The Electrification discussion

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dlagrua said:
If you ask me, Amtrak missed a large opportunity to have a long electrified line when the Milwaukee Road line to Seattle went bankrupt and was abandoned.
Milwaukee Road's electrification crossed five mountain ranges covering 656 route miles of their main line in two separate divisions: 440 miles between Harlowton, Mont., and Avery, Ida., 216 miles between Othello, Wash., Seattle and Tacoma. They even had their own power stations. No railroad company picked up the route and it probably could have been picked up on the cheap. Much of the ROW is still there but not much else.
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Sorry, but the electrification had been removed quite a few years before the line itself was abandoned. Not sure, but I think it was 3kv DC, different from anything else in North America.
 
George Harris said:
Sorry, but the electrification had been removed quite a few years before the line itself was abandoned. Not sure, but I think it was 3kv DC, different from anything else in North America.
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It was 3kv DC and was in poor condition at the end. From an Amtrak 1970's standpoint, the engine changes for the missing link between Avery and Othello would have been a nuisance. Two segments of the Pacific Extension might have been useful: Seattle to Spokane and Miles City to MSP across South Dakota. Passenger trains ran via Spokane Union Station on the UP. The Milwaukee Road had its own freight bypass south of Spokane. That division of traffic reduced the potential for electrification.

When the electrification was new, it was a sensation. Soviet engineers were sent to study it and they copied it. In later years they adopted high voltage AC and in 2010 I found that they were converting the DC lines. Some Comecon countries, however, are also stuck with 3kv DC.

Central Montana? Nyet, Siberia.
2010 Russia 289.jpg
 
AmtrakMaineiac said:
Since Belgium uses 3KV DC on its conventional lines which is different from its neighboring countries (Netherlands is 1500V DC, Germany 15KV 16.7Hz AC, France 25Kv AC) there wouldn't be overlap of operation, except for multi voltage locomotives which are probably equipped with different pantographs to deal with this. I imagine any of the high speed lines with 25KV AC and through running with other European countries would have the necessary clearances.
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I think the 3kV may also be the explanation for the limited clearance. At lower voltages you need less electrical clearance, smaller insulators etc.

In Britain when they first took the decision to move to 25kV AC for the WCML, there were bridges along this route and some of the branches that would not have had sufficient clearance for the electrification. Rather then rebuild them all, many were temporary electrified at 6.25kV (which is a quarter of 25kV) as this allowed them to squeeze in the clearances. The voltage was still sufficient to be able to start a train should it have to stop in such a location. I believe ,most if not all of these locations have since been rebuilt to more generous clearances and modern 25kV trains are no longer specced to cope with 6.25kV.
 
jis said:
There is neither a commercial case nor a plan to convert everything to be able to carry Double Stack, as in balance, that is not considered to be a prudent investment. In the future segments can be converted as needed, but most such would be on the DFCs and not the legacy network. One thing different between Indians and the US or Europe is that Indians seem not to shy away from making investments to lay out a thousand km long new route on new RoW, so it is likely that most double stack capable routes will be new routes not converted classic routes which are more than saturated already with passenger traffic.
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India also understand that investments are not just throwing money into the wind but that projects such as these create jobs, accumulate expertise, and create many virtuous cycles that benefit broader society, quite besides the actual utility to the railroad.

India has gone from being a country that relied heavily on foreign railroad know-how and could at best ask to be allowed to do some local assembly, to a country that develops and builds most of what it needs, and is even increasingly exporting equipment. In more or less the same time span, the USA has gone from being a massive exporter of railroad equipment to one that relies on foreign know-how and manufacturers.
 
dlagrua said:
If you ask me, Amtrak missed a large opportunity to have a long electrified line when the Milwaukee Road line to Seattle went bankrupt and was abandoned.
Milwaukee Road's electrification crossed five mountain ranges covering 656 route miles of their main line in two separate divisions: 440 miles between Harlowton, Mont., and Avery, Ida., 216 miles between Othello, Wash., Seattle and Tacoma. They even had their own power stations. No railroad company picked up the route and it probably could have been picked up on the cheap. Much of the ROW is still there but not much else.
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Owning and having to maintain such a long route for just one train would be prohibitively expensive, and would never happen…
 
cirdan said:
I think the 3kV may also be the explanation for the limited clearance. At lower voltages you need less electrical clearance, smaller insulators etc.

