bones benefits with large co-pays, is that really a bad deal?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Say it with me guys- almost EIGHT YEARS without a contract. That is simply pathetic and disgusting. That means no raises, (besides the few cents of cola raises and I do mean literally- cents), while gas prices continue to soar along with most everything else, the folks charged with the responsibility of keeping rail travelers safe have gotten nothing! We love to discuss service issues at Amtrak but often overlook a significant point here. How would any of you feel if you didn't get a raise for eight years?
We went through this discusion a while back, but a COLA raise is still a raise. Like it or not, they still have seen an increase in their gross salaries, and most likely in their net take home pay. Yes it may not be a lot, especially if one breaks it down to the hourly level, but it is still a raise. If a conductor is currently making 40,000 a year, a 3% COLA raise is an increase of $1,200 a year. I know workers who would be happy, even ecstatic for an increase of that size. There are many people out there who don't get a 2% increase each year.

And as has also been mentioned in the past, they may not like what they do get in a new contract. Almost all RR workers for commuter ops have seen huge increases in their contributions for medical insurance, whereas Amtrak workers haven't seen any increases, since there is no new contract to change the current rules.

Now that said, I'm not suggesting that Amtrak's conductors aren't deserving of a contract and a more "normal" raise, although I'm not sure that it would be all that much higher than what they have gotten. Most places seem to be getting between 3% to 5% raises, so if Amtrak workers have gotten even the low end at a 2% COLA increase, then they aren't that far off from the 3% mark.

In fact all Amtrak workers are deserving of a contract, not just the conductors.

I would tend to say that the Assistant Conductors are neccessary; not only for safety reasons in an accident but that is where employees spend 'apprentice' time learing how to be Conductors. I think its always best to have a second set of eyes on board. Should a passenger become ill one employee could administer 1st aid while the other makes the neccessary calls. Removal of the Assistant Conductor is a foolish, bean counting move. After all, how many flight attendants are on a plane? I do believe that number is mandated by the FAA.
Well one thing that is unclear here is just what assn't conductors is Amtrak trying to eliminate here. While I'm not sure that any should be cut, it is worth noting that 400 A/C's is hardly cutting out the A/C position entirely. Amtrak couldn't operate all of its current trains with only 400 A/C's on staff. I'd like to know just what is happening here, and how does this proposed cut affect things.

While Freighters rarely strike nowadays, (see CN north of the boarder while the US guys had to keep working), the implied threat is still there.
This is definately not a good example to use. CN workers south of the border did not strike, because the strike was not sanctioned by the union. And the union didn't sanction the strike, simple because the leaders north of the border did not follow union procedures. They failed to file the proper paperwork with the union headquarters and then cried that the union wouldn't support them. The union president actually posted a letter on the union website to the leader in Canada, explaining why he wasn't sanctioning the strike, and explained to him what he would need to do to get the strike authorized.

When the leader's north of the border failed to comply with their own union rules, the union joined CN in filing paperwork with the Canadian Government to get them to end the strike with a Federal mandate.

I do not agree at all that a raise is a raise no matter how small and working with the same contract in place is a totally bogus statement to make! Amtrak will NEVER make money, (so they cannot be measured against the airlines that do make money when one excludes the all the support that system gets), yet the employees are still required to give back in the form of no new contracts. Amtrak employees will always look to their freight brothers and sisters with envy regarding their paychecks, they are in the SAME unions so why do they get paid so much less? That is where I was going with my previous statement regarding one union at Amtrak. UTU, TCU, etc, can only do so much for Amtrak employees because they lack real bargaining power! The statement of, 'do you want cooks conducting air tests' or whatever is also bogus. That suggests that people are too dumb to learn other jobs. Railroading is NOT the same it was 30, 20 or even 10 years ago. Craft autotonomy is a joke. Road conductors already conduct air-tests in and out of the terminals. UTU already represents engineers and BLET represents trainmen. So much more is being done with so much less! It would be wise of the unions to get with the times. When the clerks go out on a strike how many conductors will go out with them? None! That's right, none! If RR workers were assigned a 'company seniority' date which allowed them to bid on any position for similar rates of pay guess who would be inside issuing tickets? The old heads. The young guys would be traveling, until they could get to sit inside particularly the up and comming generations who arrive with computer knowledge. Amtrak could save a lot of money under this type of system over the long haul.

