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Retiming Lake Shore limited


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#1 railgeekteen

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 11:17 AM

As you know, Ohio should get a daytime train. Cleveland has two trains, but both stop in the middle of the night. The Lake Shore limited should be retimed to give Cleveland a daytime train, as most of the route is served by other trains.



#2 Ryan

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 11:18 AM

What is your proposed schedule?
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#3 railgeekteen

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 11:20 AM

I don't know the exact schedule, this is just an idea that I have to improve the national network. If this is a big problem for some reason than a second Lake Shore Limited servicing Ohio in the daytime would be a good idea. 



#4 jebr

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 11:46 AM

The biggest current problem is that the LSL is currently timed in part to make connections from the western LD trains and serve as a cleanup train of sorts should other connections be missed. The most recent official proposal I've heard was to switch the CL and the LSL's Chicago departure time, but that still wouldn't get Ohio a daytime train.

 

The only way to get a daytime train would be to create a second daily LSL train, which isn't a bad idea but someone needs to fund it. Ohio wouldn't even take the funding for the 3 C's rail corridor, so I doubt there's going to be much political will, especially in Ohio, to help pay for a second daily LSL.



#5 Trogdor

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 12:02 PM

It has been looked at many times before.  The problems are, generally:

 

The Lake Shore is the "late train" to connect from western trains.  In order to serve Ohio in daylight, you would lose all of your connections, and also don't have a backup in case trains miss the connection to the Capitol Limited.  The westbound situation isn't any better.

 

The value of the connections is greater than the additional revenue you'd get from serving Cleveland during the day.

 

If Cleveland is served midday, then Chicago and New York wind up with overnight/late night (or very early morning) times.  Then you're just trading one bad time for another (or two).

 

There's also the issue of limited flexibility in trying to avoid the train being at CHI or NYP during their respective rush hours due to limited platform space (and this is the case even without trackwork projects in New York).


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#6 Philly Amtrak Fan

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 12:23 PM

Retimed, no. Second train, yes.


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Trains Traveled: Broadway Limited (CHI-Harrisburg, PA), Three Rivers (Harrisburg, PA-CHI, Altoona, PA-CHI, PHL-CHI), Capitol Limited (CHI-WAS), Lake Shore Limited (NYP-CHI), , Silver Meteor (PHL-ORL), Southwest Chief (CHI-LAX), California Zephyr (CHI-SLC, SLC-EMY), City of New Orleans and/or Illini (CHI-Champaign, IL), Texas Eagle (CHI-DAL)
Bring back the Broadway Limited (or Three Rivers or any Chicago-Pittsburgh-Philly train)!
 
https://www.facebook...roadwayLimited/


#7 jis

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 12:35 PM

Retimed, no. Second train, yes.

At this point we collectively break into the Abba song "Money, money, money ... " :D


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#8 Railroad Bill

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 12:45 PM

We Cleveland riders have gotten used to the current schedule. Like the ability to make all the westbound Chicago LD trains. Like the idea of an alternative from the CL if our western LD trains are late. Like no rush hour traffic in CLE at 2 & 3 am :P   And the EB  LSL has a good time in the summer, Nearly light all the way to NY.  So, knowing that there will be no money from the state to add trains.  We just live with it and go on.  


Amtrak Trains Ridden So Far:    86,889 miles and counting
Lake Shore Ltd, Capitol Ltd, Pennsylvanian, NE Corridors, Crescent, City of New Orleans, Empire Builder, California Zephyr, Hoosier, SW Chief, Surfliners, California Capitol Corridors, Coast Starlight, Cascades. Texas Eagle, San Joaquins, Missouri River Runner,Cardinal, Downeaster, Silver Meteor, Keystones, Auto Train, Adirondack, Lincoln Service, Illinois Zephyr, Carl Sandburg, Texas Eagle Detour Rt, 2013 Autumn Express Tour PHL, Silver Star, Sunset Limited -Acela Express-  2015 Autumn Express ALB - Empire Service Via Rail Corridor Trains Cobourg-Ottawa-Montreal,(round trip)  The Ocean (round trip)--   2,250 miles


