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Advice for First-Time Flyers


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#41 jis

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 11:20 AM

Amfleet's HVAC is really noisy compared to many other AC car types that I have ridden all over the world.



#42 cpotisch

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 11:22 AM

At first, the engine sound on takeoff is dominant, but as the speed increases to full cruising speed, the slipstream noise pretty much covers it up,

I would also note that most planes will be using less thrust at cruising altitude than on takeoff.


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#43 AmtrakBlue

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 11:24 AM

 

At first, the engine sound on takeoff is dominant, but as the speed increases to full cruising speed, the slipstream noise pretty much covers it up,

I would also note that most planes will be using less thrust at cruising altitude than on takeoff.

 

Don't you know, they turn off the engines when cruising.  They go into glider mode because so many people complained about the noise.    :P


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#44 railiner

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 11:32 AM

What I dislike, is when while climbing, they sometimes reduce throttle for a period, for noise abatement procedures...

It doesn't seem as common as it used to, thanks to new, quieter high bypass engines....


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#45 jis

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 11:37 AM

What I dislike, is when while climbing, they sometimes reduce throttle for a period, for noise abatement procedures...

It doesn't seem as common as it used to, thanks to new, quieter high bypass engines....

Yeah, Orange County (John Wayne) comes to mind :). San Diego too. OTOH, it is the most fun taking off from those too as they try to gain as much altitude as possible before passing the airport noise perimeter and throttle down. 757 takeoffs are real fun. :)



#46 cpotisch

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 12:00 PM

What I dislike, is when while climbing, they sometimes reduce throttle for a period, for noise abatement procedures...

It doesn't seem as common as it used to, thanks to new, quieter high bypass engines....

I didn't know they did that at all. Don't they have to keep throttle at climb thrust or above while climbing? I feel like the engines would have to be REALLY loud for that to be necessary. I could be wrong, it just surprises me.


Routes Traveled: Silver Meteor, Silver Star, CrescentLake Shore LimitedCalifornia Zephyr, Sunset Limited, Texas EagleEthan Allen Express, Empire Service, Maple Leaf, AdirondackAcela Express, Northeast RegionalKeystone Service
 
Wish List: Cardinal, CONO, Empire Builder, Southwest Chief, Crescent (overnight), Adirondack w/ Great Dome, Downeaster

#47 jis

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 12:11 PM

 

What I dislike, is when while climbing, they sometimes reduce throttle for a period, for noise abatement procedures...

It doesn't seem as common as it used to, thanks to new, quieter high bypass engines....

I didn't know they did that at all. Don't they have to keep throttle at climb thrust or above while climbing? I feel like the engines would have to be REALLY loud for that to be necessary. I could be wrong, it just surprises me.

 

Standard practice at places like Orange County and San Diego.

 

In Newark too they have to ease off some while making crazy turns after takeoff to stay within the permitted noise abatement corridors.

 

And then again, in heavy traffic TCAs it may be simply because a higher level is not available until getting a little further out.


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#48 Devil's Advocate

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 12:56 PM

What I dislike, is when while climbing, they sometimes reduce throttle for a period, for noise abatement procedures...It doesn't seem as common as it used to, thanks to new, quieter high bypass engines....


Why does that bother you? I live near an airport and even though I don't mind the sound of aircraft I can understand the benefit of noise abatement.  By reducing thrust and routing aircraft over less affected commercial zones residential areas benefit from a quieter and more peaceful existence.  This keeps neighbors happy and airports productive with fewer legal and political distractions.  Most of the time the protocol does its job and I don't even think about it, but every once in a while during a major storm or other irregular event there can be a sudden increase in sound as the noise abatement protocol is suspended for safety reasons.  The sudden increase in sound can startle and annoy people who are used to quieter living but rarely lasts more than an hour or two. All in all it seems like a small price to pay to keep most people happy.

 

I didn't know they did that at all. Don't they have to keep throttle at climb thrust or above while climbing? I feel like the engines would have to be REALLY loud for that to be necessary. I could be wrong, it just surprises me.


It's less of an issue on the newest aircraft but try listening to an MD8X take off from behind or below the jet blast. It's super loud, even for my tired old ears, and it's impossible to ignore if you're anywhere near it.


Edited by Devil's Advocate, 19 June 2018 - 01:06 PM.

