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No more charters & special moves: 3/28 Memo fr Anderson


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#321 Thirdrail7

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Posted 20 May 2018 - 11:12 AM

I can't speak for the German operation but let's expand and help you out with the United States operation:

 

United States
Step 1: send your proposal of a trip in. Include the same basic information to Amtrak. You may or may not get a response on it.

STEP 1(A): Wait as Amtrak contacts EVERY HOST railroad and EVERY DIVISION and facility your special little train will touch and wait to see if they will support the move
Step 2: if it's doable you receive preliminary approval. Meaning you can market it but Amtrak hasn't set up the contract yet. With a preliminary price.

Step 2(A):Wait for every host railroad to draw up THEIR contracts, waivers and operating plans and send them to Amtrak.  Sometimes, they don't get back to Amtrak in a timely fashion either. Additionally, wait for the facilities and manpower reports from the impacted facilities
Step 3:market the trip

Step 3(A): While that is going on, the very small Special Movements, Groups and Charters desk is still working on follow up with the host railroads for you special trip and the 50 other groups, private car operators and  special movements, including our own freight services and equipment moves...which they are also in charge of.
Step 4: usually a week out sometimes even on the day of. A final quote (usually higher) and the actual contract.

Step 4(A) Receive the final costs for the expense since things have changed since this was proposed.  To support your move to the middle of nowhere, we have to bring in an extra crew. That is because there was a service disruption in the middle of the week and now crews and back up forces have to be brought on overtime. In some cases, we have to bring in support, including equipment  from other crew bases, driving up costs and depleting work forces from other locations.
Step 5: operate the train.
Step 5(A): People complain about the last minute operations and manipulations and even want penalties for last minute changes.

Step 5(B) A high ranking official  seethes for years but Mr. Boardman thinks it is important part of the railroad.

Step 5© Mr Boardman retires yet this seething high ranking official still works here.

Step 5(D) Mr. Anderson arrives, hears about this operation,  says something like  "this is ridiculous" and says "Don't operate the trains unless manpower is normally available and there is no impact to our  trains, equipment or power. We'll find other ways to make up for the missing revenue."

Step 5(E) Don't operate the train unless there is a long standing agreement in place


As you can see the German Deutsche Bahn is far better to operate a charter on because they stick to the initial price, and contract to run before a week out. It's a much less stressful situation for operators.

 

This is probably the song involved while the Germans draft their operating plan, which probably doesn't involve multiple railroads with multiple operating rules and procedures:

 

 

Also of note is the fact Deutsche Bahn operates over 24,000 passenger trains a day with over 80 percent of them being on time within five minutes. And on some days they will have up to twenty plus charter steam trains, and other trains plying their 20,000 ish miles of track.

 

 

Sounds like they have an extensive passenger network that has the backing of the various entities and interests. Does Amtrak??

 

 

You're welcome, Seaboard. You're welcome!


Edited by Thirdrail7, 20 May 2018 - 11:13 AM.

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They say laughter is the best medicine. Obviously they never posted on AU.


#322 jis

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Posted 20 May 2018 - 11:37 AM

As I said, Apples to Hippopotamus comparison :D


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#323 Just-Thinking-51

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Posted 20 May 2018 - 06:34 PM

I agree with Charters part, but why screw the PV bit?

How hard is it to tack a extra car on?

If Amtrak is getting rid of outside charters are they getting rid of there inside charters? What about the school special from Florida. What about a Congress special? A football special?

#324 Thirdrail7

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Posted 20 May 2018 - 06:54 PM

I agree with Charters part, but why screw the PV bit?

How hard is it to tack a extra car on?

If Amtrak is getting rid of outside charters are they getting rid of there inside charters? What about the school special from Florida. What about a Congress special? A football special?

 

Who said they were getting rid of outside charters? Who said they are getting rid of inside charters?  Only buffs on boards and the initial "sound the alarms without information" even suggested that,

 

As previously stated, exceptions to the general private car and charter/special guidelines will be decided on a case by case basis.


