Sunset East of New Orleans: Kiss of Death?

Ok, up until now I've had faith the Sunset will run again to Orlando. I was hoping it would because I was looking forward to ride it for the first time -- in fact, I had tickets to go from Orlando to LA in December 2005, and got that trip re-funded.

Anyhow, I always thought they would restore it... until NOW. Why?

Well, I was on the Empire Builder today between Chicago and Milwaukee. They seemed to put up more posters around the train (you know, the ones in the lounge car and at the bottom of the sleepers and coaches that always seem to get swiped). Anyhow, the Sunset posters I had seen up until this point, had all said "Orlando to Los Angeles". Well, the new version says "Los Angeles to New Orleans"... still with the same picture of the train going through the orange grove.

Just a subtle thing, but something I noticed. WHY print up new posters like that if they are planning to restore service anytime soon?

Kinda sad.

rtabern said:

Well, I was on the Empire Builder today between Chicago and Milwaukee. They seemed to put up more posters around the train (you know, the ones in the lounge car and at the bottom of the sleepers and coaches that always seem to get swiped). Anyhow, the Sunset posters I had seen up until this point, had all said "Orlando to Los Angeles". Well, the new version says "Los Angeles to New Orleans"... still with the same picture of the train going through the orange grove.
Just a subtle thing, but something I noticed. WHY print up new posters like that if they are planning to restore service anytime soon?

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i've noticed this as well (in chicago), and there are other subtle changes as well. for example, if you look in october's system timetable, they start tabulating the mileage of the route from new orleans instead of orlando as it was in the previous timetable. the timecards in stations across the US also now no longer include orlando and jacksonville as prominent "cities served" on the front cover.

of course, i could also just be a little paranoid here.

whether or not the sunset itself is ever extended back to florida isn't a huge interest for me personally, but if not, amtrak really needs to connect florida to points west with something more efficient than the crescent all the way up in DC. if i want to travel to orlando today, amtrak actually suggests i head up to chicago, down to washington, and catch one of the silver service trains. i think i'll catch a silver aircraft instead.

this is a massive hole in the national network -- and actually, a gulf coast day train would be a great addition to the network if there are reasonable connections in NOL and/or JAX. or (although still a little inconvenient), a new route from ATL to JAX and points south. the truth is that local traffic in the panhandle will always be light with I-10 offering faster travel than anything amtrak/CSXT can offer, but a gulf coast train reopens the southwestern US, texas, and hey, even memphis and mississippi to florida vacations via rail.

i wonder if there is anything we can actually do to effect change along these lines other than sending letters to amtrak or sending monies into NARP's coffers. suggestions anyone? here in texas, a grassroots organization saved the texas eagle when no one else was interested. perhaps a similar model here can restore gulf coast service, and in so doing, reconnect the southern half of the US back to florida via passenger rail.

-- eliyahu

austin, tx

I have probably missed quite a few posts on the New Orleans to Orlando train service... but I simply don't understand why America has still to repair a rail line after such a long time?

Is it simply that there is no great demand for rail freight between NOL to JAX, and it's not worth the cost of repair, or is it the damamage done was so severe, that the technical difficulties are too great?

Ed B)

THE RAIL LINE HAS BEEN COMPLETELY REPAIRED OR REBUILT, 100%, FOR MANY MONTHS NOW. Amtrak has been grossly abusing the "excuse" that the stations haven't been restored to justify not resuming service, but that is a bogus excuse, because there are "station stops" in the Amtrak system that are nothing more than a short patch of level ground where a passenger can climb on or off of a train. The cause of the continuing gap in service by Sunset between New Orleans and Orlando is a lack of moral fiber on the part of Amtrak administration. It is NOT because the rails remain broken. From one side of Amtrak's corporate "mouth" we hear "Sunset east of NOL has NOT been cancelled". From the other side of that corporate mouth come the route advertisements mentioned in these recent posts, which clearly have removed mention of anything east of NOL. Amtrak administration's pants are on fire and their noses are growing very long indeed.

caravanman said:

I have probably missed quite a few posts on the New Orleans to Orlando train service... but I simply don't understand why America has still to repair a rail line after such a long time?Is it simply that there is no great demand for rail freight between NOL to JAX, and it's not worth the cost of repair, or is it the damamage done was so severe, that the technical difficulties are too great?

