St. Paul, Milwaukee, Chicago (TCMC) second daily service

Advertise with us
shop deals on amazon
Shop deals on ebay
Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
WWW: Thanks for the info. It appears that the green space next to the present platform may be able to have restored tracks? More tracks will certainly be needed if all the proposed services happen in the future. Getting county to agree even if outside funding were available seems to be a challenge, Now that wye. Oh boy. Only a passenger flyover over all that mess would completely solve the problem. Funding? No way. at present.
 
WWW said:
I don't recall the past SPUD trackage (* see later comment) but this Google map Link:

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9467552,-93.0851925,119m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu

shows 3 tracks under the head house - 2 are thru tracks which Amtrak uses
That 3rd dead end track I believe was planned for perhaps some inter city rail SPUD to Target Field ?
That track could be extended to make another thru track.

The real complexity of this is the 60 some freight trains transiting the Division Street WYE just
east of SPUD - zoom out on that map link - BNSF CP CN UP TCW (more*) all cross travel blocking
access to/from SPUD in some way. Some of these freights have 135+ cars and as many as 6 locomotives - - -
It takes what seems forever for this WYE to have clear trackage.
Amtrak #7 is really hampered by this - leaves CUS on time and progresses fairly well thru Wisconsin
stops and up river to the crossing at Hastings then delay set in waiting for clear tracks thru the WYE
to SPUD - thus on an On-Time arrival snatches delay from the jaws of what coulda shoulda been
schedule.

Interesting a brief history in the mid 19th Century there were 2 depots in Minneapolis the Great Northern
located where the Federal Reserve Bank is Hennepin Avenue river crossing and the Milwaukee
3rd and Washington Avenue - The Milwaukee depot building is still there. From these two depots
train travel was possible to just about anywhere in the upper midwest.
In St. Paul the venerable SPUD served for years until the USPS took over the building for a regional
mail distribution sorting center causing Amtrak to move its operation to the Midway depot location.
This location has been brought up time and time again to be used again as a joint operation between
the Twin Cities replacing SPUD Target Field creating one uniform railroad transportation center.
Problem here location location location out in between the cities in a Commercial Rail freight yard.
Zoom map link out and follow the tracks to see this or use this link:

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9629944,-93.1845059,424m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu

That dark rectangular shape building in the center of the link is the old Midway depot.

No hotels - no night entertainment - limited restaurants - a good block walk to the exisitng
Green Line lite rail (in the winter or weather related issues who wants to put up with that !)

SPUD is the answer but future trains traveling north to say Duluth need to stop in or near
downtown Minneapolis and perhaps have good connections to the MSP airport ?

There is plenty of room for Amtrak trains 7 & 8 and the 7X? & 8X? second Chicago train.
The 7X? & 8X? could easily start in Minneapolis
The trips to Duluth (I heard as many a 4 daily?) can certainly be fitted into a schedule - - -
What do the airlines do with a limited number of gates to work with ? Think about it !

As for private trains these too can be fitted into the/a schedule.
* Comment:
Walking the great hall at SPUD there must have been perhaps 8 tracks - some where
thru tracks 3 or 4 ?
Some of these must have been back ended to exit the way they arrived
to go the Midway subdivision route to Minneapolis and other points !

I remember of a Cub Scout outing going from the Milwaukee Depot in Minneapolis
via the Short Line to the SPUD in St. Paul and returning to the Great Northern depot via the Midway SD.
Click to expand...
1975 - train time in the Minneapolis GN Station at street level.
IMG0029 Atk Minneapolis Stn (2).jpg

1975 - Train 7 underneath Minneapolis GN Station.
IMG0001 Atk7 in Minneapolis.jpg
 
Harmon Shay said:
But I think they're going to have to get some of the Midwest cafe-lounges into service before anything will be available for the second Chicago-St. Paul train. As it is now, they don't have enough club dinettes to give Seattle a spare for the Cascades. We have one of our six Cascades Horizon trainsets running without a food service car right now, at least as of yesterday. I'm NPRocky, by the way, a brand new member.
Click to expand...

