Maple Leaf Border Crossing?

When went back to CT to visit family during the holidays, my father suggested that him and I take a trip to Canada together - by train. I was quite suprised. In May, I stepped on the southbound Vermonter, my first Amtrak trip in over 13 years, and only my second overall (the first was a trip as a child from CT to RI with my mother and sister, of it I remember little).

I instantly fell in love with train travel, and trains in general, and have spent countless hours on Amtrak trains this year (as well as countless hours watching VRS and NECR trains in the Burlington, VT area). I'm frequently on the Vermonter to visit family and friends during my academic breaks at college, but also have been on a variety of Amtrak services (over this winter break, I'll be logging over 2,000 miles on Amtrak, between this trip, a few runs on the Vermonter, and a bit on the Acela).

My father, however, probably hasn't stepped foot on an Amtrak train in 20 years, if not prior there ever even being an Amtrak. So I was shocked when he suggested taking the train - I'm guessing its partly because he knows that its my preferred way to travel.

The trip involves taking the Maple Leaf from Croton-Harmon, NY to Toronto, then VIA rail between Toronto and Montreal, then the Adirondack from Montreal back to Croton. We'll be spending a few days in each city, but mostly in Toronto, because Montreal is so close to where I live (Burlington, VT) so I can visit it anytime.

My question involves the border crossings. Amtrak allots two hours for this procedure, at least on the Maple Leaf. Does this really take two hours? What does it involve? And how crowded does this train tend to be? My only experience on the Adirondack involved a very full train.

Thanks in advance!

My experience on the Maple Leaf involved the train crossing the border and stopping at Niagara Falls, Ontario, with nobody allowed off until immigration officials boarded the train and checked everyone's documents. We stayed seated until they were through with the train. It can take a long time because they must go from row to row, car to car... I think there were a few officers doing it, but it's still a lengthy process. If you were just crossing over to the Falls, it would probably be quicker to get off at Niagara Falls NY, catching a cab to the bridge, and walk across... but since you're headed for Toronto, I'd just stay on board. The train changes to VIA control once the passport check is over ... kinda neat to see non-Amtrak food served up in the lounge. They trade in Canadian currency (understandably) but will accept American coin for exchange.

Have a great time in T.O. - lots to see and do!

Rnizlek said:

My question involves the border crossings. Amtrak allots two hours for this procedure, at least on the Maple Leaf. Does this really take two hours? What does it involve? And how crowded does this train tend to be? My only experience on the Adirondack involved a very full train.

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Unfortunately it often takes that long and sometimes even longer, especially since 9/11. Canadian customs does seem to take less time than does US customs when you come back home. But depending on the number of people on the train, how many problems the agents encounter, and whether or not you get lazy agents, it can easily take the two alloted hours and more unfortunately.

Prior to reaching the border, the crew will give you a form to fill out. The agent will ask you for that form, along with your identification, which can either be a passport or a photo id along with your birth certificate if you are a US citizen. If you don't have US citizenship, then only a passport will do. The agent will inspect your documentation and generally will ask you a few questions, much like they'd do if you were flying or driving over the border.

If they suspect something, don't be surprised to be asked to open your luggage and/or answer even more questions.

As for crowds on the train, it really depends on the time of year that you are traveling. During the summer and holiday periods, you can expect the train to be quite full. Other times the train may only approach half full at the border.

By the way, I hope that you've signed up for Amtrak's Guest Rewards program if you are traveling that much. Might as well earn some points towards free trips with all that traveling.

Rnizlek said:

My question involves the border crossings. Amtrak allots two hours for this procedure, at least on the Maple Leaf. Does this really take two hours? What does it involve? And how crowded does this train tend to be? My only experience on the Adirondack involved a very full train.
Thanks in advance!

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It can also vary based on who is on the train. If every passenger is a white US or Canadian citizen and they are sitting in their seat with passports in hand, I wouldn't think it would take them two hours to clear a train.

Eurpoeans and others from the "developed" world might slow them down a bit. If there are other nationalities that require and are holding visas, individuals from a few select nations in the middle east, or somebody with an immigrant visa (meaining they are to be processed for a green card) I can see it taking well over two hours. Unlike an airliner, where they pull problem cases/people aside and let everybody else go, I imagine that they would hold the entire train for that one passenger to be processed.