Ed B)

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CSX, the private railroad corporation that owns the rail line (built originally by corporate predecessors in the 1880's) has completely repaired the rail line at a cost of about $300,000,000 of their own and insurance company money with no government assistance whatsoever. It has been fully restored since sometime in March, 2006. According to some people, it is in better condition than it has ever been. The repairs are by no means temporary, either. The longest bridge knocked out, about two miles long at Bay St. Louis, Mississippi, was replaced with new concrete girders. It was in fact reopened about the same time the state got around to letting the contract for the design and replacement of the parallel highway bridge, which will probably be another year to completion.

One of the excuses used by Amtrak was that CSX had sold the Mobile station and property to a developer. In was reported in the Mobile paper that the sale had a provision that the developer provide replacement station facilities.

The blame for lack of restoration lies entirely with Amtrak.

George

caravanman said:

I have probably missed quite a few posts on the New Orleans to Orlando train service... but I simply don't understand why America has still to repair a rail line after such a long time?Is it simply that there is no great demand for rail freight between NOL to JAX, and it's not worth the cost of repair, or is it the damamage done was so severe, that the technical difficulties are too great?

Ed B)

Click to expand...

George Harris said:

CSX, the private railroad corporation that owns the rail line (built originally by corporate predecessors in the 1880's) has completely repaired the rail line at a cost of about $300,000,000 of their own and insurance company money with no government assistance whatsoever. It has been fully restored since sometime in March, 2006. According to some people, it is in better condition than it has ever been. The repairs are by no means temporary, either. The longest bridge knocked out, about two miles long at Bay St. Louis, Mississippi, was replaced with new concrete girders. It was in fact reopened about the same time the state got around to letting the contract for the design and replacement of the parallel highway bridge, which will probably be another year to completion.
One of the excuses used by Amtrak was that CSX had sold the Mobile station and property to a developer. In was reported in the Mobile paper that the sale had a provision that the developer provide replacement station facilities.

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Well George, you seem to make a great ombudsman for rail passengers rights. Do you think there is someone in Washington that would commit to an answer one way or another as to whether the Sunset will run (or busses) or will the City continue on to Jacksonville (which seems to make more sense.?) I've personally witnessed too many people rudely awakened at 3 a.m. or later in New Orleans only to be told that #2 was terminating in NOLA and the bus was your only choice to go further east. Is there not an Amtrak PR Department that has ANYONE who will give a definitive answer. I'm sure if such a person exists that you might know who he/she might be. Someone who has paid premium dollars for first class service deserves better service; I strongly believe that all the overtime and added expense (busses, refunds, crew's layover in New Orleans for two or more days) is a big factor in all the foot dragging on the eastern end of the Sunset.

George Harris said:

The blame for lack of restoration lies entirely with Amtrak.
George

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(edited to try to fix who was being quoted on what and from where -AmtrakWPK)

The problem given the current SB schedule is that it takes approximately 20 hours to go from NOL to ORL. Right not the CONO arrives in NOL at 3:30. After servicing and fueling they would be leaving NOL around 4:30. That puts arrival in Orlando at the ever popular Midnight. Assuming that arrival time it'd take another hour to hour and a half to deadhead back to Sanford. Crew's off duty at approximately 1:30. Get the train in for servicing and then back in the yard at around 10-11. That's an awfully rough schedule for a crew. There's also the fact that the equipment would have been on the road for approximately four (from Eagle) to six days (Sunset Ltd). That's a pretty long time to be on the road without getting service, and a pretty short time to service it and turn it around.

It seems clear that the track repairs have been done, and the rails join up again.. at least we know now it is an Amtrak issue, rather than a Katrina issue.

Ed B)

I think the biggest factor is freight congestion between NOL and Florida. It's so late, even 1 or 2 days late, and Amtrak doesn't want to continue it. Also Amtrak doesn't have enough spare trainsets to continue to make up the tardy schedule.

This becomes an issue espeially if the Cardinal returns to using Superliner trainsets.

battalion51 said:

The problem given the current SB schedule is that it takes approximately 20 hours to go from NOL to ORL. Right not the CONO arrives in NOL at 3:30. After servicing and fueling they would be leaving NOL around 4:30. That puts arrival in Orlando at the ever popular Midnight.

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I think you must have somehow plugged in an extra 12 hours.