There are 3 California Horizon dinettes that ran within the consists of ex-NJT cars on San Joaquins, out of use since the pandemic began 4 years ago, but I have heard Amtrak wants them back. Maybe for this, or else why would they given that there are Venture cafes soon coming on line ?
 
WWW said:
I remember of a Cub Scout outing going from the Milwaukee Depot in Minneapolis
via the Short Line to the SPUD in St. Paul and returning to the Great Northern depot via the Midway SD.
Click to expand...
WWW..... Sir. your LAST sentence caught my attention! I also was in Scouts and took the same trip (Msp to Stp). Must have been in 1965 0r 66. Don't remember much of the train ride (my 1st) due to being "dazzled" about riding a real train (had my own 027 train set). If I am correct, the St. Paul station had a room (somewhere in that gigantic station) that featured a a very large model train layout that our tour-guide (or someone) operated for us young boys. Maybe HO scale of the St.Paul area. Thought it was REALLY "cool".
 
OmahaRoad said:
And if is expansion is ever needed, operationally? Well, that does represent my wildest rail dreams for passenger rail in Minnesota. Then again, Raleigh Union Station here in NC makes do with "only" 2 tracks to serve 12 trains a day, or 8 more than SPUD will serve even with the TCMC running, so unless train storage became an issue I don't see it happening for a long while. But a man can dream!
Click to expand...
Then again, the two track Brightline Orlando International Airport station handles 32 trains a day.

There is little reason that two tracks would not be able to handle 4-6 tph specially if they are mostly short distance trains.
 
Steve4031 said:
The great hall at union station in Chicago has been closed for events too. Though I usually use the metropolitan lounge, I find this practice offensive. It was such a problem at the curio union station hotel in St Louis that I quit booking there.
Click to expand...
CUS does have a decently sized concourse though for passengers to wait. Currently it’s being renovated to update the waiting areas and improve flow.
 
OmahaRoad said:
Me too--I really can't think of what their big issue is. Certainly not a space issue at this time. That said, I wonder if it's possible that Amtrak is scared of Brightline coming up north and trying to run a competing MSP - CHI service at some point?! Maybe? I can't think of any possible concerns beyond that already far-fetched point. I am not saying that would be easy at ALL for Brightline to do, but I could see Ramsey County balking at exclusive rights for Amtrak if there's even been the slightest inkling of Brightline trying to serve this corridor at some point.
Click to expand...
Brightline has mentioned Midwest corridors in the past but they want to be the exclusive operator of those trains. Notably they mentioned the Chicago-St Louis route, probably because the public paid for all the upgrades.
 
jis said:
Then again, the two track Brightline Orlando International Airport station handles 32 trains a day.

There is little reason that two tracks would not be able to handle 4-6 tph specially if they are mostly short distance trains.
Click to expand...
Yes indeed, that's a good point! I think I was getting overexcited just at the idea of needing to expand 😆 2 tracks can do quite a lot! I'm on the Silver Star right now headed to NYP and just passed through Petersburg, VA, which I think handles about 12 trains/day and is obviously a small station with (didn't look in detail) just the one track actually used to board/alight passengers.
 
Amtrak25 said:
Doesn't SPUD also have to function as a yard ? The Boeralis is going to spend the night there while #7 and #8 roll through. Where would they put other trains ? Even Pittsburgh has a one or two other stub tracks besides the one the Pennsylvanian uses.
Click to expand...
Luckily there is ample space for building multiple storage tracks, if needed and also for building another platform with two platform tracks should it become necessary.
 
At SPUD there is the very rare possibility of both Amtrak #7 (late night 11pm) and #8 (early morning 8-9 am)
each being delayed to have both trains occupying the 2 available thru tracks causing any third train from using
these 2 tracks. Extremely very rare - not that it has not happened before but what do the airlines do when a
gate is not available "They Wait!".
There is more of a problem with freight traffic on that Division Street WYE to contend with !!!

There is one very short siding that could be extended (the 261 North Pole Express) suitable for probably a
locomotive baggage car 3 coaches and a push-pull locomotive
As for other available storage parking one prime yard would be the (UP) former coal car siding under the High Bridge (Smith Avenue) about two miles away.
Another would be further away - the CP Pigs Eye yard
Reference Google Map LINK: Zooom in and out as necessary - panning right and left to see the rail trackage:

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9473557,-93.0856691,1961m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu

SPUD centered in image - - - look for the little white bus on a blue background image.