True, the CN strike was not sanctioned by the union leadership but I would seriously bet that the UTU would not have sanctioned it anyway and the guys south of the border would have continued working regardless because there are different labor laws in Canada. For all intents and purposes US rail workers cannot really strike, (thanks to Reagan- I do believe), if they did so the carriers would simply get an injuction and force the employees back to work or suffer being released/fired. The Fed would back this move and force a 'cooling off period' which would result in an arbitrator becomming involved in negotiations. Traditionally the arbitrators have sided with the carriers so the unions never want that move but this is all elementary.

Amtrak employees are not and cannot get the same benefits that their brothers and sisters are getting on other lines so why should they keep the same representation. Amtrak employees may not be paying for health insurance now but they will be- the rest of the UTU is! When Amtrak is figuring out how much to ask for from Congress each year it has to build in a plan as to how its going to pay for the raises it has been getting away with not paying. The alternative- bye bye ACs. Trust me when it comes down to it, the local UTU guys will eventually take this offer to get the remaining members the raises they have been dying for. This is what you guys are failing to see: less pay= less service, plain and simple. It doesn't matter what YOU might think is right and fair. It MATTERS what the employees running the trains think is right and fair. All the letter writing in the world won't help the service until the EMPLOYEES feel they are being treated fairly. Again what is the industy standard for say Metra? NJT? MBTA? Metro North? Cal Trans? If I'm not mistaking all of these conductors get paid more than their Amtrak equivalents and they are subsidized every bit as much, (perhaps not in the same way but its there). How do you as a Union local leader go back to your people and address that one? "Its ok guys we'll get that raise someday. Keep smiling and making people's trips pleasureable." Nonsense, good luck with selling that one. PAY ME!

Yes, from what I've read, in Canada, the BLET made a power play against the UTU on VIA Rail. After making all kinds of promises to bolster membership they betrayed the UTU guys and worked with VIA to eliminate the position of Conductor and put a BLET 'assistant engineer' up front, (yea thats really needed). Essentially attendants report to the head end that 'all doors are closed' but not a highball as absurd as that sounds. VIA got a cost reduction because the service staff does not get the same pay as the former conductors.
 
I'm sure I'm not alone here, but several years ago our health insurance was paid by my employer. Then later, the employees had to pick up the insurance costs for their spouse and family. Then we lost employer-paid insurance altogether. NOW, my wife and I are paying almost $1,000 per month for health insurance, AND our pay itself is less than it was two years ago. So I have limited sympathy for anybody that has health insurance paid by his or her employer. Consider yourselves exceedingly lucky that the contract you are still operating under includes health insurance. Consider what it would cost you if you had to pay for it yourself, and then add that amount to what you are being paid, because that is just as real a part of your paycheck as the money they are handing you in the paycheck itself. Then consider how that paycheck looks, with (in our case) $1,000 per month added to it, to show what the employer is paying on your behalf to the medical insurer. And before you come back here complaining about what you've got, consider that a lot of the folks on this board have less.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I do not agree at all that a raise is a raise no matter how small and working with the same contract in place is a totally bogus statement to make! Amtrak will NEVER make money, (so they cannot be measured against the airlines that do make money when one excludes the all the support that system gets), yet the employees are still required to give back in the form of no new contracts. Amtrak employees will always look to their freight brothers and sisters with envy regarding their paychecks, they are in the SAME unions so why do they get paid so much less? That is where I was going with my previous statement regarding one union at Amtrak. UTU, TCU, etc, can only do so much for Amtrak employees because they lack real bargaining power!
First, try explaining to someone who has not gotten any increase in salary, how even a COLA of $200 or $400, $1,200 or whatever isn't a raise. I'm not debating whether it is a fair raise, or a deserved raise. But the definition of a raise is an increase in salary, not withstanding the amount. I have a client where 20 front line employees are still making the same gross salary that they were making 3 years ago when they got their last raise, a 2% raise at that and they had gone 4 years prior to that small raise. And in the meantime, their medical insurance has gone up, so they are now taking home less money than they were three years ago. They would be more than happy to see the COLA raises that Amtrak workers have gotten.