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#325 Just-Thinking-51

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Posted 20 May 2018 - 07:05 PM

So add the [Case by Case review] part to the above expanded [How it gets done]. The question become when does Amtrak determines the [Case by Case Review] part. The day before or within 7 days of the initial application. Makes a small difference....


Side note DB Rail has a service that will get you paths for your train both inside of and outside of Germany. A one stop shopping service for a fee of course.

Edited by Just-Thinking-51, 20 May 2018 - 07:07 PM.


#326 Thirdrail7

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Posted 20 May 2018 - 10:17 PM

So add the [Case by Case review] part to the above expanded [How it gets done]. The question become when does Amtrak determines the [Case by Case Review] part. The day before or within 7 days of the initial application. Makes a small difference....

 

That, as always will vary on a case by case basis. It is easier to determine if you're dealing with your own territory (such as sports team specials on the NEC.) However, what if multiple hosts are involved? Even if Amtrak is inclined to operate the extra, you still have to wait for every facility and host involved to  say "yea" or "nay". Unless something has changed, CSX will contact EVERY Superintendent of EVERY subdivision the train will traverse and get approval. All it takes is for one of them to say " I can't handle it" for the request to be turned down.

 

However, it takes time which is why it can literally take weeks (and in some cases months) to work out this process, particularly since the railroads change every day. Does anyone think that CSX or NS for that matter wants an extra floating around ALX right now?

 

That's why your trip can be cancelled at a moments notice and that is why sometimes approval can come at the last minute.


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#327 CHvision

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 12:51 AM

http://trn.trains.co...ation-platforms

 

More to what's going on


Edited by CHvision, 19 June 2018 - 12:51 AM.


#328 Seaboard92

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 09:35 AM

That's our punishment for the NYC 3 having the VP of Metro North, General manager of the providence and Worcester, a young kid who just bought an SPV, and I forget the last person riding the platform on a regional between New Haven and New York.

This is just another standard over reaction by Gardner and Anderson. This rule is only proposed right now so hopefully RPCA and AAPRCO can get it struck down. I honestly don't see that happening because neither man is known to back down.

For years there has been an unwritten rule that states you can not ride on an open platform, or open vestibule on the platform on the NEC. The problem though with unwritten rules is not everyone knows about them, and they really aren't the most effective.

The solution I think we should do is codify the rule on the NEC and leave the national network stuff alone. But that's common sense so that will not happen.

It should be noted that the owner of the Portland should know the unwritten rule and this was his last trip before retirement (as many owners are giving up their small businesses thanks to Gardner and his misinformation to Anderson) so he might have just said. "Well if I retire they can't really punish me and just did it anyway." But I don't see that happening.

I can't wait for the punishment from the billboards at the puppet masters Building in Philly. That should be most interesting.

Some of us have found an interesting way to retaliate against this rule to prove Anderson and Gardner are a bunch of hypocrites on a bunch of their new rules. And I can't wait to see this project come to fruition. But that's all I can say as one of the advisors on the project. But at least it used my degree.

Edited by Seaboard92, 19 June 2018 - 09:38 AM.

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#329 crescent-zephyr

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 10:07 AM

It's 2018. Im surprissd open air platforms have been allowed to be occupied on the mainline at all in recent years.

And not just amtrak and the mainline rules. Im surprised any private car insurrance covers it.

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#330 Seaboard92

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 10:21 AM

It's 2018. Im surprissd open air platforms have been allowed to be occupied on the mainline at all in recent years.

And not just amtrak and the mainline rules. Im surprised any private car insurrance covers it.

In the last fifty years I can only think of two incidents involving an open platform.

The first one being on the PRR 120 back in the late 70s early 80s where a drunk passenger climbed up from the platform onto the roof of the car and contacted the catenary. The second being someone who was riding an open platform when T was running open end first on an AAPRCO special. And that person was hit in the head by a rock in an area known for trains getting rocked.

