Progress on service to Madison WI

Metra Electric Rider said:

Funny that this thread got revised almost exactly a year later!

Fingers crossed a selection is made before December 2024...

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Federal grant awarded -> Governor's Press Release quotes Madison Mayor -> at least two local news outlets report quotes from the same Madison city planner Callin, but I don't see a press release. This local new story glosses it with more detail, and bit of probably over-dramatic foreboding: "It’s not going to be easy. Callin says Madison needs a ‘sweet spot’ that can handle..." etc.

The story mentions schedule for the next meeting, and it matches up with the city web page for the station selection process, so I guess the city page is not stale:

https://www.cityofmadison.com/transportation/initiatives/passenger-rail-station-studyPassenger Rail Station Study
Meeting 1 - Project Kick-off: December, 2022
Meeting 2 - Corridor Evaluation Results + Preliminary Station Sites: Early 2024
Meeting 3 - Draft Site Recommendation: Spring 2024

JamesWhitcombRiley said:

Federal grant awarded -> Governor's Press Release quotes Madison Mayor -> at least two local news outlets report quotes from the same Madison city planner Callin, but I don't see a press release. This local new story glosses it with more detail, and bit of probably over-dramatic foreboding: "It’s not going to be easy. Callin says Madison needs a ‘sweet spot’ that can handle..." etc.

The story mentions schedule for the next meeting, and it matches up with the city web page for the station selection process, so I guess the city page is not stale:

https://www.cityofmadison.com/transportation/initiatives/passenger-rail-station-studyPassenger Rail Station Study
Meeting 1 - Project Kick-off: December, 2022
Meeting 2 - Corridor Evaluation Results + Preliminary Station Sites: Early 2024
Meeting 3 - Draft Site Recommendation: Spring 2024

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Might a new station be intermodal, like Milwaukee, with room for buses, also?

NorthShore said:

Might a new station be intermodal, like Milwaukee, with room for buses, also?

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It's possible. The former Oscar Meyer location is also the former North Transfer Point for Madison Metro Bus System. Also, plenty of lot space. The former CNW Station location has a modest amount of room.

I watched parts of "Meeting 1 - Project Kick-off: December, 2022." The city planners talked about multimodal. Were they more enthusiastic than when they talked about parking and track geometry? They were very professional, so hard to tell. But I sensed parking was going to be an issue, as in, who wants how much. I think they like the Downtown location, which has been studied before, but were also exited by locations that have not been studied before: Oscar Meyer, which has lots of development opportunity; and Near East Side, which has lots of space and would help that community? Who knows. They may have indicated Downtown has met with some resistance, right there on the waterfront?? I may be adding something that wasn't there, and they don't control this thing of course.

It's early on, before comments. They are following Amtrak's guidebook for planning a new station. Here's one slide from the video, at 19:56. Aside from these criteria, they mentioned accommodating future service "north to the Twin Cities," if I heard correctly. I don't think they mentioned high-level platforms, but I could have missed it. I'd guess Amtrak wants that.

jis said:

https://www.wmtv15news.com/2023/12/...locations-build-amtrak-train-station-madison/

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Most interesting (DATED) article - especially the discussion about the station location at Madison.

IMO the station should be adjacent to the MSE airport -
Parking solved
Access to already airport to downtown service ***
*** although it upsets my theme of train service between cities downtown-to-downtown faster than air
Like MKA (Milwaukee airport station) a sort of joint enterprise access with air transport going further
than just i.e. Chicago
Avoids backing/reversing train into some of the other sites.
In any event there is that almost 180 degree turn (First St location) to continue eastward to Milwaukee et al

And of course any route/station location is going to require an expensive infrastructure track upgrading to
operate the train at speeds satisfying the/a scheduled operation.

Amazing how a Capitol city has been left out of the transportation equation for this period of time.
True not a great deal of states have passenger train to/from their capitol and politicians don't travel
by horse and buggy nor railroad these days. But as posted before Madison would be the 3rd largest
city for the Empire Builder transit STP (MSP) MKE being 1 and 2 SPK coming in 4th.

WWW said:

In any event there is that almost 180 degree turn (First St location) to continue eastward to Milwaukee et al

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The East Side Station alternative is the one that avoids this area. (Alternative, as in, every choice considered is an alternative.) Until the train is extended to the Twin Cities.

WWW said:

politicians don't travel by horse and buggy nor railroad these days.