In Britain when they first took the decision to move to 25kV AC for the WCML, there were bridges along this route and some of the branches that would not have had sufficient clearance for the electrification. Rather then rebuild them all, many were temporary electrified at 6.25kV (which is a quarter of 25kV) as this allowed them to squeeze in the clearances. The voltage was still sufficient to be able to start a train should it have to stop in such a location. I believe ,most if not all of these locations have since been rebuilt to more generous clearances and modern 25kV trains are no longer specced to cope with 6.25kV.
Click to expand...
In India, electrification of the Kolkata area suburban network started at 3kV DC in the mid-50s. But then IR standardized on 25kV AC in the early '60s and that network did not go far, just two lines, before it was all converted to 25kV using the same catenary but now suspended using longer insulators suitably adjusted maintain same catenary height.

All the 3kV DC rolling stock (EMUs and about a dozen locos) were converted to 1.5kV DC and transferred to Bombay where they ran for many years. Of course even Bombay has now been fully converted to 25kV AC.

Recently I noticed that the original 3kV electrification posts and gantries have now mostly been replaced by modern 25kV structures which are much lighter and more pleasing to the eye. All the old stuff has been torn down and replaced with new standard stuff. Mumbai still hs the old 1.5kV structures but now holding 25kV catenary.

Meanwhile, the original 25kV electrification on the Kolkata - Delhi main trunk route via Grand Chord is being wholesale re-electrified with shorter spans to get it ready for 160-200kph operation.
 
jis said:
In India, electrification of the Kolkata area suburban network started at 3kV DC in the mid-50s. But then IR standardized on 25kV AC in the early '60s and that network did not go far, just two lines, before it was all converted to 25kV using the same catenary but now suspended using longer insulators suitably adjusted maintain same catenary height.

All the 3kV DC rolling stock (EMUs and about a dozen locos) were converted to 1.5kV DC and transferred to Bombay where they ran for many years. Of course even Bombay has now been fully converted to 25kV AC.

Recently I noticed that the original 3kV electrification posts and gantries have now mostly been replaced by modern 25kV structures which are much lighter and more pleasing to the eye. All the old stuff has been torn down and replaced with new standard stuff. Mumbai still hs the old 1.5kV structures but now holding 25kV catenary.

Meanwhile, the original 25kV electrification on the Kolkata - Delhi main trunk route via Grand Chord is being wholesale re-electrified with shorter spans to get it ready for 160-200kph operation.
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Was the 3kv DC project Soviet-influenced? For example, having manually operated substations?
 
Willbridge said:
Was the 3kv DC project Soviet-influenced? For example, having manually operated substations?
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I believe it was more French influenced. Indian Railways has not used anything Russian until the recent order for articulated Sleeper trains, which may or may not actually happen, other than Rails IIRC.

All Indian electrification post independence was inspired by the Japanese (Hitachi Mitsubishi Toshiba consortium) and the European 50Hz Group, and before AC, the DC was SNCF inspired IIRC.
 
jis said:
and before AC, the DC was SNCF inspired IIRC.
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With the exception of some of the quaint third rail stuff, DC electrification on SNCF was (and is) exclusively 1,500V DC AFAIK.

3,000V could/can be found in several neighboring countries including Spain, Belgium and Italy, which explains why SNCF had dual-voltage/multi-voltage locomotives that could deal with it. But it was never their weapon of choice.
 
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cirdan said:
I think the 3kV may also be the explanation for the limited clearance. At lower voltages you need less electrical clearance, smaller insulators etc.

