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CZ passenger injured near Truckee CA, unknown circumstances


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#21 cpotisch

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Posted 23 May 2018 - 06:43 PM

I've gotta say, if it's true that Amtrak aren't letting or are trying to prevent the actual police investigate, that's kind of problematic. I don't believe that there's a major conspiracy to cover up foul play, but it still does not seem appropriate to keep this investigation completely to themselves.


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#22 zephyr17

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Posted 23 May 2018 - 07:01 PM

Amtrak PD are "actual police".  They are an accredited agency with full police powers, they aren't just a bunch of security guard rent-a-cops, and they are the ones with jurisdiction for incidents onboard Amtrak trains in transit.  My understanding is that other agencies actually do not have jurisdiction, so it is up to Amtrak PD.  Unless they want to bring in the FBI, the incident having occurred on an interstate train, the FBI could come in any time they wanted to.


Edited by zephyr17, 23 May 2018 - 07:07 PM.

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#23 cpotisch

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Posted 23 May 2018 - 07:10 PM

Amtrak PD are "actual police".  They are an accredited agency with full police powers, they aren't just a bunch of security guard rent-a-cops, and they are the ones with jurisdiction for incidents onboard Amtrak trains in transit.  My understanding is that other agencies actually do not have jurisdiction, so it is up to Amtrak PD.  Unless they want to bring in the FBI, the incident having occurred on an interstate train, the FBI could come in any time they wanted to.

Thanks for the info on that. However, wouldn't the "government police" have jurisdiction since he was found by the side of the tracks?


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#24 zephyr17

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Posted 23 May 2018 - 07:17 PM

IMHO, since he was last seen as a passenger on the train and was found by the side of the tracks that train travels on, it probably still falls to Amtrak PD.  However, with that said, Amtrak PD is stretched pretty thin in California (Amtrak PD probably had to come up from the Bay Area, at best from Sacramento) and I think they'd be well served to bring in the FBI into this sooner rather than later if there is the least suspicion of foul play.  I do get the impression from the (very sketchy) news reports that jumping off/falling off/grabbing onto a moving train and then having to let go is a theory very much in play based on the somewhat dismissive quote from Amtrak PD.  Not unreasonable, you can get badly hurt by falling off a train moving at any speed.  Ballast isn't soft.

 

First question in my mind is was the guy seen on the ground during the stop in Truckee?


Edited by zephyr17, 23 May 2018 - 07:21 PM.

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#25 TiBike

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Posted 23 May 2018 - 07:34 PM

Amtrak cops are real cops with particular jurisdiction. Finely split jurisdictional lines are very common in California. For example, if a crime happens on state property, the CHP has jurisdiction, even if it's inside the city limits. Many agencies – school districts, universities, airport and port districts, parks – have their own police forces that have responsibility within their particular jurisdictions, even if contained within an incorporated city (or town – the terms are interchangeable in California).

 

It's very common for transit agencies to have their own, separate police jurisdiction. BART, for example, has its own internal police force. Caltrain, on the other hand, contracts with the San Mateo sheriff's office, which is why you often see San Mateo SO cars in downtown San Francisco (California cops have universal police authority – a cop anywhere in California is a cop everywhere).

 

Don't assume that the Truckee police aren't involved. They might be part of the investigation, but as a matter of protocol they would refer any questions to the lead agency, which would be Amtrak if they believe, as they seem to do, that the incident, whatever it was, happened on an Amtrak train or other property. Even if it ended somewhere else.


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#26 PVD

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Posted 23 May 2018 - 08:28 PM

An incident occurring in one jurisdiction does not normally mean that it isn't also within the purview of another. Overlaps are very common, determining who is the lead is often predetermined by agreement between agencies but not always. The laws of a particular state are important, because the ability of any Federal police to get involved with things that are state rather than Federal statutes is up to the states. The reports of the medical examiners will be extremely important, depending on their findings, there might not be any criminality. 



#27 Seaboard92

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Posted 23 May 2018 - 08:54 PM

I might add as someone who has done some journalistic work in the past. Most police agencies will not comment on an open investigation because it could skew the results of the investigation.