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I'd bet there's some where there's (1) a large metro area electing multiple state legislators, to (2) a capital not in that metro area, with (3) sufficiently frequent service between the metro area and the capital. Albany on the Empire Service, Harrisburg on the Keystone Service, Trenton on the Northeast Corridor, Springfield on the Lincoln Service, and Sacramento on the Capitol Corridor. Possibly
Richmond on the NEC (etc.) and Salem on the Cascades Service.

I know when I've taken the Lincoln Service to Springfield when the General Assembly's in session, there's some bigwigs in business class.

JamesWhitcombRiley said:

The East Side Station alternative is the one that avoids this area. (Alternative, as in, every choice considered is an alternative.) Until the train is extended to the Twin Cities.

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The way I view the diagram/map the East Side Station would be after that turn from the tracks WSOR & CPR
coming from the north - the WSOR tracks coming from the west of course would not make that transit.

John Bredin said:

I'd bet there's some where there's (1) a large metro area electing multiple state legislators, to (2) a capital not in that metro area, with (3) sufficiently frequent service between the metro area and the capital. Albany on the Empire Service, Harrisburg on the Keystone Service, Trenton on the Northeast Corridor, Springfield on the Lincoln Service, and Sacramento on the Capitol Corridor. Possibly
Richmond on the NEC (etc.) and Salem on the Cascades Service.

I know when I've taken the Lincoln Service to Springfield when the General Assembly's in session, there's some bigwigs in business class.

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When I was treasurer of the Portland<>Salem Commuter Club our membership at various times included the Attorney General, the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, Representative Vera Katz (later mayor of Portland), numerous mid-level officials, etc. It's as ideal a situation as transit planners can get, as they're going regularly to a location that has been fixed for years.

They took work home with them and the nature of their positions required a lot of reading. Riding our highway coaches let them work en route. There's a certain amount of camaraderie, but if someone wanted to work, they'd be left alone.

WWW said:

The way I view the diagram/map the East Side Station would be after that turn from the tracks WSOR & CPR
coming from the north - the WSOR tracks coming from the west of course would not make that transit.

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I probably got that wrong, thanks. Lot of tracks in Madison. I take it the University station alternative is not likely?

JamesWhitcombRiley said:

I probably got that wrong, thanks. Lot of tracks in Madison. I take it the University station alternative is not likely?

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Yes -- It's too far west. The train would have to cross the Isthmus in order to serve the station closest to the University, then traverse the Isthmus again in order to return to the route. Think: the train would have to travel at reduced speed ( 15 mph, I think, according to the FRA ) coming from the east side. That would take about 10 minutes or so. Factor in another 10 minutes to conduct station business, and then another 10 minutes to return across the Isthmus to the route. Total time: 30 minutes, just to serve Madison. For those on the train, passing through Madison and going to a different stop, this half hour would be too long just to serve Madison. If the station is on the East Side, there would be less of a time penalty, and the station would be just as convenient as it would be on the near West side.

While there are tracks that go directly west of Madison, those are in no condition for passenger service, and traverse an ecologically protected area where there are several politically active organic farmers and "back-to-the-land" folks, and those who simply like "country living," so there would be considerable political opposition, which would then be used by others who don't want Madison to get any train service, because of political reasons ( can't have "those Madison liberals" getting something useful, you know).

Wisconsin State Rail Map

Too bad there isn't a good way to have the train enter Madison from the southeast (through McFarland), then up the isthmus to a stop at Monona Terrace, then up to a stop at the Madison Airport, then continue on to the north and west. Then there would be no back-up movements.

One option is to take the WSOR through Waukesha, Whitewater and then up through McFarland. It would miss the important areas in Lake Country and a mid-sized city at Watertown, but you'd hit downtown Waukesha, and could have a nice west suburban park-n-ride stop near the West Allis / New Berlin border. Would also get very close to the Janesville and Beloit markets.

Another option is to build a new 19 mile rail line from Waterloo southwest to McFarland. There is open country there. This is a much less likely option but would keep the train from seemingly swinging far south.

Regarding the Madison airport: That should be either THE Madison station or the north suburban stop. The infrastructure is all there already. Parking for suburbanites or people coming from around the region. Car rentals for people coming into Madison that need a car. A nice opportunity for multimodal transportation with airlines. And the train line to Minneapolis goes right by it. I think it is a no brainer to have a stop there.

However, I do feel there is a large market for people wanting to come to Madison, get off the train near downtown and/or campus, and walk where they need to go. A stop at the airport or even the near east side just wouldn't maximize the draw to the train for those customers. If Madison was the end of the line for the train, then a downtown station would be fine. But with the back-up move needed and the time it requires, it would significantly hurt the through passengers and those numbers.

