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Elon Musk's Boring Company to build O'Hare-downtown tunnel


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#41 Metra Electric Rider

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Posted 29 June 2018 - 08:51 AM

 

 

I also still can't quite believe the very ambitious start schedule - there is, there are, a lot of complicated infrastructural elements in the path of the tunnel that will need to be accurately mapped and permits to be issued before he can start - I just can't see them having assembled all of that as quickly as claimed.


What is the propsed path?

 

 

I don't think it has been determined, although I imagine under or near the Kennedy Expressway would be the most direct route. Quite frankly, if this gets built, I will be quite surprised. It just seem like pie in the sky. Musk seems to be promising everything to everybody. 

 

 

I keep (well, kept, haven't checked up lately) hearing that it'll run under streets and existing rights of way, so little to no legalities of being under private property. I really don't know much about the law for that here - we have the deep tunnel system for drainage here, I think it runs under private property in places. The cta subway sections here don't run under buildings much, if at all, nor does the old freight tunnel system.

 

There's still the issue of avoiding underground utilities, though if it's deep enough not an issue, but there is still, you know, geology to deal with, borings and core samples to take. And of course, it'll have to avoid the deep tunnel and you'll need access points to remove tailings, emergency access/egress, etc, on the surface. Depending upon how deep they go it could be through bedrock or through clay if shallower (I'm assuming clay because that's what seems to get removed at high rise construction around here when the drill for caissons or footings). I know the deep tunnel system is bored through bedrock, which around here is limestone.


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#42 MARC Rider

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Posted 29 June 2018 - 03:25 PM


 


 

I also still can't quite believe the very ambitious start schedule - there is, there are, a lot of complicated infrastructural elements in the path of the tunnel that will need to be accurately mapped and permits to be issued before he can start - I just can't see them having assembled all of that as quickly as claimed.

What is the propsed path?
 
 
I don't think it has been determined, although I imagine under or near the Kennedy Expressway would be the most direct route. Quite frankly, if this gets built, I will be quite surprised. It just seem like pie in the sky. Musk seems to be promising everything to everybody. 
 
 
I keep (well, kept, haven't checked up lately) hearing that it'll run under streets and existing rights of way, so little to no legalities of being under private property. I really don't know much about the law for that here - we have the deep tunnel system for drainage here, I think it runs under private property in places. The cta subway sections here don't run under buildings much, if at all, nor does the old freight tunnel system.
 
There's still the issue of avoiding underground utilities, though if it's deep enough not an issue, but there is still, you know, geology to deal with, borings and core samples to take. And of course, it'll have to avoid the deep tunnel and you'll need access points to remove tailings, emergency access/egress, etc, on the surface. Depending upon how deep they go it could be through bedrock or through clay if shallower (I'm assuming clay because that's what seems to get removed at high rise construction around here when the drill for caissons or footings). I know the deep tunnel system is bored through bedrock, which around here is limestone.

How deep is the water table? If the tunnel is below the water table, how will they keep it dewatered?
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#43 Ryan

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Posted 29 June 2018 - 04:51 PM

By making it watertight?
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#44 Pere Flyer

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Posted 29 June 2018 - 06:54 PM

By making it watertight?

It must be a hyperloop from O’Hare to Millennium!

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#45 MisterUptempo

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Posted 29 June 2018 - 11:33 PM

 

I also still can't quite believe the very ambitious start schedule - there is, there are, a lot of complicated infrastructural elements in the path of the tunnel that will need to be accurately mapped and permits to be issued before he can start - I just can't see them having assembled all of that as quickly as claimed.


What is the propsed path?

 

 

As per the description Boring Company included in their proposal, The Chicago Tribune came up with this-

 

w4nAlqP.png

img src - Chicago Tribune

 

Musk certainly got more than his share of publicity with this announcement, and I believe Rahm is hoping to influence Amazon's HQ2 decision with this bit of whiz-bang technology. My concern is that if Musk's high-speed butter dishes never materialize, the idea of an airport express will be too toxic for a long time afterwards.

 

I wonder whether we'll ever get to see the competing bid that lost out to Boring.


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#46 MARC Rider

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Posted 01 July 2018 - 06:51 PM

By making it watertight?

It must be a hyperloop from OHare to Millennium!

1) If the tunnel is like my basement, which is sometime affected by rising water tables, it might be difficult to make it watertight. On the other hand there are lotes of underwater tunnels, e.g
Hudson River tubes, a good part of the New York subway, etc, so I guess this can be engineered.

2) But isn't the concrpt of the Hyperloop the fact that the tunnel is a vaccuun? That might make the engineering a bit more complicated and expensive.

#47 NorthShore

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 02:59 AM

Musk seems to be promising everything to everybody. 


Sounds like an Illinois politician!

#48 cirdan

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 04:11 AM

 

 

By making it watertight?

It must be a hyperloop from OHare to Millennium!

1) If the tunnel is like my basement, which is sometime affected by rising water tables, it might be difficult to make it watertight. On the other hand there are lotes of underwater tunnels, e.g
Hudson River tubes, a good part of the New York subway, etc, so I guess this can be engineered.

2) But isn't the concrpt of the Hyperloop the fact that the tunnel is a vaccuun? That might make the engineering a bit more complicated and expensive.

 

 

Consideatble chunks of London's Tube system are below the water table. And they were built more than 100 years ago.

 

The technique used then was to maintain a higher air pressure in the tunneling shield. Of course that didn't totally stop ingress , just slowed it down, but they also had pumping machines to move that water out.

 

Another part of the story was that tunnels were intentionally routed through layers of clay with a lower water content. This is why test borings were required beforehand and extensive 3-D geological maps created.

 

I would assume that 100 years on, a much better job could be done. 