Other then that open vestibules and platform riding are fairly safe. And there haven't been any major incidents involving them. Even till the late 60s it was possible to ride an open platform on the Wabash Cannon Ball as it was regularly assigned.
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#331 crescent-zephyr

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 10:28 AM

I didn't say it was unsafe... I said im surprised it's been allowed both by the railroads and by the private cars insurrance.

I've ridden open vestibules and open platforms on the mainline... It is fun, im not arguing that. Ha. Although even a light rain gets painful at 79 mph as you know im sure!

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#332 Seaboard92

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 11:48 AM

I didn't say it was unsafe... I said im surprised it's been allowed both by the railroads and by the private cars insurrance.

I've ridden open vestibules and open platforms on the mainline... It is fun, im not arguing that. Ha. Although even a light rain gets painful at 79 mph as you know im sure!


Wait till you do it in a pounding super cell thunderstorm at night at 80 mph with a steam locomotive pulling you. Even with my hard hat on, and safety glasses on it was painful as come be. But it's probably one of my most cherished memories.

We were deadheading forty miles from Joliet going at track speed with 765 and twelve cars. I remember watching the Mars light lighting up the sheets of rain. It was special. Just wow.
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#333 Bob Dylan

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 11:54 AM

It may have been exciting but it sounds unsafe,uncomfortable and actually sort of dumb!🤔( I'm old enough to have gotten to ride in lots of open vestibles and platforms but not in bad weather)
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#334 Seaboard92

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 02:09 PM

It may have been exciting but it sounds unsafe,uncomfortable and actually sort of dumb!( I'm old enough to have gotten to ride in lots of open vestibles and platforms but not in bad weather)


We were all part of the crew though we wouldn't have let passengers do it. Crew life is the best life. My partner for that trip who is a magazine reporter in his actual day to day life sat in the front of the dome. The hardened railroaders were all out there.
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#335 railiner

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 02:26 PM

 

It may have been exciting but it sounds unsafe,uncomfortable and actually sort of dumb!( I'm old enough to have gotten to ride in lots of open vestibles and platforms but not in bad weather)


We were all part of the crew though we wouldn't have let passengers do it. Crew life is the best life. My partner for that trip who is a magazine reporter in his actual day to day life sat in the front of the dome. The hardened railroaders were all out there.

 

Next to riding in a cab, I'll take the front seat in a short dome over any other seat on a train, including an open rear platform.... :)


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#336 zephyr17

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 05:50 PM

 

 

It may have been exciting but it sounds unsafe,uncomfortable and actually sort of dumb!( I'm old enough to have gotten to ride in lots of open vestibles and platforms but not in bad weather)


We were all part of the crew though we wouldn't have let passengers do it. Crew life is the best life. My partner for that trip who is a magazine reporter in his actual day to day life sat in the front of the dome. The hardened railroaders were all out there.

 

Next to riding in a cab, I'll take the front seat in a short dome over any other seat on a train, including an open rear platform.... :)

 

Me too.


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#337 neroden

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 09:18 PM

Open platforms are about as safe as it gets, for an interesting reason: they *look* potentially unsafe.  Therefore people are actually careful when they're on them.

 

It's things which *look* safe -- which look safe enough for people to start being careless -- which are dangerous.


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#338 Seaboard92

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Posted 20 June 2018 - 12:04 AM

Open platforms are about as safe as it gets, for an interesting reason: they *look* potentially unsafe.  Therefore people are actually careful when they're on them.
 
It's things which *look* safe -- which look safe enough for people to start being careless -- which are dangerous.


And don't forget in a lot of cases the platforms are under the watchful eye of staff almost constantly. And I will speak just for myself but I will not allow children unattended, or anyone under the influence of any substance out onto the platform.

Attached File  ImageUploadedByAmtrak Forum1529470932.706644.jpg   94.65KB   12 downloads
This is the picture of the offending event that caused this new ruling. What should be noted one of those is a Vice President at Metro North the track owner in the photo, another is a marketing manager, and operations manager from the Providence and Worcester which has trackage rights at this location.
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