Perhaps a near east side stop could have a streetcar or LRT connection to downtown and that would draw in more of those walking customers, but it would still add a hurdle and hurt their numbers. You could have a bus shuttle too; but personally I'm not riding the train so I can take a bus to my destination.

It could be possible that the four trains a day that are through trains utilize the Madison airport station and not downtown. And the six trains a day that terminate in Madison, use the downtown station and don't use the airport station. My worry with that solution is that too many customers will go to the wrong station.

I don't have the answer for Madison. It is a complex problem with competing interests from through passengers and the significant downtown / campus customers. That's why I'd love to see a solution like I proposed at the beginning, to have trains enter via McFarland. I think that would solve a lot of the extra time issue, and allow use for both stations for all trains going to/through Madison.

Kramerica said:

Wisconsin State Rail Map

Too bad there isn't a good way to have the train enter Madison from the southeast (through McFarland), then up the isthmus to a stop at Monona Terrace, then up to a stop at the Madison Airport, then continue on to the north and west. Then there would be no back-up movements.

One option is to take the WSOR through Waukesha, Whitewater and then up through McFarland. It would miss the important areas in Lake Country and a mid-sized city at Watertown, but you'd hit downtown Waukesha, and could have a nice west suburban park-n-ride stop near the West Allis / New Berlin border. Would also get very close to the Janesville and Beloit markets.

Another option is to build a new 19 mile rail line from Waterloo southwest to McFarland. There is open country there. This is a much less likely option but would keep the train from seemingly swinging far south.

Regarding the Madison airport: That should be either THE Madison station or the north suburban stop. The infrastructure is all there already. Parking for suburbanites or people coming from around the region. Car rentals for people coming into Madison that need a car. A nice opportunity for multimodal transportation with airlines. And the train line to Minneapolis goes right by it. I think it is a no brainer to have a stop there.

However, I do feel there is a large market for people wanting to come to Madison, get off the train near downtown and/or campus, and walk where they need to go. A stop at the airport or even the near east side just wouldn't maximize the draw to the train for those customers. If Madison was the end of the line for the train, then a downtown station would be fine. But with the back-up move needed and the time it requires, it would significantly hurt the through passengers and those numbers.

Perhaps a near east side stop could have a streetcar or LRT connection to downtown and that would draw in more of those walking customers, but it would still add a hurdle and hurt their numbers. You could have a bus shuttle too; but personally I'm not riding the train so I can take a bus to my destination.

It could be possible that the four trains a day that are through trains utilize the Madison airport station and not downtown. And the six trains a day that terminate in Madison, use the downtown station and don't use the airport station. My worry with that solution is that too many customers will go to the wrong station.

I don't have the answer for Madison. It is a complex problem with competing interests from through passengers and the significant downtown / campus customers. That's why I'd love to see a solution like I proposed at the beginning, to have trains enter via McFarland. I think that would solve a lot of the extra time issue, and allow use for both stations for all trains going to/through Madison.

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The line through McFarland & Whitewater, which is the ex- MILW, neé Milwaukee & Mississippi, is impractical and indirect for this use, though it would be much cheaper to upgrade this line instead of ** any ** new construction. It is the original ca. 1854 era route between Milwaukee and Madison, & there are reasons why more direct routes were built later on. It ought to be considered, if only to provide and illustrate options for service.

Kramerica said:

Regarding the Madison airport: That should be either THE Madison station or the north suburban stop. The infrastructure is all there already. Parking for suburbanites or people coming from around the region. Car rentals for people coming into Madison that need a car. A nice opportunity for multimodal transportation with airlines. And the train line to Minneapolis goes right by it. I think it is a no brainer to have a stop there.

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I’m sorry, but I have to strongly disagree. There is virtually no universe in which having Madison Airport be “the” station for Madison makes any sense. As an additional “suburban” stop, a la MKA, maybe. But for the main/only stop, no way. If you’re going to serve the state capital and the city with the largest university, you need to serve the city itself. If people have to rent a car when they get there, having traveled all the way from…Milwaukee (or wherever), then there’s no reason for them to even take the train in the first place. As for the idea that Madison Airport would ever offer any meaningful multimodal connectivity, name one city you can easily fly to from Madison that doesn’t have just as many (or probably a lot more) flights from Chicago, Milwaukee, or Minneapolis/St. Paul, which are cities that the passengers would mostly be coming from/going to.

The supposed main benefit of intercity rail, the one that advocates keep selling, and the one that really offers the best value, is that it travels from city center to city center, vs. flying which gets you out somewhere toward the edge. If it’s going to serve an airport, it should do so to replace a regional connection to a longer flight. Taking someone to an airport that would mostly fly those regional connections to other hubs really defeats the purpose.