Second, airlines don't make money. If you take all the money made and lost over the history of comercial aviation, you'll find that they barely break even. And they wouldn't even do that, but for some help given to them over the years by the Fed.

True, the CN strike was not sanctioned by the union leadership but I would seriously bet that the UTU would not have sanctioned it anyway and the guys south of the border would have continued working regardless because there are different labor laws in Canada. For all intents and purposes US rail workers cannot really strike, (thanks to Reagan- I do believe), if they did so the carriers would simply get an injuction and force the employees back to work or suffer being released/fired. The Fed would back this move and force a 'cooling off period' which would result in an arbitrator becomming involved in negotiations. Traditionally the arbitrators have sided with the carriers so the unions never want that move but this is all elementary.
Whether the strike would have been sanctioned or not isn't the point. Each member of that union in Canada swore to uphold the rules and bylaws of the union, that is the point. They never even gave the President of the union the chance to make a decison one way or the other. If you aren't going to bother to at least try to follow the rules, then there is no point in having a union. Sorry!

If they had filed the measly two pages of paperwork with headquarters, only to have it rejected by headquarters, then I might have more sympathy for their illegal strike. But they didn't bother to do that! And then they turned around and had the nerve to criticize headquarters for not supporting them.

Amtrak employees are not and cannot get the same benefits that their brothers and sisters are getting on other lines so why should they keep the same representation. Amtrak employees may not be paying for health insurance now but they will be- the rest of the UTU is! When Amtrak is figuring out how much to ask for from Congress each year it has to build in a plan as to how its going to pay for the raises it has been getting away with not paying. The alternative- bye bye ACs. Trust me when it comes down to it, the local UTU guys will eventually take this offer to get the remaining members the raises they have been dying for. This is what you guys are failing to see: less pay= less service, plain and simple. It doesn't matter what YOU might think is right and fair. It MATTERS what the employees running the trains think is right and fair. All the letter writing in the world won't help the service until the EMPLOYEES feel they are being treated fairly. Again what is the industy standard for say Metra? NJT? MBTA? Metro North? Cal Trans? If I'm not mistaking all of these conductors get paid more than their Amtrak equivalents and they are subsidized every bit as much, (perhaps not in the same way but its there). How do you as a Union local leader go back to your people and address that one? "Its ok guys we'll get that raise someday. Keep smiling and making people's trips pleasureable." Nonsense, good luck with selling that one. PAY ME!
No arguement from me, I'm more than willing to bet that METRA, NJT, MBTA, and so on, are paying their conductors and A/C's more than Amtrak is.

You're also right that it doesn't matter what I think, it only matters what the employees think. But you must also remember that what the employees think is at least in part based upon what the union wants them to think. Remember the union has motivation here too, no new contract means no increase in money for the union.

Even when the union does do the right thing, that doesn't always mean that the employees end up thinking the right thing or do the right thing. A perfect example is right here in NY, where the MTA workers went on strike two years ago. After the strike ended, a contract was agreed upon by the bulk of the local union leadership. However certain local leaders still weren't happy and they managed to persuade enough workers to vote down that offer. After a year of back and forth, arbitration, and such, the employees that blindly followed those leaders, as well as those who followed the moderate leadership, all ended up with a contract that wasn't quite as lucrative as the one they voted down.

So you'll have to forgive me if I think that far too many employee's think only what their union leaders want them to think, and don't necessarily think about what's really best for them. And I also don't think that union leaders always have the best interests of the membership at hand. I'm not suggesting that all do, but there are plenty of examples of leaders that have stolen from their membership, after convincing the membership to do and/or go along with certain things.

