Replying to Longest Amtrak train

Where are all the coach cars for these seriously extended eastern LD trains being proposed here supposed to come from? Amtrak has only 120 LD coach and 25 cafe/lounge Amfleet II cars available. Amtrak needs to order Viewliner LD coach and cafe/lounge cars, but that is likely years away (unfortunately).

For me, this was in an ideal world. Something like this could be reasonable, since it does not go over the total options limit. The coaches would have to be Viewliner 2 coaches, but I doubt that. I've heard people talking on here talking about Florida corridors as good uses for the Horizon cars once Illinois gets its bi-levels, since the demand will soon be there and it never gets too cold. So for any of the tack-on cars, I was thinking that it would be reasonable to use Horizons, so that no new equipment would have to be ordered.

Lake Shore Limited
Bag-dorm [NYP]
Sleeper [NYP]
Sleeper [NYP]
Sleeper [NYP]
Diner [NYP]
Cafe [NYP]
Coach [NYP]
Coach [NYP]
Coach [NYP]
Coach [NYP] -Seasonal
Coach [BOS]
Coach [BOS]
Cafe [BOS]
Sleeper [BOS]

You added a sleeper but took out a coach. If you had kept the coach, which Amtrak will probably do, then that would be fifteen cars. Suppose Amtrak did four seatings a meal for a 48-seat diner. That's 192 in total, so that could accomodate up to six sleepers. If there's a lot of coaches, Amtrak could still assign fiver sleepers to the LSL.
In the end, it is important to know how much demand there is for NYP/BOS-CHI. Does BOS warrant an additional sleeper? Is the current one sold out a lot?

You can't do 4 seatings in the diner, 3 is the max unless you want some really odd times. But normal would be 5:00 PM, 6:30 PM, & 8:00 PM. You really can't tighten things more than that. To get to 4 seatings you'd have to start serving dinner at 4:00 or 4:30 PM and even then you're looking at the last seating at around 9 PM. Way too late!

When I'm doing the math, I usually assume somewhere between 1.5 and 2 people per roomette and 2 per bedroom (I've run the math with both 2/2 and with 1.5/2, and this gives a little more flexibility).

Mea culpa on dropping an LSL coach.

As to the sleepers...that's actually my bad. I'd assumed it was one in 25 (that's about what I tend to come up with, numbers-wise, in other discussions) that was to be out for inspections, plus the protect cars.

On the FEC: What has just come to mind is the pain that ticketing the Silver Star will be: You'll probably have a very odd booking situation if you add cars...how do you handle the LD coaches? Ticket as a separate coach bucket set (or apply an accommodation charge) or lock to high bucket JAX-MIA? Run as D-only JAX-MIA and force folks to corridor seats? And if you've got some sort of BC on the train...that would be four classes of service (Sleeper, LD coach, corridor BC, corridor coach) on one train. Specific to the Florida service, I would be inclined to expect the Horizons to end up here per some earlier discussions about what they wear well in terms of climate and so forth.*

On the LD coaches: I'm at least mentally pulling a few cars off of Midwest or California service and replacing them with bilevels, or off of Hiawatha service when those Talgos come out. Implicit in this assumption is that a few corridor coaches are going to get redone and added to LD service at some point (even if the move is something as simple as moving 2-2 BC cars to the Adirondack in lieu of the "real" LD coaches).*

*On both of these points, depending on demand patterns and so forth it might be possible to assign a single "short distance" coach to one or more of the LD trains.

448/449 only needs a bag BOS-ALB, but if switching is to be avoided at ALB, run it BOS-CHI and only use one car as a working bag, as is currently done. The BOS section doesn't need a bag/dorm for an LSA and a coach attendant. Aside from the larger crew on the NYP section, you'd probably want to run the bag/dorm to NYP to run it to HIA for maintenance.

Yes, Donctor, you guys are right that Boston doesn't need a bag-dorm, since any crew stationed to the Boston Dinette could just use the normal bag-dorm until Albany.

My envisions for LSL consist in the future:

P42DC
P42DC
P42DC (variable)
Bag-Dorm (BOS)
Sleeper (BOS)
Sleeper (BOS) (variable)
Dinette (BOS)
Coach (BOS)
Coach (BOS)
Coach (BOS) (variable)
Coach (NYP)
Coach (NYP)
Coach (NYP)
Coach (NYP) (variable)
Lounge (NYP)
Diner (NYP)
Sleeper (NYP)
Sleeper (NYP)
Sleeper (NYP)
Sleeper (NYP) (variable)
Bag-Dorm (NYP)

In a high-demand period, there could be 18 cars west of ALB! Anybody want to make a computer animation of such a consist?