If you go back to an early afternoon departure, you have just about reconstituted the Gulf Wind, but somewhat slower. Looking at the 2004 schedule:

17 hours New Orleans to Jacksonville, about the same in both directions

3h15m Jacksonville to Orlando, again about the same in both directions.

So, yes to 20 hours.

5:00 pm leave New Orleans

8:50 pm leave Mobile AL (CST)

7:00 am leave Tallahassee (EST)

11:00 am arrive Jacksonville

11:30 am leave Jacksonville

2:45 pm arrive Orlando

3:15 pm leave Orlando

6:30 pm arrive Jacksonville

7:00 pm leave Jacksonville

10:20 pm leave Tallahassee (EST)

6:30 am leave Mobile AL (CST)

11:00 amarrive New Orleans

This is obviously not a practical same day turn around at Orlando, so why not go back to running the train to Miami? This gives you a nice Jacksonville to Miami day train coupled with a decent but somewhat slow night train betweeen Jacksonville and New Orleans that also serves the Mississippi Gulf Coast at decent hours. For a Chicago to Florida train, compared to the City of Miami, we should probably not even talk about it. It would be just short of 48 hours Chicago to Miami. That time was beat in the 1920's.

As to the congestion between Jacksonville and New Orleans: At the least, a few more sidings are needed between Flomaton and Tallahassee, and signals so that they could run faster than 59 mph through here would also help.

George

battalion51 said:

This becomes an issue espeially if the Cardinal returns to using Superliner trainsets.

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Hardly, Amtrak has more Superliner cars back in service now than it did back when they were still running the Sunset full length and the Cardinal with Superliners. And with Diner Lite coming online, that would solve the issue of not having enough diners/lounges to go around, as it wouldn't matter any more. That was where they used to run short before, was on the diners and lounges.

George Harris said:

If you go back to an early afternoon departure, you have jsut about reconstituted the Gulf Wind, but somewhat slower. Looking at the 2004 schedule:
17 hours New Orleans to Jacksonville, about the same in both directions

34h15m Jacksonville to Orlando, again about the same in both directions.

So, yes to 20 hours.

5:00 pm leave New Orleans

8:50 pm leave Mobile AL (CST)

7:00 am leave Tallahassee (EST)

11:00 am arrive Jacksonville

11:30 am leave Jacksonville

2:45 pm arrive Orlando

3:15 pm leave Orlando

6:30 pm arrive Jacksonville

7:00 pm leave Jacksonville

10:20 pm leave Tallahassee (EST)

6:30 am leave Mobile AL (CST)

11:00 amarrive New Orleans

Click to expand...

And let's not forget that part of the padding and fluff in that schedule isn't because of CSX screwing the train, it's to help recover from the UP disasters.

So they might actually be able to trim some of the fat off that schedule if need be.

AlanB said:

And let's not forget that part of the padding and fluff in that schedule isn't because of CSX screwing the train, it's to help recover from the UP disasters.
So they might actually be able to trim some of the fat off that schedule if need be.

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True. The Gulf Wind in the 50's was abpit 15 or 16 hours NO to Jax, and the speed limits on large segments of the ex L&N part were lower then than they are now. (never more than 70 mph anywhere, and either 55 mph or 50 mph east of Flomaton, and most of the gulf coast drawbridges were limited to 15 mph.)

Bottom line seems to be that Amtrak doesn't want to do it, isn't interested in doing it, and is more than willing to lie about it to everybody in order to keep from running Sunset again east of NOL. Somehow we need a big enough political stink about it (which it seems to me that the cities and towns - and the associated state governments- and all of those newspapers and tv stations serving those places, which are now NOT being served by Sunset that WERE being served by it SHOULD be able and willing to do), that Amtrak cannot get away with continuing to shovel the fertilizer through the PR department to all of us while also saying "What fertilizer?" Because right now, fertilizer seems to be what they're selling us.

AmtrakWPK said:

Bottom line seems to be that Amtrak doesn't want to do it, isn't interested in doing it, and is more than willing to lie about it to everybody in order to keep from running Sunset again east of NOL. Somehow we need a big enough political stink about it (which it seems to me that the cities and towns - and the associated state governments- and all of those newspapers and tv stations serving those places, which are now NOT being served by Sunset that WERE being served by it SHOULD be able and willing to do), that Amtrak cannot get away with continuing to shovel the fertilizer through the PR department to all of us while also saying "What fertilizer?" Because right now, fertilizer seems to be what they're selling us.