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#49 cpotisch

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 01:13 PM

It's less of an issue on the newest aircraft but try listening to an MD8X take off from behind or below the jet blast. It's super loud, even for my tired old ears, and it's impossible to ignore if you're anywhere near it.

 

An MD-88 or -83 taking off on full throttle is pretty much unbearable if you're in the rear. Even though it only lasts for maybe 20 or 30 seconds, it's quite unpleasant. When you compare it to the whisper of the engines on an E-Jet or A32X, it's night and day.


Routes Traveled: Silver Meteor, Silver Star, CrescentLake Shore LimitedCalifornia Zephyr, Sunset Limited, Texas EagleEthan Allen Express, Empire Service, Maple Leaf, AdirondackAcela Express, Northeast RegionalKeystone Service
 
Wish List: Cardinal, CONO, Empire Builder, Southwest Chief, Crescent (overnight), Adirondack w/ Great Dome, Downeaster

#50 jis

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 01:15 PM

Heh! If you have not experienced a 707 with afterburners on, you ain't experienced nuthin' :D



#51 cpotisch

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 01:16 PM

Heh! If you have not experienced a 707 with afterburners on, you ain't experienced nuthin' :D

Afterburners? 707 didn't have afterburners...


Edited by cpotisch, 19 June 2018 - 01:17 PM.

Routes Traveled: Silver Meteor, Silver Star, CrescentLake Shore LimitedCalifornia Zephyr, Sunset Limited, Texas EagleEthan Allen Express, Empire Service, Maple Leaf, AdirondackAcela Express, Northeast RegionalKeystone Service
 
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#52 railiner

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 01:19 PM

I understand the reason for it, but it is a little disconcerting when you feel the illusion of 'dropping' momentarily while in a steep climb-out, even though you are actually still climbing.

 

Noise was really a problem back in the turbo-jet era, before the high bypass fanjets.  Early 707's, 727's, etc., used to rattle my windows, and set off car alarms.   I am only about 4 miles from the end of LGA runway 13.  And back then, we didn't have A/C, so summertime we had our windows open...


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#53 jis

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 01:25 PM

 

Heh! If you have not experienced a 707 with afterburners on, you ain't experienced nuthin' :D

Afterburners? 707 didn't have afterburners...

 

Early turbojet ones did.The so called high bypass Turbofans came a bit later. I have seen, heard and do remember them. People have very little idea today about how precarious the early 707s were. They could barely make it across the pond, and often required diversions to Gander or Shannon and such places, if they were not already a scheduled service stop.

 

The trail of dark black smoke during the takeoff run and climb out used to be quite impressive.


Edited by jis, 19 June 2018 - 01:28 PM.

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#54 cpotisch

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 01:31 PM

 

 

Heh! If you have not experienced a 707 with afterburners on, you ain't experienced nuthin' :D

Afterburners? 707 didn't have afterburners...

 

Early turbojet ones did.The so called high bypass Turbofans came a bit later. I have seen, heard and do remember them. People have very little idea today about how precarious the early 707s were. They could barely make it across the pond, and often required diversions to Gander or Shannon and such places, if they were not already a scheduled service stop.

 

The trail of dark black smoke during the takeoff run and climb out used to be quite impressive.

 

I know there was a military version of the JT8D that did have afterburners, however that was never fitted to the 707s. I don't mean to challenge you on this, but I'm pretty sure the 707s never had afterburners...


Routes Traveled: Silver Meteor, Silver Star, CrescentLake Shore LimitedCalifornia Zephyr, Sunset Limited, Texas EagleEthan Allen Express, Empire Service, Maple Leaf, AdirondackAcela Express, Northeast RegionalKeystone Service
 
Wish List: Cardinal, CONO, Empire Builder, Southwest Chief, Crescent (overnight), Adirondack w/ Great Dome, Downeaster

#55 railiner

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 01:32 PM

 

 

Heh! If you have not experienced a 707 with afterburners on, you ain't experienced nuthin' :D

Afterburners? 707 didn't have afterburners...

 

Early turbojet ones did.The so called high bypass Turbofans came a bit later. I have seen, heard and do remember them. People have very little idea today about how precarious the early 707s were. They could barely make it across the pond, and often required diversions to Gander or Shannon and such places, if they were not already a scheduled service stop.

