Devil's Advocate
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Walker may have helped write his own attack ad when he promised 250,000 new jobs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DN-VPwAfwnU
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Talgo sues Wisconsin over unused train cars
- Thread starter CHamilton
- Start date
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DN-VPwAfwnU
Here's the paragraph from the Sentinel story and the link to the story:
DOT spokeswoman Peg Schmitt said in a statement the state has incurred $52 million in costs — most of which has gone to Talgo — for the trains. The trains have not been turned over to the state, do not meet specifications and are not compliant with the federal Americans with Disabilities Act, Schmitt said.
http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/talgo-seeks-659-million-from-state-for-abandoned-high-speed-rail-line-b99137348z1-231015571.html#ixzz2k6It6o5L
Have the other state DOTs made any comments to this effect? Obviously, they can't even consider buying the trainsets if this is true. Is WI DOT simply lying?
DOT spokeswoman Peg Schmitt said in a statement the state has incurred $52 million in costs — most of which has gone to Talgo — for the trains. The trains have not been turned over to the state, do not meet specifications and are not compliant with the federal Americans with Disabilities Act, Schmitt said.
http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/talgo-seeks-659-million-from-state-for-abandoned-high-speed-rail-line-b99137348z1-231015571.html#ixzz2k6It6o5L
Have the other state DOTs made any comments to this effect? Obviously, they can't even consider buying the trainsets if this is true. Is WI DOT simply lying?
Yes! 
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Devil's Advocate
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If this dispute involved a brand new regulation then it's entirely possible the legal and practical requirements could be up for honest debate. However, the ADA is not exactly a new law and even if the train sets are violating some portion of it I don't see how that gets the state off the hook financially. Even if we assume there is an actual violation, unless it is so severe that it cannot be corrected and/or Talgo took steps to actively hide the violation from the state, I really don't see how this line of reasoning would help Wisconsin prevail in court. Unless the idea is simply to kick the can down the road regardless of the merits, at taxpayer expense no less, in which case it makes perfect sense.
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Please keep in mind that the two Talgo trainsets in question here were ordered before there was a Stimulus program. Wisconsin had already ordered them for use on the Hiawatha corridor. Then when the Stimulus came along and the dream of service to Madison was funded, they increased the order to 4 trainsets. The other two never got built, but the first two were far enough along already that they were completed even as things showed that Walker would become Governor.
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- Joined
- Feb 18, 2003
- Messages
- 8,507
A couple of comments on the other side of the argument:
- The two Wisconsin Talgo trainsets were purchased by the prior state administration with 100% state funds, and on a no-bid basis. There were several other state rail initiatives that were thought to be possible and maybe even probable future orders for additional Talgos. With the assembly plant and the future maintenance facility being in Wisconsin, being the first in and getting the all that future work in the state was thought to be a coup.
- As federal funding came available with the stimulus, the Talgo option became a problem for other states. The Talgo production did not meet the "Buy America" content requirement for federal funds. Waivers could be issued, and the purchase of two additional sets for the Madison service was approved as was the purchase by Oregon (due to conformance with existing train sets in the PNW), but purchase of Talgo sets by other states was not possible unless Talgo changed their sourcing.
- The cancellation of the Madison extension removed two train sets from future production. There was four firm orders, and that was it.
- The development of the standardized specification for the next generation bi-level cars sealed the doom for Talgo. The states, DOT and Amtrak developed the specification, and those states would be buying bi-level cars, not Talgo. The midwestern states in that group were considered the probables for future Talgo orders. Now, there would be no additional train sets ordered. The production facility would be out of business after the fourth set was finished.
- The maintenance facility became a major cost issue. The original vision was that the facility would eventually be the service hub for maybe dozens of trains operated by multiple states. Now, there was no chance that the facility would service any more than the two Wisconsin trainsets. Providing a facility, parts inventory and specialized labor to maintain just two unique trainsets makes no economic sense. It would be like Southwest Airlines buying two Airbus planes to go with their hundreds of Boeings. The operating costs of those two trainsets would be sky high.
- Wisconsin asked Amtrak if they would maintain the Talgo sets at Chicago. The economics made no more sense for Amtrak than it did for Wisconsin. Amtrak refused.
- With the cost of operating the Talgo sets now excessive due to the maintenance factor, the cost of simply continuing to lease cars and locomotives from Amtrak was less than the cost of operating the Talgos. Much less.
The end result was that Wisconsin decided to refuse delivery of the Talgo sets and maintain Hiawatha Service using leased Amtrak equipment.
The final insult was how Wisconsin was penalized for having purchased the Talgo sets in the first place. Wisconsin bought those two sets with 100% state funding for all the right reasons. Just a couple years later, neighboring states were able to obtain bi-level cars and (shortly) locomotives with 100% federal funding. Wisconsin was shut out of that deal because they bought the Talgos on their own.
- The two Wisconsin Talgo trainsets were purchased by the prior state administration with 100% state funds, and on a no-bid basis. There were several other state rail initiatives that were thought to be possible and maybe even probable future orders for additional Talgos. With the assembly plant and the future maintenance facility being in Wisconsin, being the first in and getting the all that future work in the state was thought to be a coup.