So, how long was the longest LSL between inauguration in 1975 and retirement of last Heritage in 1996?

When I said four seatings, I meant something like 5:00, 6:00, 7:00, 8:00. Then again, not realistic, so that's why I said that I calculated for three seatings, but another guy said four was possible, per my quote.

Also, to answer the comment about a really long SS: it would probably need three P42DCs just for North of JAX service.

LSL: You left out the baggage car currently run to Boston. This needs to stay. I think since there is a food-service car and a sleeper, it should be a bag-dorm. The limited capacity of the sleeper pax to Boston should not be compromised by keeping the food service and SCA staying in roomettes. (I'm not actually sure where food service personnel stay, but I'm just guessing that they have roomettes. The fourth coach to NYP should be constant, with a fifth being seasonal.

Cardinal: I think that there should probably be two sleepers year-round. A bag-dorm should not be necessary though because the capacity may not always be there.6

Amtrak ordered 25 baggage-dorms, not 30 or 35. The NYP section of the LSL gets a baggage-dorm, using a baggage-dorm on the BOS section would likely be a waste of resources. Since the BOS-ALB leg is during the day, maybe the BOS OBS should use the NYP baggage-dorm - if there is room for them.

The Cardinal should get a baggage-dorm to free up space. With the 25 diners ordered, the plans for the Cardinal may be a baggage-dorm, 2 sleepers, and a diner, along with the Amfleet II cafe/lounge and coach cars. A daily Cardinal would boost demand for the train.

Silver Star: I think that there should eventually be 6 sleepers here. Two to Miami on the FEC, and 3 to Miami via Tampa and Orlando, assuming that this train continues to serve Tampa via the backup move. Due to the significantly shorter FEC times versus Tampa backup, most pax on the train via Tampa will not go to Miami, unless they are people like us who want much more train time. I think the Treasure Coast and Miami FEC service should merit three. I put a lounge on the FEC section due to that service being somewhat of a corridor, intra-Florida service. I would like to see the consist like this:

P42DC (via FEC)
P42DC (via Tampa and Orlando)
Bag-dorm (T&O)
Sleeper (T&O)
Sleeper (T&O)
Sleeper (T&O)
Diner (T&O)
Lounge (T&O)
Coach (T&O)
Coach (T&O)
Coach (T&O)
Baggage (FEC)
Sleeper (FEC)
Sleeper (FEC)
Sleeper (FEC
Diner (FEC)
Coach (FEC
Coach (FEC)
Coach (FEC)
Lounge (tacked on in JAX)
Coach (JAX-MIA)
Coach (JAX-MIA)
Coach (JAX-MIA).

Amtrak ordered 25 sleepers, not 35 to 40. Any start of service over the FEC is likely 3+ years away, so there is plenty to time to guess what Amtrak will do.

Where are all the coach cars for these seriously extended eastern LD trains being proposed here supposed to come from? Amtrak has only 120 LD coach and 25 cafe/lounge Amfleet II cars available. Amtrak needs to order Viewliner LD coach and cafe/lounge cars, but that is likely years away (unfortunately).

448/449 only needs a bag BOS-ALB, but if switching is to be avoided at ALB, run it BOS-CHI and only use one car as a working bag, as is currently done. The BOS section doesn't need a bag/dorm for an LSA and a coach attendant. Aside from the larger crew on the NYP section, you'd probably want to run the bag/dorm to NYP to run it to HIA for maintenance.

Getting a seating for the small dining car is already an issue on LSL. I took it last summer, all six coaches, all sold-out and wanted to have lunch in the diner. I was off on the platform enjoying the air in Syracuse when the steward came through for reservations and walked up to the diner to try and get one but was told it was completely full, they were nervous about having enough food and that I couldn't be added to a waiting/standby list. I was once put on a wait list on the Empire Builder in summer and ended up having dinner at 9pm but still got it and they made the standard "Last call for dinner announcement, if anyone else on the train wishes to have dinner." The LSL did not make a last call for lunch announcement.
I was stuck dealing with a severely depleted lounge car menu for a meager lunch!