And you may be right that Amtrak is building into the request for funding monies each year to allow for pay raises for the employees. But show me one year recently where Amtrak actually got exactly the amount that they asked for, much less more than they asked for, with the exception of the Warrington years where the budget was pure fiction. If you are correct that Amtrak is budgeting for raises, then blame Congress and the White House for no raises, not Amtrak. They are the ones who didn't supply the full amount of Amtrak's budget request.

Finally, not that it is really relevant, but I'd be willing to bet that most of those commuter agencies are more heavily subsidized than Amtrak.
 
Amtrak will NEVER make money, (so they cannot be measured against the airlines that do make money when one excludes the all the support that system gets)...
...airlines don't make money. If you take all the money made and lost over the history of comercial aviation, you'll find that they barely break even. And they wouldn't even do that, but for some help given to them over the years by the Fed.
Whatever the analysis of the entire history of commercial aviation from Orville and Wilbur to today, the airlines presently operating are for-profit corporations that exist only if they succeed financially. The existence of multiple airlines means that no one airline is all-important and that airlines that adjust to the realities of the market place will thrive and those that do not will die. That kind of market pressure does not exist with Amtrak. The absence of any real fear of failure removes a very powerful incentive for organizational improvement. Amtrak feels that no matter how they operate, they will be here tomorrow and the next days, weeks, months, and years. History and political reality suggest they are correct. United and Southwest Airlines are not so comfortable.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I wonder what the success of any passenger airline would be if they had to park on a cloud, or be diverted to the ramp on some intermediate airport, for several hours (or several dozen hours) during each flight segment because an air freight line owned that airway, wouldn't let the passenger plane onto the airway until it felt like it, and the passenger airline had no way to detour around it........ The fundamental differences are huge.
 
I wonder what the success of any passenger airline would be if they had to park on a cloud, or be diverted to the ramp on some intermediate airport, for several hours (or several dozen hours) during each flight segment because an air freight line owned that airway, wouldn't let the passenger plane onto the airway until it felt like it, and the passenger airline had no way to detour around it........ The fundamental differences are huge.
Oddly, things are not all that different. The airlines are at the mercy of the FAA ATC and the airport authorities much as Amtrak has to deal with the freight railroads. I've sat on a plane for hours waiting for ATC to clear a ground hold. I've waited an hour to move up in the departure queue only to have the winds shift and the departure runway reversed putting us at the back of the line again. I've sat 100 feet from the arrival gate for 30 minutes because the airport had closed the ramps due to a lightning strike 5 miles away and a baggage cart that was blocking our gate approach could not be moved. Each mode has it's challenges.
 
Completely different. UPS and FEDEX don't own the routes and THEY don't decide who uses them. The reasons passenger airliners sit on the tarmac or circle the airport endlessly do NOT include UPS and FEDEX refusing to allow them preference over a fleet of freight aircraft so numerous there's no room for passenger planes on the route, and UPS and FEDEX do NOT dispatch, they do NOT dictate who flies, or when they fly. The congestion is the fault of the airlines themselves with the rare exception of being stuck by a specific "acute" (in medical terms) weather problem that gloms up the works, like an avalanche or rockslide can take out a train track for awhile. The passenger airlines schedule their flights for the convenience of what they perceive will be the most passengers, without regard to whether the origin or destination airport can handle that many arrivals/departures at the same time as all the other pax airlines, and they all pay a price for that, in delays. But that is self-inflicted, not imposed on them by UPS and FEDEX. You can't handle 35 airplanes, all with scheduled arrivals and scheduled departures of 8 am, AT 8 am, at a given airport, which is basically what they try to do. Additionally, of course, trains can't go RNAV Direct or GPS Direct (i.e., off of established airways, direct from airport to airport) as airplanes can. With trains you go where the rails are, period.
 
Amtrak's unions could give a little too. I spoke to an LSA on the Hia and he told me that LSAs are represented by THREE separate unions, (depending on where they hired out). Three unions for the same job- that is unbelieveable not to mention a nightmare in trying to negotiate for a contract.

