[sechs]

The Caltrain board voted for several changes to close the railroad's budget gap. Among them, an increase in parking fees, a ~24% increase the cost of the corporate "Go Pass," and the elimination of eight midday trains (four in each direction).
http://www.caltrain....es_changes.html


Caltrain also recently moved the horns back to the top of its locomotives and cab cars. Apparently, the sound produced from the underside location did not comply with FRA standards. They were moved to the undersides to address noise concerns. Instead, Caltrain will begin installing regulator valves to reduce the horns' volume.
http://www.caltrain....7_29_horns.html
http://www.caltrain....7_31_horns.html

[DET63]

Quote

The Caltrain board voted for several changes to close the railroad's budget gap. Among them, an increase in parking fees, a ~24% increase the cost of the corporate "Go Pass," and the elimination of eight midday trains (four in each direction).

Nothing like trimming back service just when energy and economic issues might make the train attractive for more passengers.

From the second link in the OP:

Quote

“We have to balance neighborhood concerns against the need for safety,” said Caltrain Deputy CEO Chuck Harvey. “It is important for people to remember that the engineers do not sound the horn gratuitously. They sound the horn to save lives and to comply with FRA requirements. We ask for the public’s patience while we attempt to adjust the horns.”

This will come as news to Volkris, who seems to believe that trains sound their horns primarily to please foamers.

From the last link in the OP:

Quote

Caltrain moved the horns from underneath the trains to the top of the trains when it was discovered that the horns could not produce the sequential blasts required by federal law. This increased the volume and the range of the sound.

So putting the horns down low meant they couldn't go "toot-toot-tweet-toot"?

This post has been edited by DET63: 11 August 2009 - 08:28 PM

[sechs]

To be honest, I'm not sure that those midday trains will be greatly missed. It will be inconvenient, and riders will be lost; but, I really don't expect it to be a lot of people. Even when the economy was good, I never saw one of those trains more than half full.

As for the horns.... I don't even know what they're talking about. I do know that the horns are now much louder and seem to have different tonal quality. I used to be able to easily tell the difference between a Caltrain train and a UP freight running on the tracks near my house; now I can't.

[Green Maned Lion]

sechs, on Tue, Aug 11, 2009, 12:20 AM, said:

To be honest, I'm not sure that those midday trains will be greatly missed. It will be inconvenient, and riders will be lost; but, I really don't expect it to be a lot of people. Even when the economy was good, I never saw one of those trains more than half full.

As for the horns.... I don't even know what they're talking about. I do know that the horns are now much louder and seem to have different tonal quality. I used to be able to easily tell the difference between a Caltrain train and a UP freight running on the tracks near my house; now I can't.

You're very much mistaken. One of the major points in deciding whether the train works for you is knowing it can and will be there when you need it. Cut back the last train out at night, the one that often runs with a quarter load. Ridership will drop drastically. Because people ride that train? No. Because them knowing that train exists makes them confident about using the train. They know a late train is available, should things happen and they need to get home late.

[Neil_M]

Green Maned Lion, on Wed, Aug 12, 2009, 10:32 PM, said:

You're very much mistaken. One of the major points in deciding whether the train works for you is knowing it can and will be there when you need it. Cut back the last train out at night, the one that often runs with a quarter load. Ridership will drop drastically. Because people ride that train? No. Because them knowing that train exists makes them confident about using the train. They know a late train is available, should things happen and they need to get home late.

I know this might cause the earth to stop spinning, but.....
GML is right. Something like Caltrain needs to be frequent enough that you don't really need to use a timetable to plan your travels.
If there are huge gaps in the service then it becomes less attractive to passengers.
Miss a train and there is another one in 20 minutes, 30 minutes or an hour and you aren't too bothered. Miss one and there is a 4 hour gap and its not so good.....

[sechs]

You won't need a timetable after the schedule change any more than you do now. In fact, it will be easier.

Instead of a train coming every sixty or thirty or thirty-two or twenty minutes, depending on where you are on the line, it will come once an hour at midday. Doesn't that mean that people won't be too bothered?

My thought is that the person from New Jersey and the person from London are the ones who are mistaken. It seems clear to me that neither of you even read what the changes were. It's not as if they're cutting all weekend service -- which Caltrain really did do a few years ago during a major track project.

[Neil_M]

sechs, on Thu, Aug 13, 2009, 05:03 AM, said:

Instead of a train coming every sixty or thirty or thirty-two or twenty minutes, depending on where you are on the line, it will come once an hour at midday. Doesn't that mean that people won't be too bothered?

Once an hour at midday? So just the one train then?

[John Bredin]

Neil_M, on Thu, Aug 13, 2009, 04:39 AM, said:

sechs, on Thu, Aug 13, 2009, 05:03 AM, said:

Instead of a train coming every sixty or thirty or thirty-two or twenty minutes, depending on where you are on the line, it will come once an hour at midday. Doesn't that mean that people won't be too bothered?

Once an hour at midday? So just the one train then?

You have just proven sechs' point that you didn't check out the timetable change at Caltrain's website.