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but given previous schedules for the sunset along the panhandle, and the lack of local traffic for intrastate travel, can we reasonably expect online communities to push for its restoration? even mobile hasn't pushed very hard for renewed service along these lines. perhaps what is needed here is a new daytime run connecting through to JAX, ORL, or MIA with focus on compressing the schedule to be as fast as possible. shaving an hour here and there could bring big dividends in bringing customers to such a train since your biggest competition here isn't air travel so much as I-10, which is far faster and more convenient than the old sunset carding.

i suppose that's why i've remained negative in believing sufficient pressure would be brought to bear on amtrak and the florida congressional delegation. unlike the texas eagle, which has been reasonably frequented by texans for travel to fort worth, and also used as an additional local in illinois, this section of the sunset limited never really generated much local traffic within the panhandle, or even from florida to NOL. so i don't really see the equivalent of TEMPO arising from the dust.

can you think of how customers outside florida/alabama/NOL can bring their message that restoration of rail travel from NOL to florida brings potential traffic from the southwest that just is going elsewhere at the moment? perhaps that story isn't backed up by amtrak's experts? or am i offbase (hopefully) in saying online communities in the panhandle aren't bringing pressure to bear here?

-- eliyahu

austin, tx

AlanB said:

And let's not forget that part of the padding and fluff in that schedule isn't because of CSX screwing the train, it's to help recover from the UP disasters.
So they might actually be able to trim some of the fat off that schedule if need be.

Click to expand...

alan: let's assume for the moment that such a reconstituted gulf wind was indeed in the offing. based on what little information is available about the rebuilt mainline, how much time do you think could be shaved here? within texas, few people really consider the sunset a viable form for transport east of san antonio given the massive amount of padding in the schedule (fifteen hours to cover a little over 550 miles from SAS to NOL?!) when I-10 and US90 offers much quicker and convenient travel.

i very much want to see this happen, if only for selfish reasons that would enable us to take the trains to florida. but with good road and unreliable OTP -- yes, i know we've been doing well lately on the sunset, but nonetheless -- rail is a hard story to sell. better timekeeping and a faster carding, though, could help to get folks back on the rails along the gulf coast. even a train with just amfleet coaches offering fair connections to the CoNO, SL, and crescent in NOL could be a winner, but travel time is vital to sell in the southern travel market.

-- eliyahu

austin, tx

I'm not sure if I will be saying this in the right way: but I sometimes wonder if Amtrak is weary of dealing with CSX and doesn't want to get in bed with them again(especially on this route). Remember, the Sunset runs on two of Amtrak's least friendly and least dependable railroad companies...UP and CSX. Is it possible that Amtrak looks at the heavy amount of traffic on CSX and does't want to deal with the whole issue??

Obviously something is holding them back...and it may be a combination of things. We just don't know what. How I would love to be a mouse in the corner at Amtrak HQ when routing discussions are going on!!

eliyahu said:

AlanB said:

And let's not forget that part of the padding and fluff in that schedule isn't because of CSX screwing the train, it's to help recover from the UP disasters.
So they might actually be able to trim some of the fat off that schedule if need be.

Click to expand...

alan: let's assume for the moment that such a reconstituted gulf wind was indeed in the offing. based on what little information is available about the rebuilt mainline, how much time do you think could be shaved here? within texas, few people really consider the sunset a viable form for transport east of san antonio given the massive amount of padding in the schedule (fifteen hours to cover a little over 550 miles from SAS to NOL?!) when I-10 and US90 offers much quicker and convenient travel.

Click to expand...

I'm hardly the best expert on what would be possible in terms of speeding things up. However, IIRC, prior to the huge amounts of padding inserted into the schedule 4 or 5 years ago, Amtrak used to card the Sunset from ORL to NOL about 2 hours faster than it was running prior to Katrina. Back in 2000 it use to leave Orlando at 5:50 PM and get to NOL at 11:45 AM, for a run time of just under 18 hours. Just prior to Katrina it was leaving ORL at 1:45 PM and getting into NOL at 9:20 AM, for a run time of 19 1/2 hours.

