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Southwest Airlines Uncontained Engine Failure, One Fatality (4/17/18)


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#41 railiner

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Posted 03 May 2018 - 08:57 AM

I was reading a report yesterday...forgot just where...that explained the stress the multi-layered cabin windows sustain with each pressurization cycle...

I wonder if there was something that could be designed that would take the tension off the plastic or glass (not sure what each layer is), and have some type of mechanical device absorb the expansion and retraction?

Apparently, there may have been a tiny unseen flaw that suddenly cracked under the tension in this case, but thankfully it held long enough for the cabin to not lose pressure...

 

I've seen my car windshield crack in the winter, when my hot defroster hit a tiny chip in the cold glass...


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#42 PVD

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Posted 03 May 2018 - 01:18 PM

Curious as to how the orders have split between the GEnX and the RR on the 787....



#43 jis

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Posted 03 May 2018 - 01:54 PM

Curious as to how the orders have split between the GEnX and the RR on the 787....

I have an impression that GEnX had a significant lead based on the last definitive article on that in AvLeak. But that was a couple years back. I don't know for sure what the current situation is.



#44 cpotisch

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Posted 03 May 2018 - 04:42 PM

Just did a quick look around, and apparently most 787s have RR engines. But a bad sign is that the largest 787 operator in the world (ANA), is refitting 50 planes with GEnX engines. Does not seem to bode well for Rolls if the largest operator is giving up on them altogether...

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#45 jis

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Posted 03 May 2018 - 05:32 PM

Just did a quick look around, and apparently most 787s have RR engines. But a bad sign is that the largest 787 operator in the world (ANA), is refitting 50 planes with GEnX engines. Does not seem to bode well for Rolls if the largest operator is giving up on them altogether...

I thought they were about 50/50. Can you share where you looked around to that conclusion.

#46 PVD

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Posted 03 May 2018 - 05:35 PM

Did some scrounging for data, and the best I can come up with is about 75%-25%  GE over RR


Edited by PVD, 03 May 2018 - 05:36 PM.


#47 PVD

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Posted 03 May 2018 - 05:55 PM

https://www.bloomber...yce-engine-woes

 

It seems that most of the bigger users are siding with the GE

 

also glanced at production list data on planespotters...

 

with ANA replacing their RR with GE, that's 100 more GE (plus spares) for their 50 planes.


Edited by PVD, 03 May 2018 - 05:56 PM.


#48 cpotisch

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Posted 03 May 2018 - 09:04 PM

Did some scrounging for data, and the best I can come up with is about 75%-25%  GE over RR

I had thought GEs were used more as well, but saw a couple pages yesterday that said the Trents were more common. But looking around now, I can't seem to find those articles, so IDK.


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#49 Trogdor

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Posted 03 May 2018 - 09:11 PM

Where has ANA announced that they are switching engines to GE? Changing engine types on an already-built jet is a costly and extensive process, and thus is rarely ever done.

While originally Boeing wanted to design the 787 so that swapping between GE and RR engines was as simple as a regular engine change, that capability did not make it into the final aircraft design.

The only news info I can find about ANA 787 engines is that, two years ago, they said they were replacing all of their engines due to turbine blade problems. However, those were being replaced with newer RR engines.

As for the 75/25 split, I don’t think it’s that drastic. The general news items indicate the RR engine problem affects about 25% of the worldwide 787 fleet. However, not all RR-powered planes are affected. Certain models, including the Trent TEN engine, are excluded from the latest mess. Therefore. The actual breakdown of the fleet is about 25% with bad RR engines, some additional percent with “good” RR engines, and the rest with GEs.
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#50 cpotisch

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Posted 03 May 2018 - 09:49 PM

Changing engine types on an already-built jet is a costly and extensive process, and thus is rarely ever done.

It's easy on the 787, which was specially designed to operate interchangeably between the two engine types. To swap engines, all they have to do is slightly modify the pylons, stick on the new engines, and they're done.


Edited by cpotisch, 03 May 2018 - 09:51 PM.

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#51 Devil's Advocate

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Posted 03 May 2018 - 09:55 PM

 

Changing engine types on an already-built jet is a costly and extensive process, and thus is rarely ever done.

It's easy on the 787, which was specially designed to operate interchangeably between the two engine types. To swap engines, all they have to do is slightly modify the pylons, stick on the new engines, and they're done.