Rick

rmgreenesq said:

Unlike an airliner, where they pull problem cases/people aside and let everybody else go, I imagine that they would hold the entire train for that one passenger to be processed.

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Actually the "problem cases" are usually pulled off the train never to be seen again by the passengers on the train. I can only assume that those who can rectify the problem are then put on the next days train or find other transportation alternatives. While those who can't rectify the problem are given a one way ticket out of the country.

Having never travelled out of the country (since the age of about 3, which I don't recall), I was curious what kind of questions you may be asked by customs officials. Do they inquire as to the nature of your trip, or if you have any purchased items to declare? Naturally, I don't have anything to hide, but I would imagine if you've never encountered questioning from Customs officials before and don't know what sort of questions to expect, you might look intimidated and thus be profiled as sketchy.

The Metropolitan said:

Having never traveled out of the country (since the age of about 3, which I don't recall), I was curious what kind of questions you may be asked by customs officials. Do they inquire as to the nature of your trip, or if you have any purchased items to declare? Naturally, I don't have anything to hide, but I would imagine if you've never encountered questioning from Customs officials before and don't know what sort of questions to expect, you might look intimidated and thus be profiled as sketchy.

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Usually they want to know where you have been in the country you are leaving, are you bringing certain types of goods into the country (Canada doesn't allow any plants, foods, etc). We have been asked if we were bringing liquor, cigarettes in.
Depending from which country you are coming back from, the US officials can be very blasé or very tough.

When we came back from Europe two years ago we were questioned pretty good. I just came back from Mexico from a cruise last month and they never asked one question. Just collected the customs form and said, "have a nice day" - you never know what you will run into.

I'm sure others have stories, too.

AlanB said:

Actually the "problem cases" are usually pulled off the train never to be seen again by the passengers on the train. I can only assume that those who can rectify the problem are then put on the next days train or find other transportation alternatives. While those who can't rectify the problem are given a one way ticket out of the country.

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Perhaps problem cases was the wrong term. I imagine that individuals with admissibility issues (may or may not be let into the USA) should be left on the platform. Its a bit callous to leave folks behind who are clearly admissible to the USA, but just require more processing and paperwork on the part of Customs & Border Patrol.

Rick

The Metropolitan said:

Having never travelled out of the country (since the age of about 3, which I don't recall), I was curious what kind of questions you may be asked by customs officials. Do they inquire as to the nature of your trip, or if you have any purchased items to declare? Naturally, I don't have anything to hide, but I would imagine if you've never encountered questioning from Customs officials before and don't know what sort of questions to expect, you might look intimidated and thus be profiled as sketchy.

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I've driven and flown (both private and commerically) over the US-Canadian border more times that I can count. I've flown in from both Europe and Asia. I've returned from a crusie. I've never crossed on a train.

Before returning to the USA, the crew will give you a customs declaration to complete and sign. If you are not a US citizen, not a Canadian, and entering using a nonimmigrant visa or visa waiver, the crew will give you an I-94 card. As an immigraiton lawyer, I deal with I-94 cards all the time. As a US citizen, I've never filled one out.

Cruise ships send all non US citizens to a room (usually a dining room) to meet immigraiton. All US citizens disembark, collect their luggage (that has been sniffed by the drug dogs) and hand in the delcaration. This officer ususally asks no questions.

Arriving by commerical air, customs sorts people by citizenship (US & non). Everybody first meets immigration. Immigration inspects passports, and verifies US citzenship. Then you collect your luggage and visit customs. They will then select a few people to have their bags searched. Most just hand in their declarations and walk on.

Arriving by private aircraft is rather different. Along with the questions listed below, the inspector wants to see pilot's licenses, aircraft registration, and asks if any work was done the plane.

Driving over the border

Customs & Border Protection (CBP) tends to ask the following questions:

Where do you live?

How long have you been gone?

Where did you travel to?

Business or pleasure?

What do you do for a living?

Did you buy anything?

Any fruits or veggies?

Did you visit a farm?

I've never been asked for papers driving over the border, but I imagine with the implementation of the Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative, that will change.

Rick

Aloha

Haven t visited Canada to many times but all were comfortable, used plane most of the time but the west coast crossing was the easiest train entered a fenced area at the station and custom people maned a couple of desks at end of platform, time was about 2 min a person, I thought excellent service.