On second note Amtrak might not want the general public to know how easy it is to open vestibule doors. I could see where that could be an issue.
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#28 Devil's Advocate

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Posted 23 May 2018 - 08:55 PM

Having read several other stories of Amtrak passengers being found dead or unresponsive on the side of the tracks it would seem that foul play is rarely suspected, or at least rarely investigated.


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#29 TiBike

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Posted 23 May 2018 - 09:48 PM

Amtrak cops have primary jurisdiction in this case. It's not a matter of federal intervention. They have the same kind of responsibility for their trains and property in California as, say, BART cops would have.

 

Doesn't really matter whether their authority comes from the State of California or the federal government. The City of Monterey, for example, splits jurisdiction with Navy cops (Naval Postgraduate School) and Army cops (Presidio of Monterey). They've figured out who does what where. Other federal agencies sometimes get into the act – NCIS has been known to do drug investigations and arrests in Monterey proper when someone sells something to a service member.

 

But on a routine basis, police agencies work it out. No one wants to do someone else's work :-).

 

 

An incident occurring in one jurisdiction does not normally mean that it isn't also within the purview of another. Overlaps are very common, determining who is the lead is often predetermined by agreement between agencies but not always. The laws of a particular state are important, because the ability of any Federal police to get involved with things that are state rather than Federal statutes is up to the states. The reports of the medical examiners will be extremely important, depending on their findings, there might not be any criminality. 


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#30 Skyline

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Posted 24 May 2018 - 01:29 AM

When this is thoroughly investigated, I think this will be revealed as a homophobic attack bordering on attempted murder. Happens too often when one person is "out" as gay, or makes an benign overture toward someone insecure about his own place on the Kinsey scale.


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#31 anumberone

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Posted 24 May 2018 - 03:47 AM

In any case, it looks like a lot of passengers on that train are going to be interviewed and exactly where he was found in relation to the track should lead to the answer of this so far mystery.

Edited by anumberone, 24 May 2018 - 03:48 AM.

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#32 Devil's Advocate

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Posted 24 May 2018 - 09:43 AM

When this is thoroughly investigated, I think this will be revealed as a homophobic attack bordering on attempted murder. Happens too often when one person is "out" as gay, or makes an benign overture toward someone insecure about his own place on the Kinsey scale.

&

In any case, it looks like a lot of passengers on that train are going to be interviewed and exactly where he was found in relation to the track should lead to the answer of this so far mystery.


$100 worth of internet bucks says there will be no singularly conclusive resolution to this particular event. If you're inclined to disagree I only ask that you read up on the fate of other Amtrak passengers found by the side of the tracks and ask yourself how many of those events were resolved to your genuine satisfaction.  :ph34r:


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#33 Steve4031

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Posted 24 May 2018 - 09:43 AM

If I understand correctly there are no mechanisms for alerting the crew when a superliner car door is open while the train is in motion. I suspect the engineer and fireman are focusing on the track ahead for the most part. So it would be difficult for train crews to catch something amiss.

#34 Steve4031

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Posted 24 May 2018 - 09:51 AM

When this is thoroughly investigated, I think this will be revealed as a homophobic attack bordering on attempted murder. Happens too often when one person is "out" as gay, or makes an benign overture toward someone insecure about his own place on the Kinsey scale.

&

In any case, it looks like a lot of passengers on that train are going to be interviewed and exactly where he was found in relation to the track should lead to the answer of this so far mystery.


$100 worth of internet bucks says there will be no singularly conclusive resolution to this particular event. If you're inclined to disagree I only ask that you read up on the fate of other Amtrak passengers found by the side of the tracks and ask yourself how many of those events were resolved to your genuine satisfaction.  :ph34r:

Iirc a few of these incidents involved passengers who became confused, opened the door to the outside and stepped off the train. The bodies were found and investigation closed.

#35 Devil's Advocate

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Posted 24 May 2018 - 10:02 AM

 

 

When this is thoroughly investigated, I think this will be revealed as a homophobic attack bordering on attempted murder. Happens too often when one person is "out" as gay, or makes an benign overture toward someone insecure about his own place on the Kinsey scale.