None of the stories to which you linked claims NH is replacing RR with GE. Although the engines themselves are periodically swapped for maintenance and repair the engine type that was supplied at delivery is almost always the same type installed when the aircraft is decommissioned or written off decades later. Replacing 100 engines is a huge and expensive undertaking and RR has little if any incentive to assist NH with moving to another engine manufacturer.


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#52 cpotisch

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Posted 03 May 2018 - 09:58 PM

 

 

Changing engine types on an already-built jet is a costly and extensive process, and thus is rarely ever done.

It's easy on the 787, which was specially designed to operate interchangeably between the two engine types. To swap engines, all they have to do is slightly modify the pylons, stick on the new engines, and they're done.

None of the stories to which you linked claims NH is replacing RR with GE. Although the engines themselves are periodically swapped for maintenance and repair the engine type that was supplied at delivery is almost always the same type installed when the aircraft is decommissioned or written off decades later. Replacing 100 engines is a huge and expensive undertaking and RR has little if any incentive to assist NH with moving to another engine manufacturer.

 

I noticed that I had misread after I posted, and subsequently removed the links.


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#53 Ryan

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Posted 03 May 2018 - 10:10 PM

Changing engine types on an already-built jet is a costly and extensive process, and thus is rarely ever done.

It's easy on the 787, which was specially designed to operate interchangeably between the two engine types. To swap engines, all they have to do is slightly modify the pylons, stick on the new engines, and they're done.

 
You cut off the Burninator's very next sentence...
 

While originally Boeing wanted to design the 787 so that swapping between GE and RR engines was as simple as a regular engine change, that capability did not make it into the final aircraft design.


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#54 railiner

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Posted 04 May 2018 - 12:13 AM

Did anyone see this report this evening?

Very troubling to hear alleged improper conduct by supervisor's over SWA mechanics pressuring them to ignore safety flaws, and general climate of poor safety 'culture'...

https://www.nbcnewyo...-481712101.html


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#55 PVD

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Posted 04 May 2018 - 06:10 AM

I went back to the articles on the ANA swap, and when you read the whole article, (not just headline and summary -I' plead guilty) it is clear that they are swapping RR for RR, not going to GE so I was certainly wrong on that......


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#56 jis

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 08:44 AM

Engine inspection procedures under examination after evidence points to premature fatigue crack in fan blade.

 

http://www.mro-netwo...m56-7b-failures



#57 railiner

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 09:12 AM

I wonder if the aircraft would have had "Concorde sized" windows, would that have prevented the fatal accident of that passenger?   Not that I am advocating tiny windows, as with that logic, the next progression would be to have no windows.   Maybe some other way to harden the windows further?


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#58 jis

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 09:24 AM

In the past, there have been examples of uncontained engine failure that caused body panels to puncture where there was no window, leading to explosive depressurization. Absence of windows is no guarantee for safety in the face of such failures.


Edited by jis, 08 May 2018 - 10:35 AM.

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#59 Devil's Advocate

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 10:23 AM

I wonder if the aircraft would have had "Concorde sized" windows, would that have prevented the fatal accident of that passenger? Not that I am advocating tiny windows, as with that logic, the next progression would be to have no windows. Maybe some other way to harden the windows further?


The 737 family is the world's most popular mainline commercial aircraft and has no known issues with window design or any predisposition toward uncontained engine failures leading to explosive decompression. Nor does the 737 need to survive the Concorde's unique mission and flight profile. This isn't the de Havilland Comet (previous example of known window and skin issues) and if the 737 had major design problems we should be seeing similar events all over the world. That being said, WN has been caught excessively delaying and improperly reporting mandatory maintenance and safety work in the past and it's not inconceivable that they didn't learn their lesson last time. I find it genuinely perplexing how a culture that reacts so strongly to airline related incidents and accidents is so quick to return to the false hope of self-regulation the moment things quite down again.


Edited by Devil's Advocate, 08 May 2018 - 10:26 AM.

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#60 PVD

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 11:11 AM

one of the selling points of the new generation 787 over its competition is that it has larger windows....if people only realized that windshield panels on planes crack way more often than passenger windows...


Edited by PVD, 08 May 2018 - 11:12 AM.





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