My wife and I cross in and out of the US and Canada a lot. Only by car though. Comeing back into the US is the only time we get any kind of hold up. Its a hit and miss situation. We allways have our passports ready, with the receipt for anything we bought in Canada. Never a problem. We cross at Fort Erie or at the Rainbow bridge. A couple of years ago there was a 7-8 hour back up when there was a bomb scare.It may be they have pity on us because when asked where we have been we say the casino. :lol: :lol: :lol: New laws now in affect for any one comeing into the US. As they say know before you go.I am sure someone on the forum knows more about this, and will share.

Customs questions vary all over the map. I have worked in Asia for most of the last 17 years and have entered and left the US about 25 times over this period, always by air. In addition I have had a couple of US - Canada crossing by car, one by train , and one by bus (into and out of Montreal). I have also made quite a few trips betweeen various Asian countries. The US customs has proven themselves to be the most erratic and unpredictable of all. On one occasion my oldest son and I got asked, "Why are you entering the United States?" when we laid our US Passports in front of him. This being a line for US citizens, its not likely the question was a mistake. After an open-mouthed moment we came of with a reasonable answer something like we are coming home for a while.

Remember, any sense of houmor is surgically removed from these people before they are allowed to take the job, so never, never, joke.

George

George Harris said:

Remember, any sense of houmor is surgically removed from these people before they are allowed to take the job, so never, never, joke.
George

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Maybe I have just had good luck, but most of the agents I have encountered have been professional and personable. There have been exceptions, of course, but a smile and some small talk is sometimes welcomed by those folks who have a pretty tough job. I think saying all FIS agents are humorless is kind of like saying all Amtrak service personnel are rude. Fits some, but not all.

I myself am one of those awkward non-North-Americans who usually slows down the crossing, and have been riding the Adirondack and Maple Leaf for just over a year now (and am going south again from Montréal to Chicago tomorrow). US and Candian citizens get through quite easily - as long as you have your papers, you're just likely to be asked why you were away or why you're going away, where you have or will be staying and if you have anything to declare (liquor, tobacco etc). It gets more complicated if you are from outside the USA or Canada, or if you are an immigrant who has yet to be completely naturalised... complex paperwork always slows things down. Entering the USA, I have always had to buy a green visa waiver card ($6, payable in US dollars only) on the train - usually you get sent down to the café car where another agent does the paperwork. This remains valid for ninety days and you can can come and go as many times you please within that timeframe. Otherwise it's roughly the same going each way - you have to fill in a card before you reach the border. US Immigration demands that you declare the address of where you'll be spending your first night (difficult for me tomorrow, as I'll be trying to sleep in coach class on train 49 to CHI !)

As an objective foreigner, I've experienced the process on both sides, and I can honestly say that the Canadian Immigration crew are generally more polite and efficient, and also less intimidating. The US Immigration team that boards the Adirondack at Rouses Point are generally armed, and like to finish off the overall beefcake look with pointless sunglasses and leather gloves. The questions are usually monosyllabic and there's not much opporunity small talk. So don't be put off, don't try to crack any jokes, and just answer the questions honestly.

In my experience, one or two people get lifted off the train each time, and there can be any number of reasons for this that we are not party to. However, going north back into Canada once, I had a friendly chat with a Québec border guard after she realised I spoke French. She told me that they had already removed one person who had previously tried to enter through other border points and been refused. Don't forget that when you book trans-border travel, your name, details, ID number etc are all passed to customs long before you get to the border. The immigration teams on both sides know who is coming and their systems will flag up any names that ring any alarm bells. Although Canadian laws on drug use are not as liberal as people still believe, groups of younger people who have are heading home from a weekend living it up in Montréal are sometimes carrying small quantities of grass or dope. On the street in Montréal this might get you a stern warning from a cop, but entering the USA you're not going to get off that easily. Having said that I did drive from Montréal to New York City once with a friend, who realised as we approached the crossing that she had a not insubstantial quantity of magic mushrooms in her handbag... luckily we made it through, and she was able to compliment her trip to NYC with another 'trip' later that weekend

Amtrak timetables generally never leave enough time for the crossing procedures, but for whatever reasons the time slot for the check has not been extended recently, even though it has been taking longer in the last few years.