 

The trail of dark black smoke during the takeoff run and climb out used to be quite impressive.

 

I don't know about after-burner's in a civilian aircraft, other than the Concorde, which did not engage them until well off the coast.

What really gave those early 707's smoke, was water-injection, used for extra takeoff thrust, IIRC


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#56 cpotisch

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 01:35 PM

 

 

 

Heh! If you have not experienced a 707 with afterburners on, you ain't experienced nuthin' :D

Afterburners? 707 didn't have afterburners...

 

Early turbojet ones did.The so called high bypass Turbofans came a bit later. I have seen, heard and do remember them. People have very little idea today about how precarious the early 707s were. They could barely make it across the pond, and often required diversions to Gander or Shannon and such places, if they were not already a scheduled service stop.

 

The trail of dark black smoke during the takeoff run and climb out used to be quite impressive.

 

I don't know about after-burner's in a civilian aircraft, other than the Concorde, which did not engage them until well off the coast.

What really gave those early 707's smoke, was water-injection, used for extra takeoff thrust, IIRC

 

I'm looking it up now, and everything says that the Concorde and TU-144 (the Russian equivalent) were the only civilian aircraft ever to have afterburners.


Routes Traveled: Silver Meteor, Silver Star, CrescentLake Shore LimitedCalifornia Zephyr, Sunset Limited, Texas EagleEthan Allen Express, Empire Service, Maple Leaf, AdirondackAcela Express, Northeast RegionalKeystone Service
 
Wish List: Cardinal, CONO, Empire Builder, Southwest Chief, Crescent (overnight), Adirondack w/ Great Dome, Downeaster

#57 jis

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 01:37 PM

OK, maybe I am remembering wrong. But the early ones had these trail of smoke spewing out the back of the engine. maybe it was something else.

 

Right the P&W J75s on 707s did not have afterburners. Nor did the GE J79 on the Convair 880 and 990. As I recall, the Convairs were even more smoky than the 707s. So it was just that they were Turbojets with cooler cores and with water injection that produce the smoky exhaust.

 

These were followed by the JT3D. The low bypass JT8D and the Rolls Royce Conway came a few years later.

 

I never had a chance to fly in a J75 or JT3D powered 707. But I did fly in 707s powered by both JT8D and RR Conway (the 420 version of 707 flown by both BOAC and Air india), though my first flight was on a JT8D powered 707 of Air India.


Edited by jis, 19 June 2018 - 02:05 PM.


#58 Devil's Advocate

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 01:56 PM

I don't know about after-burner's in a civilian aircraft, other than the Concorde, which did not engage them until well off the coast. What really gave those early 707's smoke, was water-injection, used for extra takeoff thrust, IIRC


Your 707 explanation is correct, at least so far as I am aware, but the Concorde afterburners were actually engaged during takeoff, then disengaged shortly afterward while flying over land and then reengaged over the ocean again until nominal cruising speed was attained.


Edited by Devil's Advocate, 19 June 2018 - 01:58 PM.

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#59 railiner

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 02:09 PM

 

I don't know about after-burner's in a civilian aircraft, other than the Concorde, which did not engage them until well off the coast. What really gave those early 707's smoke, was water-injection, used for extra takeoff thrust, IIRC


Your 707 explanation is correct, at least so far as I am aware, but the Concorde afterburners were actually engaged during takeoff, then disengaged shortly afterward while flying over land and then reengaged over the ocean again until nominal cruising speed was attained.

 

That sounds logical...one thing for sure...they didn't go supersonic until well off the coast.... ;)


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#60 railiner

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 02:11 PM

 

 

I don't know about after-burner's in a civilian aircraft, other than the Concorde, which did not engage them until well off the coast. What really gave those early 707's smoke, was water-injection, used for extra takeoff thrust, IIRC


Your 707 explanation is correct, at least so far as I am aware, but the Concorde afterburners were actually engaged during takeoff, then disengaged shortly afterward while flying over land and then reengaged over the ocean again until nominal cruising speed was attained.

 

That sounds logical...one thing for sure...they didn't go supersonic until well off the coast.... ;)

 

I recall when they had an interchange flight with Braniff...LHR-IAD-DFW....

They remained subsonic, although faster than anything else, while operated by Braniff... :)


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