Crescent
Bag-dorm
Sleeper [NOL]
Sleeper [NOL]
Diner [NOL]
Cafe [NOL]
Coach [NOL]
Coach [NOL]
Coach [NOL]
Coach [NOL] -Seasonal
Coach [ATL]
Coach [ATL]
Sleeper [ATL]
Sleeper [ATL]

Lake Shore Limited
Bag-dorm [NYP]
Sleeper [NYP]
Sleeper [NYP]
Sleeper [NYP]
Diner [NYP]
Cafe [NYP]
Coach [NYP]
Coach [NYP]
Coach [NYP]
Coach [NYP] -Seasonal
Coach [BOS]
Coach [BOS]
Cafe [BOS]
Sleeper [BOS]

Both are likely to make for some very long walks indeed.

Silver Star
Bag-Dorm [ORL]
Sleeper [ORL]
Sleeper [ORL]
Diner [ORL]
Cafe [ORL]
Coach [ORL]
Coach [ORL]
Coach [ORL]
Coach [FEC]
Coach [FEC]
Cafe [FEC]
Sleeper [FEC]
Sleeper [FEC]

Both sections go to Miami, albeit by different routings; therefore, I've labeled them by whether they go to Orlando or down the FEC en route. My best guess, based on the estimates in the FEC studies, was that Amtrak was likely to put two sleepers on the FEC route. However, the number of coaches may be low (I could see a third coach being added in JAX).

Cardinal
Bag-Dorm
Sleeper
Diner-Club
Coach
Coach
Coach

I am predicating this on the success of the diner-club plan on the LSL, but I'm going to guess that it is highly unlikely for the Cardinal to end up with two food service cars to serve four passenger cars, or indeed to serve five if a fifth coach is added. If a second sleeper is added (I believe that the business is there to support it; if I were Amtrak I'd be inclined to push the Cardinal for September/October and add capacity then, since all of the other LD services hit a rut during those months...particularly October).

Thinking things through, I would be inclined to suggest (rather than suspect) the following allocation of 75 sleepers to Amtrak:
-Lake Shore Limited: 12 (3 sets: 3 NYP, 1 BOS)
-Silver Meteor: 16 (4 sets: 4 MIA)
-Silver Star: 16 (4 sets: 2 FEC, 2 ORL)
-Crescent: 12 (4 sets: 2 NOL; 2 sets: 2 ATL)
-Pennsylvanian: 6 (3 sets: 2 CHI)
-Cardinal: 3 (3 sets: 1 CHI)
-Variable: 4
-Backup: 6

The "Variable" sleepers would run on the Cardinal in the fall and be assigned to one of the Florida trains (probably the Star, due to the split) at peak season, depending on demand; under this plan, the Star would require two diners, but that seems inevitable given the length of walk that would be needed to reach the diner at that point (and I pity the SCA who gets a wheelchair-bound retiree couple ordering dinner).

The "backup" cars include the 3-4 "protect" cars plus 3-4 that are shopped at any given time (an additional car or two could be pulled from the variable pile in during parts of the "off-season"; it seems possible that in some particularly slow periods, Amtrak might want to seriously consider trimming a consist or two, even just midweek, back by a car for a week or two so they could carry out a few more planned inspections).

Mind you, I'd like to see another 5-15 sleepers added: 2 for the Twilight Shoreliner, 3 for another sleeper on the Cardinal, and a few more as spares or as sleepers that can be moved around as a "surge fleet" (to actually mark off a "winter season" for Florida to at least some extent). Ideally, you'd have about 10 in the "variable" column so that Amtrak could deal with random bumps in demand (and have the SCA hookups set up so that at least in a few cases, like the LSL or the Cardinal, you could do this without increasing staffing at all) and schedule them on a somewhat ad hoc basis.

Meteor is fine, I'll leave that alone, but in regards to the others:

LSL: You left out the baggage car currently run to Boston. This needs to stay. I think since there is a food-service car and a sleeper, it should be a bag-dorm. The limited capacity of the sleeper pax to Boston should not be compromised by keeping the food service and SCA staying in roomettes. (I'm not actually sure where food service personnel stay, but I'm just guessing that they have roomettes. The fourth coach to NYP should be constant, with a fifth being seasonal.