#49 MARC Rider

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 07:20 AM

 

 

 

The technique used then was to maintain a higher air pressure in the tunneling shield. Of course that didn't totally stop ingress , just slowed it down, but they also had pumping machines to move that water out.

 

 

 

 

That's fine while you're digging the tunnel, but the point of a hyerloop is that the finished tube is evacuated and the train runs in a vacuum.  I suppose you can seal the finished tube pretty well, but no engineered structure is perfect, so I'm not sure how this is going to be any better than a conventional subway with express stops.


Edited by MARC Rider, 02 July 2018 - 07:21 AM.


#50 MARC Rider

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 07:29 AM

 

 

 

Another part of the story was that tunnels were intentionally routed through layers of clay with a lower water content. This is why test borings were required beforehand and extensive 3-D geological maps created.

 

I would assume that 100 years on, a much better job could be done. 

 

After 100 years, geophysical sounding methods are better, so maybe you don't have to drill so much, but you can't totally avoid it.  Also, while there may be clay layers in the downtown area of Chicago along the lake, most of the region is underlain by surficial glacial deposits, and at depth limestone.  Limestone is highly permeable; in fact the water flows through open conduits dissolved from the rock, the locations of which can't always be detected from the surface.  Not saying they can't do it, but it's going to be expensive as hell, and the geotechnical surveys might require some rerouting which will also drive up the cost.  A good chance that the privately-funded project goes belly-up and the public sector is left holding the bag.


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#51 MARC Rider

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 07:32 AM

 

Musk seems to be promising everything to everybody. 


Sounds like an Illinois politician!

 

 

Sounds like a politician from every state in the union and every country on earth (and probably every planet in the universe that has politicians.)



#52 Devil's Advocate

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 08:02 AM

 

 

Musk seems to be promising everything to everybody. 


Sounds like an Illinois politician!

 

Sounds like a politician from every state in the union and every country on earth (and probably every planet in the universe that has politicians.)

 

Politicians lie, cheat, and scheme because that's the sort of person who is drawn to high risk/reward propositions and because that's the sort of attitude which convinces millions of low effort casual voters to support you.  Any political system worth supporting must account for and mitigate against this.


Edited by Devil's Advocate, 02 July 2018 - 02:02 PM.

.


#53 cirdan

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 09:46 AM

 

 

 

 

The technique used then was to maintain a higher air pressure in the tunneling shield. Of course that didn't totally stop ingress , just slowed it down, but they also had pumping machines to move that water out.

 

 

 

 

That's fine while you're digging the tunnel, but the point of a hyerloop is that the finished tube is evacuated and the train runs in a vacuum.  I suppose you can seal the finished tube pretty well, but no engineered structure is perfect, so I'm not sure how this is going to be any better than a conventional subway with express stops.

 

 

You could build the tunnel with a double wall. the outer wall would be concrete and its job would basically be to support the surrounding soil. Although it would be as watertight as possible, som inflow might occur. Remember that any water ingress implies there is a water current outside the tunnel which in turn means erosion of the surrounding soil which could in the long term create cavities and destabilize the soil. So ingress should be minimized not just for nuisance reasons but to assure the long term intergrity of the tunnel.

 

Water ingress would be colected in a channel on the tunnel floor and pumped out.

 

Then within that outer tunnel there would be an inner pipe made of steel or polymer segments joined in an airtight manner.A bit like you would do for a water or gas or oil pipeline. Water ingress ito that inner tunnel would be minimal. Space between outer and inner tunnel would be sufficient to allow the passage of inspection robots.

 

Possibly that space could also be used for cables, service piping etc. This would require service entrances at regular intervals. The easiest way to do this would be through doors from the inner tunnel that can be used at times the hyperloop is shut down.


Edited by cirdan, 02 July 2018 - 09:49 AM.


#54 cirdan

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 09:52 AM

 

 

 

 

  A good chance that the privately-funded project goes belly-up and the public sector is left holding the bag.

 

 

This, unfortunately is what I fear.

 

Which may mean spending money for decades to come on mainaining a flawed system. Money that could have been better spent on the existing system.



#55 cpotisch

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 10:14 AM

The technique used then was to maintain a higher air pressure in the tunneling shield. Of course that didn't totally stop ingress , just slowed it down, but they also had pumping machines to move that water out.

Sure, but the exact point of the Hyperloop's tube is for it to be a near vacuum. So maintaining high air pressure in that tube to keep the water out probably wouldn't be the best idea in this (hypothetical) case.


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#56 Trogdor

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 10:53 AM

 

The technique used then was to maintain a higher air pressure in the tunneling shield. Of course that didn't totally stop ingress , just slowed it down, but they also had pumping machines to move that water out.

Sure, but the exact point of the Hyperloop's tube is for it to be a near vacuum. So maintaining high air pressure in that tube to keep the water out probably wouldn't be the best idea in this (hypothetical) case.

 

 

To be clear, what's being proposed for this O'Hare link isn't hyperloop.  It's basically electric vans in a tunnel.


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#57 cpotisch

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 11:03 AM

 

 

The technique used then was to maintain a higher air pressure in the tunneling shield. Of course that didn't totally stop ingress , just slowed it down, but they also had pumping machines to move that water out.

Sure, but the exact point of the Hyperloop's tube is for it to be a near vacuum. So maintaining high air pressure in that tube to keep the water out probably wouldn't be the best idea in this (hypothetical) case.

 

 

To be clear, what's being proposed for this O'Hare link isn't hyperloop.  It's basically electric vans in a tunnel.

 

I 100% know that. That's why I said "in this (hypothetical) case."


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#58 NorthShore

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 03:26 PM

After seeing that map, I'm excited. Elon Musk is bringing back the #41 bus! (And the #40 to boot)




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