Trogdor said:

I’m sorry, but I have to strongly disagree. There is virtually no universe in which having Madison Airport be “the” station for Madison makes any sense. As an additional “suburban” stop, a la MKA, maybe. But for the main/only stop, no way. If you’re going to serve the state capital and the city with the largest university, you need to serve the city itself. If people have to rent a car when they get there, having traveled all the way from…Milwaukee (or wherever), then there’s no reason for them to even take the train in the first place. As for the idea that Madison Airport would ever offer any meaningful multimodal connectivity, name one city you can easily fly to from Madison that doesn’t have just as many (or probably a lot more) flights from Chicago, Milwaukee, or Minneapolis/St. Paul, which are cities that the passengers would mostly be coming from/going to.

The supposed main benefit of intercity rail, the one that advocates keep selling, and the one that really offers the best value, is that it travels from city center to city center, vs. flying which gets you out somewhere toward the edge. If it’s going to serve an airport, it should do so to replace a regional connection to a longer flight. Taking someone to an airport that would mostly fly those regional connect Trions to other hubs really defeats the purpose.

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You both are making valid points - Trogdor & Kramerica

An airport intermodular station would solve parking going or arriving - there must be some sort of
frequent inexpensive transportation to get to/from the college campus or other business downtown ?
Rent-a-Car not an important aspect - but could be if driving a rental from another point and dropping
it off at MSN to take the train or a plane.
City center to city center origin and destination is a worthy goal.
The plane fare from MSN to MSP runs about $400 coach with 4 daily Delta flights
Granted Madison needs to consider only one railroad station but that isthmus between the lakes
Mendota and Monona with the existing track poses a problem - you just can't be backing switching
tracks to take in all the possible routes - those from the west dormant (rebuild?) those from the east
making strange trackage to go downtown yet exit to the north with existing tracks that most certainly
would be needed to be upgraded. Trying to make a schedule will require minimum turns and smooth
switching and agreements with WSOR.
How many daily trains ?
Part of that 2nd train from MSP to CHI via MKE and others ?
Or a Hiawatha extension ?
And then the funding while most will come from the Federal government
partial contributions from the state of Wisconsin - - -
opposed by conservative red state republicans who likely would provide their own transportation -
support from liberal democrats who would use and need this transportation -

So what the funding will provide will only be a partial answer.
There is a limit to how much trackage and a station that can be built in the confines of the
Madison city limits to make timely transit for any train.

No easy way out on this - But build it and they will (perhaps) come - - -
Global warming and all that will be rearing its ugly head making some of the decisions for us !

I doubt there'd be any backing involved in serving a station on the Isthmus at or near Monona Terrace. A train with an engine at each end, or an engine at one end and a cab car at the other, would come into Madison station from the north and simply change which end of the train is controlling. Brake test and a few other checks, maybe 15 minutes, not ridiculously long for an important stop especially if passengers are getting on and off as control is transferred from the south engine/cab to the north. Metra trains do it dozens of times every day.

For the benefit of those of us not familiar with Madison, is the former Milwaukee Road station on one of these alternatives? I used it once, but I think it was a cab ride from my hotel.

December 1975: Madison Amtrak agency station.


Also December 1975 - train control system near Madison station.

The old depot is still standing and is in the purple "Campus" alternative near the bottom of the map in the news article. South and slightly west of the Isthmus, Washington Ave. just north of Regent St. about 15 minutes' walk from the Capitol. For ease of finding it on the map, it contains a restaurant named Harvey House.

On one hand, the old depot is the nearest alternative to the University campus and still walkable to the Capitol. On the other, it's occupied by multiple businesses (possibly fully occupied; hard to tell from Google Maps alone). The Monona Terrace convention center is *much* closer to the Capitol, and setting aside a small portion for a train station doesn't displace a business but makes the convention center more useful.

If the University is a *significantly* bigger passenger draw than the Capitol and convention center, then the old depot makes sense. Otherwise my 2 cents is on Monona Terrace.

Willbridge said:

For the benefit of those of us not familiar with Madison, is the former Milwaukee Road station on one of these alternatives? I used it once, but I think it was a cab ride from my hotel.

December 1975: Madison Amtrak agency station.
View attachment 35416

Also December 1975 - train control system near Madison station.
View attachment 35417

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No. The ex- MILW station would require the longest distance going back and forth across the Isthmus, and is impractical compared to the locations east of the Capitol. Going back and forth across the isthmus should be avoided, as it is 15 mph track. 3 miles at 15 mph, plus another 3 miles at 15 mph, equals 20 minutes. Add another 10 minutes or so for station business, and that gives you 30 minutes, just to service the Madison ( Dane County ) stop. How impractical is that ? Also note there is little to no long term parking.