In Britain when they first took the decision to move to 25kV AC for the WCML, there were bridges along this route and some of the branches that would not have had sufficient clearance for the electrification. Rather then rebuild them all, many were temporary electrified at 6.25kV (which is a quarter of 25kV) as this allowed them to squeeze in the clearances. The voltage was still sufficient to be able to start a train should it have to stop in such a location. I believe ,most if not all of these locations have since been rebuilt to more generous clearances and modern 25kV trains are no longer specced to cope with 6.25kV.
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I recall the use of some 6.25kv sections was done on the London Tilbury and Southend line (now c2c) that ran by the house I grew up in (South Benfleet) in the original 1961 electrification due to clearance issues. I believe all of those sections have been subsequently upgraded so that the whole line is now 25kv.
 
eldomtom2 said:
Which of course is also the case in Europe.
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What is even more interesting in India is that there is all of about 200km of route where double stack capable DFC shares trackage with passenger trains, mainly between Delhi Cantonment and Phulera on the Western DFC. The Eastern DFC is not designed for double stack at all as its capacity capability is engineered with single stack in mind, so it does not require high catenary either. But instead they prefer multi track routes unlike the US, which allows them to run a more fluid railroad with more number of shorter trains, somewhat similar to Europe there too.
 
cirdan said:
With the exception of some of the quaint third rail stuff, DC electrification on SNCF was (and is) exclusively 1,500V DC AFAIK.

3,000V could/can be found in several neighboring countries including Spain, Belgium and Italy, which explains why SNCF had dual-voltage/multi-voltage locomotives that could deal with it. But it was never their weapon of choice.
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SNCF was the adviser that advised using 3kV DC as the most upto date technology back then. They were investigating both 3kV DC and 25 kV AC. By then they knew that 1.5 kV DC had no future in high power mainline electrification. As soon as SNCF standardized on 25kV AC so did Indian Railways. Initially they acquired equipment from a European and a Japanese consortium.

India swiftly converted all the 3kV DC to 25kV AC. OTOH it took them until the 21st Century to convert the very complex 1.5kV DC electrification around Mumbai to 25kV AC. But that is all 25kV AC now.
 
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When I was at university in the 1990s, the lecturer on my railroad course once told us there was a proposal to electrify a line with high-voltage DC. This project would have involved stringing the catenary much higher than on conventional lines, but thanks to the lower losses and absence of reactive power effects, it would have permitted very long lines to be electrified with a much reduced number of feeders and substations. I can't remember where it was proposed but it might have been southern Africa or it might have one of the ex-Soviet countries in central Asia. It was intended for pulling very heavy mineral trains. I remember him showing us a slide of the artist's mockup of the locomotive with enormously long pantographs, somehow reminiscent of the ones we now see on Indian locomotives.

Despite much googling, I was unfortunately unable to find much more on this. Obviously nothing has come of the proposal as we would certainly have heard of it, had it been built.
 
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Interestingly, all modern AC electric locomotives have a DC link (bus) which operates at around 3kV! HV AC is stepped down and rectified to feed this bus. Regenerative brake current is also converted to DC to feed this bus. All the power sinks like the traction motors and train hotel power are powered from this link through inverters producing the right type of AC at the right voltage and frequency. This is the architecture everyone seems to have settled down on ever since the appropriate solid state power electronics parts became available and reliable. This is why AC electric locomotives of today present negligible inductive load, unlike the locomotives of earlier architecture.
 
cirdan said:
When I was at university in the 1990s, the lecturer on my railroad course once told us there was a proposal to electrify a line with high-voltage DC. This project would have involved stringing the catenary much higher than on conventional lines, but thanks to the lower losses and absence of reactive power effects, it would have permitted very long lines to be electrified with a much reduced number of feeders and substations. I can't remember where it was proposed but it might have been southern Africa or it might have one of the ex-Soviet countries in central Asia. It was intended for pulling very heavy mineral trains. I remember him showing us a slide of the artist's mockup of the locomotive with enormously long pantographs, somehow reminiscent of the ones we now see on Indian locomotives.

Despite much googling, I was unfortunately unable to find much more on this. Obviously nothing has come of the proposal as we would certainly have heard of it, had it been built.
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Maybe there was some confusion with the 50Kv AC iron ore railway in South Africa, which does indeed have a much longer distance between substations than other AC lines? (Historically their solution to the problems caused by this was to run mixed electric/diesel consists, but that has apparently stopped and they run all-electric trains now).
 

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