- As federal funding came available with the stimulus, the Talgo option became a problem for other states. The Talgo production did not meet the "Buy America" content requirement for federal funds. Waivers could be issued, and the purchase of two additional sets for the Madison service was approved as was the purchase by Oregon (due to conformance with existing train sets in the PNW), but purchase of Talgo sets by other states was not possible unless Talgo changed their sourcing.
- The cancellation of the Madison extension removed two train sets from future production. There was four firm orders, and that was it.
- The development of the standardized specification for the next generation bi-level cars sealed the doom for Talgo. The states, DOT and Amtrak developed the specification, and those states would be buying bi-level cars, not Talgo. The midwestern states in that group were considered the probables for future Talgo orders. Now, there would be no additional train sets ordered. The production facility would be out of business after the fourth set was finished.
- The maintenance facility became a major cost issue. The original vision was that the facility would eventually be the service hub for maybe dozens of trains operated by multiple states. Now, there was no chance that the facility would service any more than the two Wisconsin trainsets. Providing a facility, parts inventory and specialized labor to maintain just two unique trainsets makes no economic sense. It would be like Southwest Airlines buying two Airbus planes to go with their hundreds of Boeings. The operating costs of those two trainsets would be sky high.
- Wisconsin asked Amtrak if they would maintain the Talgo sets at Chicago. The economics made no more sense for Amtrak than it did for Wisconsin. Amtrak refused.
- With the cost of operating the Talgo sets now excessive due to the maintenance factor, the cost of simply continuing to lease cars and locomotives from Amtrak was less than the cost of operating the Talgos. Much less.
The end result was that Wisconsin decided to refuse delivery of the Talgo sets and maintain Hiawatha Service using leased Amtrak equipment.
The final insult was how Wisconsin was penalized for having purchased the Talgo sets in the first place. Wisconsin bought those two sets with 100% state funding for all the right reasons. Just a couple years later, neighboring states were able to obtain bi-level cars and (shortly) locomotives with 100% federal funding. Wisconsin was shut out of that deal because they bought the Talgos on their own.
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N
Nathanael
Guest
Yes.
Don't be surprised, it's standard M.O. for Walker's gang, like his lie about creating jobs, or the numerous lies made to cover up illegal activities when he was County Executive, etc. His gang has lied about the attempted mining giveaways, his gang lied about the attempted water diversions from the Great Lakes, his gang has lied about basically everything.
The cancellation of the Madison line, which appears to have been done just to spite Madison, also ended up costing the state money, overall.
What's disturbing is that anyone at all supports him. Besides the mining company and the other operators which expect to get giveaways of public land, of course.
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Nathanael
Guest
It doesn't surprise me at all that Walker has deliberately prevented the Claims Board from hearing the Talgo case promptly; that's part of his standard criminal M.O. It's got to be illegal behavior on his part. I think Talgo will soon have a federal constitutional case against Walker, due to Wisconsin's failure to provide equal protection of the laws to Talgo by simply preventing its case from being heard.
Shawn Ryu
Conductor
A lawsuit that could have been avoided. What a true waste of tax money.
neroden
Engineer
It's not what I'd call partisan to describe the sins of Scott Walker.
His crazy anti-train shenanigans are topical here, but there's so much else wrong with him. He allowed loose hunks concrete to fall on the sidewalk outside the county office building at Milwaukee (due to failure to do maintenance) back when he was county executive. Of course, that's where he had the illegal secret email system where his aides did campaigning on county time. Two of the aides were distributing child pornography while they were at it...
Contrast Rick Snyder on the other side of the lake. Nominally the same political party as Walker, but big supporter of train service, and generally seems to understand the concept of "deferred maintenance" and why it's bad. And of course, no secret email systems, no child pornography, etc. And I don't think any of the buildings under his control have been dropping hunks of concrete on the heads of passersby.
His crazy anti-train shenanigans are topical here, but there's so much else wrong with him. He allowed loose hunks concrete to fall on the sidewalk outside the county office building at Milwaukee (due to failure to do maintenance) back when he was county executive. Of course, that's where he had the illegal secret email system where his aides did campaigning on county time. Two of the aides were distributing child pornography while they were at it...
Contrast Rick Snyder on the other side of the lake. Nominally the same political party as Walker, but big supporter of train service, and generally seems to understand the concept of "deferred maintenance" and why it's bad. And of course, no secret email systems, no child pornography, etc. And I don't think any of the buildings under his control have been dropping hunks of concrete on the heads of passersby.
T
Train Ride
Guest
Attack the guy for his stance on trains, but leave the partisan slanders out. I live in Milwaukee and the McDonnell park structure collapse was caused by the 1990s builder using two retaining pins instead of the four called for by the plans. Maintenance does not find retaining pins hidden within a structure. Only the most rabid of partisans still engage in this smear.
Walker ran on killing a train that few wanted and was plagued by politically oriented no-bid contracts by the previous governor and that the parochial city of Madison with their demands was screwing up. People then voted for him and he won. Folks who love trains may not like it and that is fine but you will never get anyone to ponder your side unhinged partisanship. There have been and will continue to be improvements to the trains system in Wisconsin and they will progress better if the train folks set their sights on realistic projects.