AlanB said:

I'm hardly the best expert on what would be possible in terms of speeding things up. However, IIRC, prior to the huge amounts of padding inserted into the schedule 4 or 5 years ago, Amtrak used to card the Sunset from ORL to NOL about 2 hours faster than it was running prior to Katrina. Back in 2000 it use to leave Orlando at 5:50 PM and get to NOL at 11:45 AM, for a run time of just under 18 hours. Just prior to Katrina it was leaving ORL at 1:45 PM and getting into NOL at 9:20 AM, for a run time of 19 1/2 hours.

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hmmm. well, i suppose under eighteen hours is better than nearly twenty, but it would only take me around ten hours to drive that distance, and that's being conservative. of course, there are other stops along the way here that could attract traffic from the west other than just orlando: biloxi, gulfport, pensacola, etc.

how has rail fared in the past when driving offered such a huge time advantage? for overnight runs between major endpoints i could see a different story, but for a daytrain?

-- eliyahu

austin, tx

If Amtrak reinstates service between New Orleans and Orlando, it should be daily service with a schedule that can be maintained on a timely basis. Unfortunately in recent years, the tri weekly Sunset has not been anywhere near reliable. I have used the train a number of times between Jacksonville and New Orleans. An overnight train from Jacksonville to New Orleans and vis versa is preferable and could attract some business travelers, if it was reliable. The train should be scheduled to connect with both the City of New Orleans and the Sunset. There were a lot of passengers connecting with CNO from Florida to Chicago and vv when the schedule made a decent connection. The State of Florida needs to provide some funding for Amtrak service as it generates a lot of tourist dollars that are spent in the state.

jphjaxfl said:

If Amtrak reinstates service between New Orleans and Orlando, it should be daily service with a schedule that can be maintained on a timely basis. Unfortunately in recent years, the tri weekly Sunset has not been anywhere near reliable. I have used the train a number of times between Jacksonville and New Orleans. An overnight train from Jacksonville to New Orleans and vis versa is preferable and could attract some business travelers, if it was reliable. The train should be scheduled to connect with both the City of New Orleans and the Sunset. There were a lot of passengers connecting with CNO from Florida to Chicago and vv when the schedule made a decent connection. The State of Florida needs to provide some funding for Amtrak service as it generates a lot of tourist dollars that are spent in the state.

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Everybody in FL,AL,MS and LA needs to send a letter to your US congressman or Senator! in support of adding the SL back between NO and Orl!

the problem with speeding up the Sunset is the somewhat round about way the tracks run. Also, for people not interested in going to New Orleans itself, you can make it by bus between Houston and Mississippi Gulf Coast points and even Mobile faster than the train can get you to New Orleans. Then there is the 103 miles by rail between Mobile and Pensacola due to going up to Flomaton AL before turning south versus about 55 miles by I-10. And, of course if you are going between New Orleans and Orlando you do not go to Jacksonville on the way, but the train does.

However, even with all these negatives, when the operation was realonably dependable the train carried a reasonably good ridership.

Back to the Gulf Wind: The following is from 1956:

Eastbound

5:30 pm Lv New Orleans

9:10 pm Lv Mobile

12:03 am Lv Pensacola (CST)

5:45 am Ar Tallahassee (EST)

9:15 am Ar Jacksonville (Union Station - not Amtrak's)

15 hours 45 minutes for 617 miles, and that includes switching at three locations.

The train left New Orleans combined with the Piedmont Limited and was divided at Flomaton AL. Diners were detached at Mobile and added at Tallahassee, and we are talking about mid train, not tacked on the end because this train carried a round end observation.

Westbound

5:15 pm Lv Jacksonville

8:35 pm Lv Tallahassee (EST)

12:30 am Ar Pensacola (CST)

3:20 am Ar Mobile

7:20 am Ar New Orleans

15 hours 5 minutes, again with switching at three locations. Between Flomaton and New Orleans it was combined with the Piedmont Limited again. Sometime later, the westbound train arriving in New Orleans was actually three trains, the Gulf Wind, the Piedmont Limited from Atlanta and New York, and the Pan American from Cincinatti, a situation that lasted all the way up until Amtak day.

With addition of enough new sidings to avoid lengthy delays due to freight trains, this run time should be achievable today.

George

George, do you happen to know what the MSP was between Tallahassee and Flomaton was? I'm almost willing to bet it's a lot higher than the 59 MPH the Tallahassee (west of TLH), P&A, and P&D Subs are rated for these days.

Kinda off the topic of this thread, but I'm curious to know: How'd you ride the Empire Builder between Chicago and Milwaukee?