People people time to stop kicking the can down the tracks and kick this into high gear !
This is not a model railroad we are playing with here - it is real time real transportation issue !
 
jis said:
Then again, the two track Brightline Orlando International Airport station handles 32 trains a day.

There is little reason that two tracks would not be able to handle 4-6 tph specially if they are mostly short distance trains.
Click to expand...
Wasn't there a rumor that the old Amtrak Midway station was going to become a maintenance base for the second Chicago-St. Paul train, and perhaps for minor servicing on the Empire Builder if needed?
 
Harmon Shay said:
Wasn't there a rumor that the old Amtrak Midway station was going to become a maintenance base for the second Chicago-St. Paul train, and perhaps for minor servicing on the Empire Builder if needed?
Click to expand...
I am not really upto speed on the details of the plans in the Twin Cities area. I am sure there are others here who can shed more knowledgeable light on this matter,
 
jis said:
Then again, the two track Brightline Orlando International Airport station handles 32 trains a day.

There is little reason that two tracks would not be able to handle 4-6 tph specially if they are mostly short distance trains.
Click to expand...
Broadly speaking, once you get to two tracks, as long as you aren't in a stub-end situation you've got a lot of capacity. Stub end stations run into trouble since terminating trains need to go somewhere, so you can get a lot of extra moves if you're not servicing trains on the platform (witness GCT's constraints vs Penn, or even the relative throughput upstairs vs downstairs at Washington Union). That being said, a third/fourth track might become desirable if you're dealing with regular delays or slow boarding/heavy traffic loads.

[As an example, I'd be wary of Brightline Orlando running that many trains in one direction on just two tracks...but that's more because the escalators would easily get overwhelmed. Even Washington Union could get a bit "squeezed" with too many trains downstairs, but that's more because of platform/escalator capacity than anything.]
 
Harmon Shay said:
Wasn't there a rumor that the old Amtrak Midway station was going to become a maintenance base for the second Chicago-St. Paul train, and perhaps for minor servicing on the Empire Builder if needed?
Click to expand...
I too had heard a rumor as such about returning restoring the Midway depot location but as I had noted before -

Amtrak to move its operation to the Midway depot location.
This location has been brought up time and time again to be used again as a joint operation between
the Twin Cities replacing SPUD & Target Field creating one uniform railroad transportation center.
Problem here location location location out in between the cities in a Commercial Rail freight yard.
Zoom map link out and follow the tracks to see this or use this link:

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9629944,-93.1845059,424m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu

That dark rectangular shape building in the center of the link is the old Midway depot.

No hotels - no night entertainment - limited restaurants - a good block walk to the existing
Green Line lite rail (in the winter or weather related issues who wants to put up with that !)

YES would be a good location for train maintenance (by contract with Commercial Rail which
has its own maintenance facility and yard).

But any further development of additional tracks and platforms in a very confined space is
a significant issue for multiple trains (note the north bound exit from the depot runs thru
a yard with some 33 tracks and the south bound all exiting onto 1 single track to merge
with the former Short Line route to SPUD - yet Amtrak trains 7 & 8 transit thru this daily
with speed reduction transferring off the BNSF tracks to Commercial Rail and onto CP.
The tracks are not as they were back in the 30s 40s 50s.

Side note the Commercial Rail yard is where the Private rail cars are dis/connected to the
Amtrak 7 & 8 by a Commercial Rail crew - usually not much of a delay issue.
 
Harmon Shay said:
Wasn't there a rumor that the old Amtrak Midway station was going to become a maintenance base for the second Chicago-St. Paul train, and perhaps for minor servicing on the Empire Builder if needed?
Click to expand...
In brief, yes, this was maybe even a little more than a rumor--it was something discussed and mentioned by stakeholders involved in the project. Here's my guess: Now that MN has appropriated more $ for the TCMC and for passenger rail in general, if the TCMC is successful I could see the old Midway station become a maintenance base in a few years. Unclear to me if new money would need to be appropriated for this but I think so. I wonder if this could become a maintenance base for the (knock on wood) future Northern Lights Express to Duluth as well? But that's a separate question.
 