John Bredin said:

The old depot is still standing and is in the purple "Campus" alternative near the bottom of the map in the news article. South and slightly west of the Isthmus, Washington Ave. just north of Regent St. about 15 minutes' walk from the Capitol. For ease of finding it on the map, it contains a restaurant named Harvey House.

On one hand, the old depot is the nearest alternative to the University campus and still walkable to the Capitol. On the other, it's occupied by multiple businesses (possibly fully occupied; hard to tell from Google Maps alone). The Monona Terrace convention center is *much* closer to the Capitol, and setting aside a small portion for a train station doesn't displace a business but makes the convention center more useful.

If the University is a *significantly* bigger passenger draw than the Capitol and convention center, then the old depot makes sense. Otherwise my 2 cents is on Monona Terrace.

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Any traversing of the Isthmus should be avoided, IMO. The problem Madison has is that the tracks are located in what is called the Near East side, while any things that might attract visitors, are located on the Isthmus ( ie., Capitol Bldg. ) , and west of the Isthmus. Any location will have it's imperfections and flaws, and somebody won't be happy no matter which station location is chosen

Wouldn't the tracks on the isthmus be upgraded to higher speeds if that option were chose?

Looking back to the reasoning to Freeport Illinois and beyond wanting the Rockford service extended was to get people to O'Hare. I have to wonder if a similar effect on flights @ Madison might be in play (ok, not quite the same, the Western Illinois was to get people to O'Hare rather than flying to ORD via Iowa airports and whether a train to Madison might reduce some flights) where it looks like O'Hare is the biggest destination (with none to Milwaukee) - of course, one would have to know how many fliers are going only ORD-MSN vs through ORD from elsewhere. Minneapolis is the 4th busiest origin/destination, so same question.

Metra Electric Rider said:

Wouldn't the tracks on the isthmus be upgraded to higher speeds if that option were chose?

Looking back to the reasoning to Freeport Illinois and beyond wanting the Rockford service extended was to get people to O'Hare. I have to wonder if a similar effect on flights @ Madison might be in play (ok, not quite the same, the Western Illinois was to get people to O'Hare rather than flying to ORD via Iowa airports and whether a train to Madison might reduce some flights) where it looks like O'Hare is the biggest destination (with none to Milwaukee) - of course, one would have to know how many fliers are going only ORD-MSN vs through ORD from elsewhere. Minneapolis is the 4th busiest origin/destination, so same question.

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We would still have to deal with any applicable FRA or DOT standards regarding speed limits in built- up, developed, areas with numerous at- grade crossings. In Madison's case, there are something on the order of 3 dozen at- grade road crossings on the Isthmus, which would have to be traversed no matter what you did. There have been suggestions locally that the tracks could be elevated, to which I respond, "Good Luck attempting that -- the NIMBYs would materialize from thin air to oppose 'their' street being altered in some fashion." So, yes … in a way.

Then they could entertain sinking the tracks in a big ole ditch - "BUT" then there are those two lakes adjacent to that idea sinking it further into the NIMBY morass. I have seen way tooo much here in MSP with the SW Lite Rail tracks being sunk into a tunnel ditch - watch the funding go up into the atmosphere !

The campus and airport sites are out:

https://madison.com/news/local/gove...cle_530b0d9e-b15e-11ee-84bc-1b08f3dd6d57.html

Is this service going to be a branch of the existing CN route that the Empire Builder uses? Are they planning to run through trains to the Twin Cities or just terminate in Madison? Looking at open Railway Maps, it seems that there's a branch line that turns off the Empire Builder route at Watertown, approaches Madison form the northeast, runs through the Isthmus, and then heads west croiss country along the Wisconsin River to Prairie du Chien and the tracks along the Mississippi, where it can turn north and rejoin the Empire Builder route at La Crosse. I wouldn't be soo keen about putting a station in the Isthmus, as the station will need to accommodate auto traffic dropping off and picking up passengers as well as pedestrians. I suspect that the downtown area in the Isthmus has enough traffic already, one doesn't need a busy train station to further gum things up. They should probably also have at least one suburban stop on both sides of downtown to divert some of that auto traffic. But I know from my experience with MARC, having a suburban stop doesn't divert all the auto traffic. We had West Baltimore, Halethorpe, and the BWI station, yet Baltimore Penn is still clogged with autos (including mine!) dropping people off and picking them up.