#9 jebr

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 12:46 PM

Looking at the schedule, if fundling became available and if the host railroads were generally cooperative ( :giggle: ) you could put a second train nine hours ahead of the current LSL schedule eastbound (12:30 PM departure Chicago, 6:20 PM Toledo departure, 8:50 PM Cleveland departure, 9:23 AM arrival into NYP) and 8 hours and 15 minutes after the current LSL westbound (11:55 PM departure NYP, 12:00 PM departure Cleveland, 2:45 PM departure Toledo, 6:00 PM arrival Chicago.) It wouldn't be my choice for the once-daily schedule, but it would fit the bill as a good second daily train schedule. It offers the Ohio daylight service that's been desired, it offers a late-night train westbound along the Empire Service corridor (currently the latest one that goes past Albany is the current LSL outside of Friday's Ethan Allen Express schedule,) and it avoids the worst of rush hour and puts arriving trains right after (or near the end) of rush hour so a late train won't find itself hitting rush hour most of the time.

 

You'd also have the benefit of it still being late enough in the day for people to connect from the Pere Marquette, Wolverine, CONO, Lincoln Service, Illinois Zephyr, and Hiawatha. The arriving train could connect with the City of New Orleans, the Hiawatha, and the Greyhound Thruway to Kalamazoo, Dearborn, and Detroit. Going a bit earlier would restore a few more connections (there's the Wolverine at 5:50 PM, the Illinois Zephyr at 5:55 PM, the Pere Marquette at 6:30 PM, and the Lincoln Service at 7:00 PM) but then you'd hit rush hour or get too close to the current LSL schedule.

 

ETA: The Boston section would arrive from Chicago about 11:00 AM and depart South Station for Chicago about 9:05 PM. There wouldn't be any issues with rush hour there either and the times overall seem decent. This all assumes a second train would be able to use the current schedule timing, just shifted.



#10 ParanoidAndroid

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 12:49 PM

Maybe a CHI to Niag. Falls day train? Would go through major population centers CHI, South Bend, Northern Ohio, Erie, and Buffalo in daylight. Maybe to PGH?

Edit: The schedule above would work better.

CLE-CIN should be farther along now, had Kasich not canceled it, saying that 'nobody rides trains', thus creating a feedback loop.

Once CHI-IND is done improving, CHI-HUN (through CIN) could be done in daylight. Only a place to store it in HUN is needed (similar to the Palmetto in SAV).

Edited by ParanoidAndroid, 13 March 2018 - 12:52 PM.

I have ridden Cascades #516 (SEA-STW), Coast Starlight #14 (LAX-SLO), Southwest Chief #4 (LAX-CHI), Cardinal #50 (CHI-NYP), Northeast Regional #85 (NYP-WAS), Capitol Limited #30 (HFY-WAS), Coast Starlight #14 (LAX-PDX), Coast Starlight #11 (SLO-LAX), and many Pacific Surfliners with Amtrak. I have observed, including the previous, California Zephyr #5 at SAC (lucky), what I guess to be Crescent #19 (at WAS) and Silver Meteor #97 (at WAS), Empire Builder #28 at PDX, and Sunset Limited #2/Texas Eagle #422 at LAX. I have also ridden the Hokutosei in Japan, Ueno - Sapporo (now discontinued).


#11 Philly Amtrak Fan

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 01:04 PM

Maybe a CHI to Niag. Falls day train? Would go through major population centers CHI, South Bend, Northern Ohio, Erie, and Buffalo in daylight. Maybe to PGH?

Edit: The schedule above would work better.

CLE-CIN should be farther along now, had Kasich not canceled it, saying that 'nobody rides trains', thus creating a feedback loop.

Once CHI-IND is done improving, CHI-HUN (through CIN) could be done in daylight. Only a place to store it in HUN is needed (similar to the Palmetto in SAV).

 

I have suggested several times to just reschedule the Cardinal to run CIN-IND-CHI outside the graveyard shift. That's what the peak audience should be (it isn't because CIN-IND is during the graveyard shift). You would lose western connections in CHI. Would Cincinnati passengers rather get up at 3am in the morning instead? I'd keep the Hoosier State schedule as is to retain the western connections on those days. Yes it would be a different schedule on different days, so what? 


Trains Traveled: Broadway Limited (CHI-Harrisburg, PA), Three Rivers (Harrisburg, PA-CHI, Altoona, PA-CHI, PHL-CHI), Capitol Limited (CHI-WAS), Lake Shore Limited (NYP-CHI), , Silver Meteor (PHL-ORL), Southwest Chief (CHI-LAX), California Zephyr (CHI-SLC, SLC-EMY), City of New Orleans and/or Illini (CHI-Champaign, IL), Texas Eagle (CHI-DAL)
Bring back the Broadway Limited (or Three Rivers or any Chicago-Pittsburgh-Philly train)!
 
https://www.facebook...roadwayLimited/


#12 Thirdrail7

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 01:54 PM

I believe this is complicated by operational issues as well.  Unless you're forking over another set of equipment, 49(pd) turns to 48(sd).  If you move 48 to an earlier departure time, it is likely that you'll need to move 49 earlier to give it time to turn.