The way that the border crossing is handled on Amtrak is still strange to me, not least because the US and Canadian governments have never seemed interesting in following Europe, and creating a common security zone between both countries. In Europe I can fly through customs by just holding up my passport (or ID card, if were from a country with ID cards). The principal is that most care goes into securing the borders of Europe, rather than internal borders. That would make more sense here in Canada and the USA, because with the exception of the border with Mexico it's pretty difficult for anyone to get into the USA and Canada from outside the continent. It is likewise incredibly difficult to secure the US-Canadian border, and seems rather fruitless since the countries are so closely dependent (trade, tourism etc). If I were in charge (hehe) I would build a secured platform at Montréal's Gare Centrale - much like the one in Vancouver's Pacific Station - so that passengers could clear customs and immigration before departing and after arriving, thereby limiting the risk of delays. This would work with the Adirondack if the train skipped the stop at St. Lambert. Connections to the Ocean to and frp, Halifax NS are risky anyway, so there wouldn't much of an issue with that. On a busy summertime train (when there are four coaches full of passengers with all different kinds of papers and passports) the delay at the border crossing can be anything up to two hours.

The strange part to me is why people who know they're not likely to get through still try the train (where their details will be forwarded to customs, and where they'll be very easily found on a locked train). You can travel less than 50km from the point where the Adirondack crosses the border and find yourself any number of roads, tracks or other places where a person could cross the border unhindered and undetected. I'm not kidding - I've seen these places myself, and I'm not buying any bull---- that there are cameras, motion detectors etc monitoring them.

*j* :blink:

I'll sell you a dime of bull for $5. :lol:

jamesbrownontheroad said:

If I were in charge (hehe) I would build a secured platform at Montréal's Gare Centrale - much like the one in Vancouver's Pacific Station - so that passengers could clear customs and immigration before departing and after arriving, thereby limiting the risk of delays.
<snip>

You can travel less than 50km from the point where the Adirondack crosses the border and find yourself any number of roads, tracks or other places where a person could cross the border unhindered and undetected. I'm not kidding - I've seen these places myself, and I'm not buying any bull---- that there are cameras, motion detectors etc monitoring them.

*j* :blink:

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Mr. Brownontheroad:

As a non-North American, I apprecaite your input. If I were in charge, I'd put a secure platform on Gare Centrale too. Canada Customs would work the arriving train, and US CBP could clear departing passengers before they board the train. The US and Canada do cooperate on air transporation clearances. US bound passangers in Canada are cleared by US CBP before boarding their flights. This way, inbound aircraft from Canada can be treated as domestic flights at the US airport.

As to the security of the US border, I used to live in Langley, BC, about 15 miles north of the border in the Lower Mainland of BC. To cross the border, I'd drive south until I hit 0 Ave (the 49th paralell), turn right, travel another 5 miles to get to the port of entry, and cross at the POE.

One afternoon as I was driving south, I listen to the radio for traffic and border crossing wait time reports. As I drove west in my Chevy Blazer and heard that my favorite POE has an hour wait, I looked out the window. I noticed that the border between US and Canada was nothing more than a three foot ditch and there was a paralell road on the Washington side of the border. I though to myself, I'm gunna get in line for an hour to deal with a surley customs inspector or I could just cross here.

Rick

rmgreenesq said:

As I drove west in my Chevy Blazer and heard that my favorite POE has an hour wait, I looked out the window. I noticed that the border between US and Canada was nothing more than a three foot ditch and there was a parallel road on the Washington side of the border. I though to myself, I'm gunna get in line for an hour to deal with a surley customs inspector or I could just cross here.
Rick

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Any idea how many people do cross that way, there, or along the very long un-protected border with Canada??

MrFSS said:

Any idea how many people do cross that way, there, or along the very long un-protected border with Canada??

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Not sure, but I've got a screenshot of the border from Google. The border runs between the two paralell roads. The top road is 0 Ave and the bottom one is Boundry Road.



Rick

Thanks for everyone's responses! One final question: is Amtrak running Amfleet Is or IIs on the Maple Leaf? I know a while back they were Is, but I thought I read somewhere they had moved to IIs.

Thanks!

Rnizlek said:

Thanks for everyone's responses! One final question: is Amtrak running Amfleet Is or IIs on the Maple Leaf? I know a while back they were Is, but I thought I read somewhere they had moved to IIs.
Thanks!

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Everything except for the Business Class car is an Amfleet II. The BC car is a Club-dinette car, which is a former Metroliner First Class/Club car. This car has 2 & 1 seating, with nice faux leather covers, foot rest, calf rest, and a seat that is much roomier than the normal. IMHO well worth the extra cost to upgrade, especially if you are running the full length of the route.