There are indeed three separate unions that represent Amtrak's On-Board Services employees, depending on work location. They are the Transportation-Communications Union (now part of the International Association of Machinists), the Transport Workers' Union of America, and UNITE-HERE (formerly the Hotel & Restaurant Employees' Union).

However, in contract negotiations these three unions bargain together under an umbrella organization, the Amtrak Service Workers' Council. Amtrak's labor contract is with the ASWC, with the heads of the three unions signatory to the Agreement.

Perhaps the LSA you spoke with was a new hire who really didn't know how the process works. Or perhaps he conveniently left out the simple fact that it's not a nightmare at all.
 
I do not agree at all that a raise is a raise no matter how small and working with the same contract in place is a totally bogus statement to make! Amtrak will NEVER make money, (so they cannot be measured against the airlines that do make money when one excludes the all the support that system gets), yet the employees are still required to give back in the form of no new contracts. Amtrak employees will always look to their freight brothers and sisters with envy regarding their paychecks, they are in the SAME unions so why do they get paid so much less? That is where I was going with my previous statement regarding one union at Amtrak. UTU, TCU, etc, can only do so much for Amtrak employees because they lack real bargaining power!
First, try explaining to someone who has not gotten any increase in salary, how even a COLA of $200 or $400, $1,200 or whatever isn't a raise. I'm not debating whether it is a fair raise, or a deserved raise. But the definition of a raise is an increase in salary, not withstanding the amount. I have a client where 20 front line employees are still making the same gross salary that they were making 3 years ago when they got their last raise, a 2% raise at that and they had gone 4 years prior to that small raise. And in the meantime, their medical insurance has gone up, so they are now taking home less money than they were three years ago. They would be more than happy to see the COLA raises that Amtrak workers have gotten.

Second, airlines don't make money. If you take all the money made and lost over the history of comercial aviation, you'll find that they barely break even. And they wouldn't even do that, but for some help given to them over the years by the Fed.

True, the CN strike was not sanctioned by the union leadership but I would seriously bet that the UTU would not have sanctioned it anyway and the guys south of the border would have continued working regardless because there are different labor laws in Canada. For all intents and purposes US rail workers cannot really strike, (thanks to Reagan- I do believe), if they did so the carriers would simply get an injuction and force the employees back to work or suffer being released/fired. The Fed would back this move and force a 'cooling off period' which would result in an arbitrator becomming involved in negotiations. Traditionally the arbitrators have sided with the carriers so the unions never want that move but this is all elementary.
Whether the strike would have been sanctioned or not isn't the point. Each member of that union in Canada swore to uphold the rules and bylaws of the union, that is the point. They never even gave the President of the union the chance to make a decison one way or the other. If you aren't going to bother to at least try to follow the rules, then there is no point in having a union. Sorry!

If they had filed the measly two pages of paperwork with headquarters, only to have it rejected by headquarters, then I might have more sympathy for their illegal strike. But they didn't bother to do that! And then they turned around and had the nerve to criticize headquarters for not supporting them.

Amtrak employees are not and cannot get the same benefits that their brothers and sisters are getting on other lines so why should they keep the same representation. Amtrak employees may not be paying for health insurance now but they will be- the rest of the UTU is! When Amtrak is figuring out how much to ask for from Congress each year it has to build in a plan as to how its going to pay for the raises it has been getting away with not paying. The alternative- bye bye ACs. Trust me when it comes down to it, the local UTU guys will eventually take this offer to get the remaining members the raises they have been dying for. This is what you guys are failing to see: less pay= less service, plain and simple. It doesn't matter what YOU might think is right and fair. It MATTERS what the employees running the trains think is right and fair. All the letter writing in the world won't help the service until the EMPLOYEES feel they are being treated fairly. Again what is the industy standard for say Metra? NJT? MBTA? Metro North? Cal Trans? If I'm not mistaking all of these conductors get paid more than their Amtrak equivalents and they are subsidized every bit as much, (perhaps not in the same way but its there). How do you as a Union local leader go back to your people and address that one? "Its ok guys we'll get that raise someday. Keep smiling and making people's trips pleasureable." Nonsense, good luck with selling that one. PAY ME!
No arguement from me, I'm more than willing to bet that METRA, NJT, MBTA, and so on, are paying their conductors and A/C's more than Amtrak is.