&

In any case, it looks like a lot of passengers on that train are going to be interviewed and exactly where he was found in relation to the track should lead to the answer of this so far mystery.


$100 worth of internet bucks says there will be no singularly conclusive resolution to this particular event. If you're inclined to disagree I only ask that you read up on the fate of other Amtrak passengers found by the side of the tracks and ask yourself how many of those events were resolved to your genuine satisfaction.  :ph34r:

 


Iirc a few of these incidents involved passengers who became confused, opened the door to the outside and stepped off the train. The bodies were found and investigation closed.

 

 
In the majority of cases I tried to follow there was no specific evidence to corroborate confusion/delusion severe enough to explain voluntarily walking/jumping off a moving train.  Nor was there any rational explanation for how a supposedly confused/deluded person managed to close the door behind them as they walked/jumped to their death.  If they left the door open then why didn't anyone alert the staff?  Why didn't the staff report anything to their superiors?  These cases are statistically rare, which is good, but they also seem to fall into a black hole of bureaucratic indifference and low effort reasoning.


Edited by Devil's Advocate, 24 May 2018 - 10:05 AM.

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#36 KmH

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Posted 24 May 2018 - 11:07 AM

 I suspect the engineer and fireman are focusing on the track ahead for the most part.

Fireman? It was my understanding normally the engineer is the only person in the cab of Amtrak LD trains.


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#37 Seaboard92

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Posted 24 May 2018 - 12:13 PM

No the superliners don't have a door indicator light and likely never will. The crew depending on the location might also not see someone with an open door from the cab. It's actually next to impossible to tell without being in a curve.

Now I believe Amfleet Is might have a door indicator light. And before anyone says they need to lock the doors. That isn't a feasible option in case of a derailment. The best thing that can be done is to keep both latches on the door shut. Which is standard policy.
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#38 zephyr17

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Posted 24 May 2018 - 02:08 PM

 

 I suspect the engineer and fireman are focusing on the track ahead for the most part.

Fireman? It was my understanding normally the engineer is the only person in the cab of Amtrak LD trains.

 

Depends.  If the run is over 6 hours there is an engineer and assistant engineer (aka fireman) in the cab, per union agreement.


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#39 TiBike

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Posted 24 May 2018 - 05:59 PM

More info from the Truckee PD's Facebook page is here:

 

https://www.facebook...796320660566227

 

It's worth reading, but the key facts according to the post are that Salazar was found by the tracks at "the far east end of Truckee" (i.e. before it arrived at the station) and "the incident originated and appeared to be entirely contained on the Amtrak train". According to the post, "Aaron never disembarked in Truckee, as he never made it to the Truckee station, and there is no information to suggest Aaron had any connection to Truckee or interactions with anyone from Truckee".

 

The investigation was turned over to Amtrak "after our preliminary response" and the Truckee PD is "not actively involved in the investigation". The post opens by saying:

 

"It is the policy and best practice of most public safety organizations to not comment on another agency’s investigation, particularly if that investigation is active. However, since much of the information that is circulating on social media and in some news stories is inaccurate, speculative, or simply false, the Truckee Police Department would like to clarify a few things".

 

It closes with:

 

"The Truckee Police Department has no control over the release of substantive information in this incident, since another agency is handling the investigation. We do ask, out of respect for Aaron, his family, and for the investigative process that speculation, guessing, or rumors not be the basis for drawing conclusions", and refers further questions to Amtrak's police.

 

The timing is interesting. The post reiterates what the log stated, that the Truckee PD responded at about 11:30am, but then says "it was almost immediately discovered that Aaron was a ticketed passenger on the west bound Amtrak train that had passed through Truckee earlier that morning". 5(13) left Colfax on time at 11:48, and then was approx. 40 minutes early (give or take) the rest of the way to Emeryville.

 

It doesn't seem as if Amtrak PD treated it as a crime scene. 


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#40 crescent-zephyr

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 12:11 AM

reading the statements by the family on that Facebook page makes me sick. Amtrak police is telling the family it was a suicide attempt?

We (me included) are whining about boxed meals, meanwhile Passengers are being raped and beaten on Amtrak trains and Amtrak always says it's not their fault.
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