Cardinal: I think that there should probably be two sleepers year-round. A bag-dorm should not be necessary though because the capacity may not always be there.6

Silver Star: I think that there should eventually be 6 sleepers here. Two to Miami on the FEC, and 3 to Miami via Tampa and Orlando, assuming that this train continues to serve Tampa via the backup move. Due to the significantly shorter FEC times versus Tampa backup, most pax on the train via Tampa will not go to Miami, unless they are people like us who want much more train time. I think the Treasure Coast and Miami FEC service should merit three. I put a lounge on the FEC section due to that service being somewhat of a corridor, intra-Florida service. I would like to see the consist like this:

P42DC (via FEC)
P42DC (via Tampa and Orlando)
Bag-dorm (T&O)
Sleeper (T&O)
Sleeper (T&O)
Sleeper (T&O)
Diner (T&O)
Lounge (T&O)
Coach (T&O)
Coach (T&O)
Coach (T&O)
Baggage (FEC)
Sleeper (FEC)
Sleeper (FEC)
Sleeper (FEC
Diner (FEC)
Coach (FEC
Coach (FEC)
Coach (FEC)
Lounge (tacked on in JAX)
Coach (JAX-MIA)
Coach (JAX-MIA)
Coach (JAX-MIA).

Now this is a very long train, basically double the capacity of the current train NYP-JAX. I realize that I'm giving the train probably more than it deserves, but I am trying to account for all projected growth. I put a standard baggage onto the FEC section, since all of the FEC dining staff could stay in coach on the daylight FEC section, assuming current schedule north of JAX. I felt like the FEC baggage had to be in the middle of the train, making it essentially two separate trains just with the same schedule, because having it at the end and adding coaches in JAX would make switching far too hard. The train would basically be separate, except for crew. This plan may even require two engines JAX-MIA via FEC, so I guess you can add that to what I previously wrote.

Crescent: I find the walk between the ATL coaches and especially sleepers to the diner and lounge to be way too far. I don't have remedy, because all solutions would make it awkward for some pax.

Things not mentioned in comment I'm quoting but I feel like I should say:


I also agree that 4 sleepers need to be given to the Twilight Shoreliner. From what I;ve heard on here, these would definitely be utilized.

The Palmetto should definitely receive a full diner on the run. I'm not sure what the dining CR is, but if they could make it anywhere remotely near break-even, then I think that having it as an amenity would definitely bring more back than it costs.

Again, sorry to everyone if I'm getting too carried away with my projections. I guess I would just like to think, if you implement a train, pax will ride, or something along those lines.

Thinking things through, I would be inclined to suggest (rather than suspect) the following allocation of 75 sleepers to Amtrak:
-Lake Shore Limited: 12 (3 sets: 3 NYP, 1 BOS)
-Silver Meteor: 16 (4 sets: 4 MIA)
-Silver Star: 16 (4 sets: 2 FEC, 2 ORL)
-Crescent: 12 (4 sets: 2 NOL; 2 sets: 2 ATL)
-Pennsylvanian: 6 (3 sets: 2 CHI)
-Cardinal: 3 (3 sets: 1 CHI)
-Variable: 4
-Backup: 6

The "Variable" sleepers would run on the Cardinal in the fall and be assigned to one of the Florida trains (probably the Star, due to the split) at peak season, depending on demand; under this plan, the Star would require two diners, but that seems inevitable given the length of walk that would be needed to reach the diner at that point (and I pity the SCA who gets a wheelchair-bound retiree couple ordering dinner).

The "backup" cars include the 3-4 "protect" cars plus 3-4 that are shopped at any given time (an additional car or two could be pulled from the variable pile in during parts of the "off-season"; it seems possible that in some particularly slow periods, Amtrak might want to seriously consider trimming a consist or two, even just midweek, back by a car for a week or two so they could carry out a few more planned inspections).

You don't have enough "backup" sleepers in your plan. Even before the new sleepers come online, Amtrak currently always has 5 sleepers out of service for the various inspections. There are always 2 cars out at any given time for an annual 2 week inspection and 3 cars OOS for the 2 day 92 day inspections. Adding 25 more sleepers to that mix should mean that 4 cars will be OOS for 92 day inspections and 3 will be out for at least 25 weeks of the year for the annual inspections.

That leaves no spares at all. And Amtrak at a minimum must have at least 1 spare in NY and 1 in Miami. And they really should have a spare in Chicago.

And if Amtrak starts on a refurbishment program for the original 50, then that would take 1 car OOS for a month or more.