Since I don't know much about Twin Cities transportation geography, I have a couple of questions. Would it be worth reopening Midway station for its good parking and freeway access and reducing St. Paul Union, with what I understand is its not-so-great parking and freeway access, to some sort of caretaker status? Would reopening Midway, admittedly still in St. Paul, help the fact that Minneapolis no longer has an Amtrak station? I've also heard of the possibility of having Amtrak make an arrangement with North Star to use its Fridley station as an Amtrak stop.
 
With all due respect, Amtrak left Midway for SPUD because a city-center legacy station was considered an upgrade.

Unlike some old stations that survive as mostly not a train station, it still has the concourse leading out to the platforms. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the aerial view on Google Streetview seems like there's enough room between the active platform at the far end of the concourse and the unused platform next to the bus area to rebuild two platforms and restore tracks to the unused platform.

Streetview from the bus area seems to show the area under the concourse is clear to the other side, and streetview from E. 2nd Street shows the concrete viaduct underlying the tracks is well-maintained and intact up to the edge of 2nd St.

In short, unless there's some factor I'm not seeing on Google Streetview, I see no reason SPUD couldn't have four platforms and eight tracks, seven of them being through tracks, with no more than the construction of the platforms and relaying of tracks.
 
John Bredin said:
With all due respect, Amtrak left Midway for SPUD because a city-center legacy station was considered an upgrade.

Unlike some old stations that survive as mostly not a train station, it still has the concourse leading out to the platforms. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the aerial view on Google Streetview seems like there's enough room between the active platform at the far end of the concourse and the unused platform next to the bus area to rebuild two platforms and restore tracks to the unused platform.

Streetview from the bus area seems to show the area under the concourse is clear to the other side, and streetview from E. 2nd Street shows the concrete viaduct underlying the tracks is well-maintained and intact up to the edge of 2nd St.

In short, unless there's some factor I'm not seeing on Google Streetview, I see no reason SPUD couldn't have four platforms and eight tracks, seven of them being through tracks, with no more than the construction of the platforms and relaying of tracks.
Click to expand...
Yes all of this is true - except for only one track (the CP/Milwaukee Short Line) going up the grade to the Commercial Rail Transfer yard to the junction with the BNSF.
The other route is a back-ended merge with the Division St WYE traffic for transit thru the Midway subdivisions
of both the CP BNSF & others.

AND the BIGGEST problem that Division Street WYE with some 60 trains transiting thru St. Paul.
Insurmountable problem ? - well it will be a nightmare but it could be solved with elevated tracks to bypass this
mess - one solution - surely the Freight traffic could yield to small 5 car unit passenger trains of short time frequency unlike the freights with 115+ cars and 6 locomotives - yes observed UP trains crossing the Mississippi river at/under the Robert Street bridge interrupting access to SPUD !

But how many of these passenger trains are we planning on for the present - surely 3 or 4 should not be an
inconvenience to the freights ?
 
Siegmund said:
Boreas was the god of the north wind. It's about time he got a train named after him. His brother Zephyrus got much luckier, in that respect. And it's been almost 100 years now since you could ride a train over Boreas Pass in Colorado, though you can still drive the old roadbed.
Click to expand...

And, surely, the new train name is to honor the ceremonial king of St. Paul's annual Winter carnival, yes?

https://wintercarnival.com/legend/king-boreas/
 
OmahaRoad said:
Commissioner Martinson said a number of things to the effect of "There are other trains that do come in or want to come in with special events and otherwise [Metro Transit once ran a Northstar commuter rail holiday train to SPUD, plus there's Train Days each May, not anything else really], and we don't want to keep other 'trains' [read: operators] from using SPUD in the future."
Click to expand...

Minneapolis based Friends of 261 has used SPUD at times in the past, particularly for their holiday train, which is the organization's biggest fundraising endeavor, annually. Though, I believe their most recent events may have originated in Minneapolis.

And PV owners have, historically, used St. Paul as a base of operations for adding/dropping cars.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top