You're also right that it doesn't matter what I think, it only matters what the employees think. But you must also remember that what the employees think is at least in part based upon what the union wants them to think. Remember the union has motivation here too, no new contract means no increase in money for the union.

Even when the union does do the right thing, that doesn't always mean that the employees end up thinking the right thing or do the right thing. A perfect example is right here in NY, where the MTA workers went on strike two years ago. After the strike ended, a contract was agreed upon by the bulk of the local union leadership. However certain local leaders still weren't happy and they managed to persuade enough workers to vote down that offer. After a year of back and forth, arbitration, and such, the employees that blindly followed those leaders, as well as those who followed the moderate leadership, all ended up with a contract that wasn't quite as lucrative as the one they voted down.

So you'll have to forgive me if I think that far too many employee's think only what their union leaders want them to think, and don't necessarily think about what's really best for them. And I also don't think that union leaders always have the best interests of the membership at hand. I'm not suggesting that all do, but there are plenty of examples of leaders that have stolen from their membership, after convincing the membership to do and/or go along with certain things.

And you may be right that Amtrak is building into the request for funding monies each year to allow for pay raises for the employees. But show me one year recently where Amtrak actually got exactly the amount that they asked for, much less more than they asked for, with the exception of the Warrington years where the budget was pure fiction. If you are correct that Amtrak is budgeting for raises, then blame Congress and the White House for no raises, not Amtrak. They are the ones who didn't supply the full amount of Amtrak's budget request.

Finally, not that it is really relevant, but I'd be willing to bet that most of those commuter agencies are more heavily subsidized than Amtrak.
Alan- you are comparing apples and oranges, (and missing the point), when you compare unionized workers to non-unionized workers so I won't even go down that road. What I am trying to get across regarding pay is the 'industry standard'. The commuter operations move people- so does Amtrak. The commuter roads get massive subsidies, so some might argue, does Amtrak. Why do Amtrak personnel get paid on average much less. Collective bargaining is just that. Bargaining collectively to gain an outcome desired by the majority of workers. I've been in two different unions and believe me when I say I know they do not always act in the best interest of the workers they are supposed to represent. THAT is what I meant when I refered to the 'good and bad' of organized labor. However, one doesn't have to look too far to see that the errosion of the middle class in this country is at least in PARTLY due to the emasculation of the unionized work force. Legislation upon legislation has been passed to strip collective bargaining of its strength and the effect is appearant. CEOs with MASSIVE benefits packages and workers who get their pensions stolen, (see UAL). In Europe the average CEO makes about 50 times what the average worker makes. In the United States it has risen to almost 300 TIMES. I mean how many millions are enough for one person? Just one of those millions could be used to pay that health care or save 25 jobs paying $40,000. Nope, close the plant, build it, make it and even design it elsewhere so I can have my 25 instead of 24 million. You know, I don't really have a problem with what the brass makes, I really don't. I just ask that they SHARE! After all I or somebody like me helped those guys qualify for those millions. So when they make their millions let me make my thousands. Don't ask for more back from me to pad YOUR paycheck. If its the 'industry standard' to pay CEOs xxx# of millions of dollars then why isn't it the industry standard to pay engine and train crews at Amtrak? It unfortunately has become a common misconcepiton in the United States that unions have outlived their usefulness, cost too much and cause more problems then they are worth. That is sad, truly sad. What do we have now? 70-80 hour work weeks becomming the norm? Paying for our own health care? Less and less vacation? Give back your pension? We are going backward in this county and that attitude will come home to roost one day.