Between 10am and 2pm ("midday"), there is right now a train every half-hour in each direction. After the schedule change, there will be a train every hour in each direction during the same 10a-2p period. In other words, eight round-trips during the mid-day period in question now, four after the change, which is what Caltrain announced.

I note that here in Chicago, only one of Metra's lines (the Electric) has more than one hourly round-trip during the same 10a-2p mid-day period.

[Green Maned Lion]

Guest_George Harris_*, on Mon, Aug 17, 2009, 09:14 PM, said:

Generally Caltrain has ridership that many commuter services can only dream about. Weekends are hourly all stops, but still usually have fairly good ridership. Their route is pretty well urbanized from end to end, and there are big urban areas on both ends so there are a lot of people both on and off at most stops along the way. (Sorry San Fracisco, but San Jose has a larger population within the city limits.) Caught the 8:15 am (first train out from SF) this past Saturday, and there must have been over 200 people standing there when the gate opened.

The first train out is 8:15? That's nuts. NJT's first train out on the ex-NY&LB is 4:30 AM- which is a reasonable- if a tad late- time for reverse commuter service to start. The first train heading into the city departs Long Branch at 3:59- which I think is a bit late- I miss the 3:15 train out of Long Branch. I know California is trying, but they sure don't know how to run an effective commuter railroad.

If I was running it, it would run like the LIRR- all night long.

[tp49]

Green Maned Lion, on Mon, Aug 17, 2009, 09:23 PM, said:

Guest_George Harris_*, on Mon, Aug 17, 2009, 09:14 PM, said:

Generally Caltrain has ridership that many commuter services can only dream about. Weekends are hourly all stops, but still usually have fairly good ridership. Their route is pretty well urbanized from end to end, and there are big urban areas on both ends so there are a lot of people both on and off at most stops along the way. (Sorry San Fracisco, but San Jose has a larger population within the city limits.) Caught the 8:15 am (first train out from SF) this past Saturday, and there must have been over 200 people standing there when the gate opened.

The first train out is 8:15? That's nuts. NJT's first train out on the ex-NY&LB is 4:30 AM- which is a reasonable- if a tad late- time for reverse commuter service to start. The first train heading into the city departs Long Branch at 3:59- which I think is a bit late- I miss the 3:15 train out of Long Branch. I know California is trying, but they sure don't know how to run an effective commuter railroad.

If I was running it, it would run like the LIRR- all night long.

During the week the first train out of San Francisco is at 0455 and out of San Jose at 0430. On weekends the first train out of San Francisco is at 0815 as George mentioned. First train out of San Jose is at 0700 on Saturday and 0800 on Sunday.

Caltrain is an effective commuter railroad for what it does in the area it serves. The culture out here wouldn't support an all night long operation like the LIRR which took me a while to learn after I moved out here.

[George Harris]

Green Maned Lion, on Mon, Aug 17, 2009, 10:23 PM, said:

. I know California is trying, but they sure don't know how to run an effective commuter railroad.

Caltrain is NOT one of the recent start ups like Los Angeles Metrollink, or even the Altamont Express. This line has been running commuter trains for a long time, possibly over a century. I do know for certain for over 60 years. There volume took a huge hit in the 60's ? ? when the freeway version of US 101 opened. Before that the main highway between San Francisco and San Jose had multiple traffic lights and a 45 mph maximum speed limit, according to some long time residents I know.

The line is 47.3 miles long, double track throughout, 136 lb welded rail throughout, 79 mph speed limit, curves permitting, which means for most of the distance other than the first few miles out of San Francisco and the last couple miles before San Jose. The 4 stop "baby bullets" make the run in one hour and the all-stops locals take 90 minutes. Even the all stops locals still beat the best you can do on public transportation otherwise. Oh, yes, there are three rush hour weekdays only trains that go further out to Gilroy. It is a very effective system.

[sechs]

tp49, on Mon, Aug 17, 2009, 09:42 PM, said:

The culture out here wouldn't support an all night long operation

I'll also note that it's not culture, but economics that prevent all-night service. Except for events, there isn't the ridership to justify such service.

Practically the entire route is paralleled by buses, which run all night. These are well patronized -- and much cheaper to run.

[Green Maned Lion]

sechs, on Fri, Aug 28, 2009, 11:56 PM, said:

tp49, on Mon, Aug 17, 2009, 09:42 PM, said:

The culture out here wouldn't support an all night long operation

I'll also note that it's not culture, but economics that prevent all-night service. Except for events, there isn't the ridership to justify such service.

Practically the entire route is paralleled by buses, which run all night. These are well patronized -- and much cheaper to run.

No, it is the culture. Its the culture that makes running them economical. NYCTA and LIRR run all-night-service because NYC is truly the city that never sleeps (In fact, so used to NYC I am, it floored me that cities actually do have dead hours!) and as such, it is the city with ridership that never sleeps. I'm not saying there are packed trains all night long at 5 minute intervals, but even at 3 in the morning you can find a downtown Manhattan subway with standing room only in most or all cars- especially the A train.