I’d hate to think of the backlog at the border if current proceedures were in place 50 years ago when all New York Central trains from Detroit to Buffalo, Boston and New York City passed through Canada: Multiple trains a day (many running in several sections) and thousands of passengers a day passing thru Canada between US destinations and probably most people didn’t even realize they were in another country!

Similar for VIA’s Atlantic Limited too between Montreal and Halifax that lasted until December 1994.

There were different procedures in handling the Atlantic over the years. When it was a CP operated train usually only the coach passengers were inspected by US Customs at the border and sleeping car passengers were just left alone. Anyone boarding the train in Maine was inspected by Canadian Customs at Magantic, Quebec or McAdam, New Brunswick. This was the same procedure when VIA took over and extended the Atlantic through to Halifax in Oct. 1979.

The Atlantic was discontinued in Nov. 1981 but when it was reinstated in June 1985 there was a whole new set of rules: Now US Customs and the INS insisted everyone would be inspected. Even the Sleeping Car passengers were wakened eastbound at 3amET in Jackman, Maine. Westbound wasn’t as bad: 9pmET (10pmAT) at Vanceboro. The trains were running long and full so there were major delays.

I was in a sleeper from Montreal to Halifax that summer. When they woke us at 3am the Inspector asked me the purpose of my trip. I said I was in the States only because the train was. He asked if I was trying to be “Smart” and said he would be back. Well he must have got the same reply from most others as I didn’t see him again. If they had left the passengers alone, they would have gone to sleep in Canada and woke in Canada the next morning, some not even realizing they had even been through the US.

It took a couple of years of negotiations but eventually the train was “Sealed” across the US with a metal “Tag” being placed on all doors except one where US Customs Inspectors rode the trains and only checked those getting off in the US.

Wonder how things would be handled today if the Atlantic was still running. How simple things were pre 9-11!

PRR 60 said:

George Harris said:

Remember, any sense of humor is surgically removed from these people before they are allowed to take the job, so never, never, joke.

George

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Maybe I have just had good luck, but most of the agents I have encountered have been professional and personable. There have been exceptions, of course, but a smile and some small talk is sometimes welcomed by those folks who have a pretty tough job. I think saying all FIS agents are humorless is kind of like saying all Amtrak service personnel are rude. Fits some, but not all.

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You miss my point. Smile and reasonable small talk, yes, but also pick who you do it with. Humor? Never, never, never joke with these people. I have probably made something like 30 entries in the last 17 years, mostly from Asian points, but a few Canada --> US crossings, and I stand by what I said. If you are calm and businesslike you really can't go wrong - normally. Beyond that with the wrong person, and you may spend a while explaining yourself in detail. Or worse, having everything you have gone through in great detail, opened and taken apart. Remember, and this is no joke, customs can inspect your stuff with a chain saw, and you have no recourse what so ever.

George

I've never crossed the border before, but that just seems like common sense to me. That's like trying to crack jokes when you get pulled over for speeding. Yes sir/ma'am, No sir/ma'am, and that's it. Being, well, myself with a cop would be like writing a ticket for myself to a big ticket, or worse.

Don't forget to apply for your passport early. The new rules require them for travel to/from Canada, Mexico, and Carribean points (except non-stop flights to/from USVI). Effective dates have been changed several times, but there will be a rush of applicants, and unless you live in one of the few cities that has a passport office (where you can get same-day service), it can take 3-4 weeks under the best of circumstances. It is said that the new Canadian-Mexican passport will be a simpler "e-passport" easier to get than the regular one, but if you believe that, I've got some beachfront property in Arizona I'll sell you for a good price.

Donnie said:

Don't forget to apply for your passport early. The new rules require them for travel to/from Canada, Mexico, and Carribean points (except non-stop flights to/from USVI). Effective dates have been changed several times, but there will be a rush of applicants, and unless you live in one of the few cities that has a passport office (where you can get same-day service), it can take 3-4 weeks under the best of circumstances. It is said that the new Canadian-Mexican passport will be a simpler "e-passport" easier to get than the regular one, but if you believe that, I've got some beachfront property in Arizona I'll sell you for a good price.

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The new rules only require them for those who are flying at present. Anyone traveling by train or driving across the border won't need a passport till 2008, assuming no changes to the laws or further postponments to same.