However the MTA strike went I admired them for doing it when it hurt most, at the holidays if I recall. Our newscasters here showed angry passenger after angry passenger clamoring to fire the workers because their life schedules were messed up for a little while. That is collective bargaining at its finest. I'd be willing to be that those same folks wouldn't be complaining if THEY worked at MTA and that's the point: it no longer matters how that union was formed or how those people got to be working there. What matters is that they felt they were getting a raw deal and they did something about it. Not everybody gets to be in charge, somebody has to DO the work. Non-unionized workers have only one choice- there's the door.

Now off the soap box. I DO blame Congress and the White House for Amtrak's problems and have written several letters stating just that. It drives me nuts that in the wave of a pen we could have the best most modern rail system in the world. Our government just lacks the appearant will to make that a reality. Congress is the curse, crux and maybe one day the cure for Amtrak's problems. So when I say going eight years without a contract is a problem, believe me it is a problem: for the workers, the management and passengers who prefer to use Amtrak. Stating that they got a raise through COLAs makes you sound like many a manager I know. Perhaps the guy who sends out the annual rap sheet telling the workers how much they REALLY cost when health care and pensions are factored in while making six figures AND fueling his personal car at the company-vehicle gas pump. Like I posted previously, we have enough managers, lawers and accountants. Somebody needs to get out and lead- that is get up and do something. I hope AK at Amtrak is up to the challenge.
 
Amtrak's unions could give a little too. I spoke to an LSA on the Hia and he told me that LSAs are represented by THREE separate unions, (depending on where they hired out). Three unions for the same job- that is unbelieveable not to mention a nightmare in trying to negotiate for a contract.

There are indeed three separate unions that represent Amtrak's On-Board Services employees, depending on work location. They are the Transportation-Communications Union (now part of the International Association of Machinists), the Transport Workers' Union of America, and UNITE-HERE (formerly the Hotel & Restaurant Employees' Union).

However, in contract negotiations these three unions bargain together under an umbrella organization, the Amtrak Service Workers' Council. Amtrak's labor contract is with the ASWC, with the heads of the three unions signatory to the Agreement.

Perhaps the LSA you spoke with was a new hire who really didn't know how the process works. Or perhaps he conveniently left out the simple fact that it's not a nightmare at all.

Interesting, I think the guy told me he worked for Amtrak for 19 years and maybe its not a nighmare but it warrants a closer look sooooo- OK, how many unions are represented at Amtrak? Where I work we have six or seven and some unions already represent multiple crafts. It seems to take us FOREVER to get a new contract, were on our third year without one- yea I got my COLAs wow, thanks. I'm saying that the UTU, (for example), at Amtrak does not have the same bargaining power that it does at say BNSF and that a good strategy needs to be developed that will be equitable to both management and labor. Freights make money so the Unions have a good bargaining chip- 'the slowdown' if not the all out strike. Amtrak moves people and provides, (what I truly believe to be), an essential service which unfortunately does not turn a profit. Amtrak employees can only hide being mad for so long before it begins to show through to the passengers. Disguntled passengers won't ride again, numbers plummet and trains come off. This is simplistic but true, right? So what power do the unions really have here? Not much so I propose that LSAs change representation to one single union, (if I'm not mistaking each union has a treasurer, secretary, delegates, local-chairman, etc, that YOU all are paying for in the form of dues), and go to the company with that, (all of these guys get to take off for 'union business' right? That costs the company money one way or the other). 'We propose to do this for you to make things easier for you and save you some money, now do something for us'- bargaining power. In the mean time your dues go down through the elemination of redundancy because the membership stays essentially the same. Well, if not down, then the dues can stay the same for a few more years and/or the excess could be put into a 'strike fund' to give yourselves an even stronger bargaining position.

I don't mean to offend but we had the chance to do this about 10 years ago where I work and the old heads blew it off and kept up with the 'this is how its always been BS.' No forward thinking, none and about 50 guys ended up losing their jobs because two unions with similar interests continually tried to out-fox each other with the company. Fortunately I was with the 'winning' union. Only we really didn't win, no not really. We got a modest pay raise and a few years later started paying for health insurance. So I say it looks like you guys are in a unique position; use it to your advantage before some crafty guy at the company figures out how to make it work in a way that will make all three of your unions sad.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top