[AlanB]

sechs, on Fri, Aug 28, 2009, 11:56 PM, said:

tp49, on Mon, Aug 17, 2009, 09:42 PM, said:

The culture out here wouldn't support an all night long operation

I'll also note that it's not culture, but economics that prevent all-night service. Except for events, there isn't the ridership to justify such service.

Practically the entire route is paralleled by buses, which run all night. These are well patronized -- and much cheaper to run.

Actually buses typically cost far more to run than trains. In fact it costs Caltrain $1.20 in operating expenses to move a passenger one mile. Put that passenger on the train and it only cost them 27 cents in operating costs to move that passenger one mile. Those are Caltrain's 2007 numbers as reported to the National Transit Database.

[Neil_M]

Green Maned Lion, on Sat, Aug 29, 2009, 05:41 AM, said:

sechs, on Fri, Aug 28, 2009, 11:56 PM, said:

tp49, on Mon, Aug 17, 2009, 09:42 PM, said:

The culture out here wouldn't support an all night long operation

I'll also note that it's not culture, but economics that prevent all-night service. Except for events, there isn't the ridership to justify such service.

Practically the entire route is paralleled by buses, which run all night. These are well patronized -- and much cheaper to run.

No, it is the culture. Its the culture that makes running them economical. NYCTA and LIRR run all-night-service because NYC is truly the city that never sleeps (In fact, so used to NYC I am, it floored me that cities actually do have dead hours!) and as such, it is the city with ridership that never sleeps. I'm not saying there are packed trains all night long at 5 minute intervals, but even at 3 in the morning you can find a downtown Manhattan subway with standing room only in most or all cars- especially the A train.

So just because NYC has that level of service then everywhere else does as well?

Are they real passengers or just those homeless types you love so much?

[Neil_M]

Green Maned Lion, on Tue, Aug 18, 2009, 05:23 AM, said:

The first train out is 8:15? That's nuts. NJT's first train out on the ex-NY&LB is 4:30 AM- which is a reasonable- if a tad late- time for reverse commuter service to start. The first train heading into the city departs Long Branch at 3:59- which I think is a bit late- I miss the 3:15 train out of Long Branch. I know California is trying, but they sure don't know how to run an effective commuter railroad.

If I was running it, it would run like the LIRR- all night long.

But you don't. And we can see why!
Maybe those Californians are more laid back and have no need to be on train at 0315 in the morning. I pity anyone who feels the need to get up that early.

[jimhudson]

Neil_M, on Sat, Aug 29, 2009, 04:05 AM, said:

Green Maned Lion, on Tue, Aug 18, 2009, 05:23 AM, said:

The first train out is 8:15? That's nuts. NJT's first train out on the ex-NY&LB is 4:30 AM- which is a reasonable- if a tad late- time for reverse commuter service to start. The first train heading into the city departs Long Branch at 3:59- which I think is a bit late- I miss the 3:15 train out of Long Branch. I know California is trying, but they sure don't know how to run an effective commuter railroad.

If I was running it, it would run like the LIRR- all night long.

But you don't. And we can see why!
Maybe those Californians are more laid back and have no need to be on train at 0315 in the morning. I pity anyone who feels the need to get up that early.

Well Neil old chap,you see this country is so large that lots of folks that catch the train HAVE to get up @ ungodly hours to get to the station on time!Lots of pie in the sky folks expect their trains to arrive in their stop only in the daytime on a cool/clear and comfortable time with free parking and quadruple AGR points!yada!yada!yada!Californians are different than normal people,thats why they live there!LOL

[Neil_M]

jimhudson, on Sat, Aug 29, 2009, 03:57 PM, said:

Well Neil old chap,you see this country is so large that lots of folks that catch the train HAVE to get up @ ungodly hours to get to the station on time!Lots of pie in the sky folks expect their trains to arrive in their stop only in the daytime on a cool/clear and comfortable time with free parking and quadruple AGR points!yada!yada!yada!Californians are different than normal people,thats why they live there!LOL

Nobody needs to be on a train at 0315.

[AlanB]

Neil_M, on Sat, Aug 29, 2009, 12:53 PM, said:

jimhudson, on Sat, Aug 29, 2009, 03:57 PM, said:

Well Neil old chap,you see this country is so large that lots of folks that catch the train HAVE to get up @ ungodly hours to get to the station on time!Lots of pie in the sky folks expect their trains to arrive in their stop only in the daytime on a cool/clear and comfortable time with free parking and quadruple AGR points!yada!yada!yada!Californians are different than normal people,thats why they live there!LOL

Nobody needs to be on a train at 0315.

So let me see if I understand you correctly. You Brits have figured out how to stop fires from burning down people's homes between the hours of midnight and 5 AM. You've figured out how to keep people from getting sick or worse dying between those hours, such that you don't need doctors and nurses at hospitals during those hours. No need for those who staff the various resturants and stands to start the water boiling for tea and coffee for those workers who do leave for work at 5:00 AM or 6:00 AM. Many of the people who clean office buildings don't start work until 6:00 PM and finish up after 2:00 AM. They don't need your pity, but they do need a way home.

All of the people who do these things need to get to/from work often at odd hours over here, but somehow you guys have solved all those problems. Is that what you're saying?