Meanwhile, no one lacks for transportation to Madison, Wisconsin, due to the numerous busses, a speedy freeway free of traffic jams and a cost-effective state vanpool system that delivers people right to their places of employment from outlying areas.
Meanwhile, the state DOT is studying expanding the Hiawatha from 7 to 10 round trips a day and working with MN DOT on the second Empire Builder route -- positive things. Ditch the partisan BS and be part of a positive dialogue to make these things happen rather than wallow in the past.
Walker ran on killing a train that few wanted and was plagued by politically oriented no-bid contracts by the previous governor and that the parochial city of Madison with their demands was screwing up. People then voted for him and he won. Folks who love trains may not like it and that is fine but you will never get anyone to ponder your side unhinged partisanship. There have been and will continue to be improvements to the trains system in Wisconsin and they will progress better if the train folks set their sights on realistic projects.
Meanwhile, no one lacks for transportation to Madison, Wisconsin, due to the numerous busses, a speedy freeway free of traffic jams and a cost-effective state vanpool system that delivers people right to their places of employment from outlying areas.
Meanwhile, the state DOT is studying expanding the Hiawatha from 7 to 10 round trips a day and working with MN DOT on the second Empire Builder route -- positive things. Ditch the partisan BS and be part of a positive dialogue to make these things happen rather than wallow in the past.
MikefromCrete
Engineer
Always glad to have Gov. Walker's personal PR guy back on board. We'll see if anything comes of the Hiawathas and second Twin Cities train, but since Walker has always opposed any rail improvements, I doubt it. Glad you've got those freeways and vans, though.
Devil's Advocate
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When a politician arbitrarily redefines the choice as being limited to cheap road improvements for everyone versus an expensive train to nowhere for a few that's true politicization. We don't owe such a person any favors in return for their partisan manipulations. If someone was lying I could better understand your frustrations but we generally speak the truth here. Regardless of your political affiliations I think we can all admit that the US is near the back of the pack when it comes to passenger rail options among industrialized countries. That's not going to change until folks like Scott Walker are replaced with more moderate politicians who consider infrastructure in a more honest manner so that it can be managed as a long term necessity rather than a short term political tool. Personally I think both parties are basically useless at this point and that we need a new 3rd, 4th, or 5th party with a real chance to win. The only way that's ever going to happen is if we get rid of partisan gerrymandering and enforce public financing of low cost elections with more inclusive debate criteria. Until then we'll just keep vacillating between one evil and another.
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neroden
Engineer
*Raises hand* I've canceled several trips to Madison due to lack of adequate transportation. Next?
No, they aren't. They're not serious about any of that; they aren't putting in any money. The best you can say is that they're getting out of the way of Minnesota. Under the three previous governors (both Democratic and Republican), Wisconsin took the lead in rail expansion. The current DOT is willing to *not obstruct* Minnesota and Illinois planning, and that's about it.
This isn't partisan. I just said positive things about Rick Snyder, Tommy Thompson, and Scott McCallum, all of the same political party as Walker. This is about Walker.
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neroden
Engineer
As for the falling concrete, Walker had a report in hand warning that the structure was unsafe for a year. Predictably, he did nothing until someone was killed.
http://host.madison.com/news/opinion/column/joel_mcnally/death-from-falling-concrete-shows-where-walker-s-path-leads/article_c39eb339-4650-5066-ad10-5825b55f4611.html
http://host.madison.com/news/opinion/column/joel_mcnally/death-from-falling-concrete-shows-where-walker-s-path-leads/article_c39eb339-4650-5066-ad10-5825b55f4611.html
Interesting thesis, and it's been posited elsewhere. Maybe when politicians get in touch with the reality of their consitutents lifestyle they'd do something positive about passenger rail in the US. College towns with Amtrak stops seem to be doing just fine. Just my .02 cents.
To be fair, while some people won't take bus trips, both Van Galder and Megabus (both owned by Coach USA) offer trips from Union Station (or one block south, for Megabus) to Madison...they take about three-ish hours one-way. Van Galder costs $30 each way and runs quite frequently. You can even book many of those buses as an Amtrak Thruway connection if you like.
While I certainly concur that our rail system is inadequate, sometimes buses are really the best option in some cases. Perhaps not Madison, but let's not equate no rail service to no adequate transportation.
neroden
Engineer
Motion sickness. The lower estimates say that about 28% of the population is susceptible, including me. Result: buses are OK for short periods, but extremely unpleasant for long periods.
Walker ran an incredibly misleading attack on a rail project that had been in the planning for many years, under both Republican and Democratic leadership in Madison. That is not to say Doyle made great choices either (one can certainly question the Talgo decision and the choices regarding the MSN station location). However, Walker simply said "Stop this train" rather than something more nuanced, like working with the feds to possibly improve the project. Only after the MKE-MSN Hiawatha extension was canceled did he make a last-minute attempt to seek funding for CHI-MKE improvements.
And just think Charlie, Rush Limbaugh was promoting Walker to be the Republican candidate for President in 2016 on his program today.