 

If memory serves, moving 49 is problematic because NS wants 29 and 49 operating in close proximity so they can have a (somewhat clear) path. If they still insist on that, you'll need to move 29 as well.

 

This isn't as simple as just changing times.


They say laughter is the best medicine. Obviously they never posted on AU.


#13 jis

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 02:14 PM

When all that you have to satisfy is the neat columns in a limited timetable spreadsheet, such detail may fall by the wayside sometimes. :D


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#14 railgeekteen

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 02:44 PM

 

Maybe a CHI to Niag. Falls day train? Would go through major population centers CHI, South Bend, Northern Ohio, Erie, and Buffalo in daylight. Maybe to PGH?

Edit: The schedule above would work better.

CLE-CIN should be farther along now, had Kasich not canceled it, saying that 'nobody rides trains', thus creating a feedback loop.

Once CHI-IND is done improving, CHI-HUN (through CIN) could be done in daylight. Only a place to store it in HUN is needed (similar to the Palmetto in SAV).

 

I have suggested several times to just reschedule the Cardinal to run CIN-IND-CHI outside the graveyard shift. That's what the peak audience should be (it isn't because CIN-IND is during the graveyard shift). You would lose western connections in CHI. Would Cincinnati passengers rather get up at 3am in the morning instead? I'd keep the Hoosier State schedule as is to retain the western connections on those days. Yes it would be a different schedule on different days, so what? 

 

I'm all for better times for CIN, but it would be a shame to cross the New River Gorge at night.


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#15 neroden

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 02:50 AM

Retimed, no. Second train, yes.

At this point we collectively break into the Abba song "Money, money, money ... " :D


I believe it would pay for itself, operationally and in rolling stock terms.

If you could get it through the problematic "host railroad mob shakedown process", that is. :-(
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#16 neroden

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 02:51 AM

because NS wants 29 and 49 operating in close proximity so they can have a (somewhat clear) path. If they still insist on that,


And here we have a reference to the mob shakedown process in action...

The only long-term solution is to get the tracks out of the hands of these mobsters. As Richard Anderson has said, they are violating the agreement by which they were allowed to stop operating passenger service themselves: violating both the letter and the spirit. If they won't comply with their public service obligations, they need to have the tracks removed from them and put into responsible hands.

Edited by neroden, 23 March 2018 - 02:53 AM.

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#17 IndyLions

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 05:40 PM

In the name of eminent domain (or some other made up legal excuse) the US should have taken the tracks back years ago...


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#18 railiner

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 09:02 PM

In the name of eminent domain (or some other made up legal excuse) the US should have taken the tracks back years ago...


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Never mind that... they should never have approved the sale and breakup of Conrail to CSX and NS....
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metroblue?

okay on the blue!

#19 Just-Thinking-51

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Posted 30 March 2018 - 02:33 PM

What is your proposed schedule?


A pitch for a second daily frequency on the Lake Shore Limited route, running from Syracuse to New York City overnight.

Great Lakes Express

(Eastbound)
Chicago 10:00 AM
Toledo 3:50 PM
Cleveland 6:20 PM
Buffalo 9:21 PM
Syracuse 11:48 PM
Albany 4:15 AM
New York 6:53 AM


(Westbound)
New York 11:40 PM
Albany 3:05 AM
Syracuse 5:49 AM
Buffalo 7:59 AM
Cleveland 11:45 AM
Toledo 2:15 PM
Chicago 5:45 PM

(schedules are approximate and indicative only)


A schedule for a second train in the LSL route by Neroden.
Of course it not a retiming of the LSL. But its a elevator pitch, that written down.
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#20 jis

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Posted 30 March 2018 - 02:40 PM

It is truly sad that we cannot do NY to Chicago in 16-17 hours anymore, while similar distances are done by many LD trains in other countries in 17 hours or less with as many as 7-9 stops on the way, with max speed restricted 81mph, even in maddeningly dense passenger and freight traffic.


Edited by jis, 31 March 2018 - 12:12 PM.





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