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Southwest Chief reroute via Wichita and Amarillo?


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#41 Palmetto

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 01:41 PM

Because New Mexico has done nothing to install PTC, according to you.  Am I wrong to deduce, then, that Amtrak would not be allowed to run through New Mexico on non-PTC territory?

 

And why did you quote me to explain your facts?  My post had nothing to do with the populations of Amarillo nor Lubbock.



#42 The 3 Ducks Quacking

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 03:48 PM

Because New Mexico has done nothing to install PTC, according to you.  Am I wrong to deduce, then, that Amtrak would not be allowed to run through New Mexico on non-PTC territory?

 

And why did you quote me to explain your facts?  My post had nothing to do with the populations of Amarillo nor Lubbock.

yes, you are completely wrong  ---After the Washington wreck of Amtrak one of the senators on the Transportation committee reported they had or were going to submit a bill that would prohibit Amtrak from operating on non PTC routes after Dec.31,2018.  Now have they done that?   Only time will tell. There is only two states that that would effect, New Mexico and one other state.  Earlier posts on this thread were on subject of population and you were one of those.   ONLY the federal gov't. will tell Amtrak where the can or cannot go.



#43 Palmetto

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 05:45 PM

 

Because New Mexico has done nothing to install PTC, according to you.  Am I wrong to deduce, then, that Amtrak would not be allowed to run through New Mexico on non-PTC territory?

 

And why did you quote me to explain your facts?  My post had nothing to do with the populations of Amarillo nor Lubbock.

yes, you are completely wrong  ---After the Washington wreck of Amtrak one of the senators on the Transportation committee reported they had or were going to submit a bill that would prohibit Amtrak from operating on non PTC routes after Dec.31,2018.  Now have they done that?   Only time will tell. There is only two states that that would effect, New Mexico and one other state.  Earlier posts on this thread were on subject of population and you were one of those.   ONLY the federal gov't. will tell Amtrak where the can or cannot go.

 

If you say so.



#44 jis

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 10:51 PM

The PTC law says that beyond the end of 2018 certain types of trains including passenger trains are prohibited from operating on lines with no PTC, barring certain exceptions (which BTW the segment between La Junta and Lamy would fall under). It also provides FRA with considerable latitude to grant exceptions on a case by case basis. So no, things are not as cut and dried as some seem to believe here.

 

My educated guess is that no service will be halted for the lack of PTC come Jan 1, 2019.



#45 Palmetto

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 07:43 AM

Thanks for that clarification.  It would be interesting to learn just where Amtrak is operating on lines NOW that are PTC-equipped.



#46 Philly Amtrak Fan

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 08:24 AM

 

Because New Mexico has done nothing to install PTC, according to you.  Am I wrong to deduce, then, that Amtrak would not be allowed to run through New Mexico on non-PTC territory?

 

And why did you quote me to explain your facts?  My post had nothing to do with the populations of Amarillo nor Lubbock.

yes, you are completely wrong  ---After the Washington wreck of Amtrak one of the senators on the Transportation committee reported they had or were going to submit a bill that would prohibit Amtrak from operating on non PTC routes after Dec.31,2018.  Now have they done that?   Only time will tell. There is only two states that that would effect, New Mexico and one other state. 

 

 

What's the other state?


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#47 The 3 Ducks Quacking

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 09:33 AM

Thanks for that clarification.  It would be interesting to learn just where Amtrak is operating on lines NOW that are PTC-equipped.

BNSF currently has theirs on their web site. 



#48 neroden

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 04:16 PM

BNSF is much more transparent and straightforward than most of the other Class Is.  UP doesn't publish their PTC status in detail, though rumor has it that over half is done.  Last I read, there is NO working PTC on NS, CSX, or CN.  Not sure about CP.

 

 

I continue to assert that BNSF has no particular interest in having Amtrak run on a route which they barely use any more, want to get rid of, but are somehow still stuck owning.

 

I'm pretty sure they would happily move Amtrak over to the Southern Transcon once it's double-tracked (and with appropriate standards for station design, as I said, passenger sidings and platforms on both sides, and of course funding for the trackwork at Belen and so forth). 

 

I don't think "we might want Denver-Albuqerque service eventually, so we need to keep running a train over Raton Pass" is a good argument for hobbling the Southwest Chief.  If we actually had some sort of movement towards Denver-Albuquerque service, that would be different, but we don't.  Colorado can't even be convinced to run service from Denver to Fort Collins, and this is with a relatively pro-public-transport administration.  Out of state service is something they won't even look at.

There is currently a PTC waiver for routes with a "de minimis" number of passenger trains per day.  I don't know how long that's going to last, but it's not a good thing to rely on; that sort of waiver has a tendency to shrink over time.


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#49 Rover

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 07:41 PM

I think that Albuquerque should have service, just for the sake of this:

 


Edited by Rover, 27 January 2018 - 08:00 PM.

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#50 jis

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 10:25 PM

I am almost certain that there will be no PTC required if the max speed is below some threshold.

 

Also note that just because a track is equipped for PTC does not mean every train running on that tracks is running under PTC. At present and even past 1/1/19 PTC will not become a universally mandatory item. There will be exceptions to deal with operations under failure conditions under some enforced restrictions, like max speed allowed etc. Considering how rickety most of the PTC implementations are, absent such the whole system would grind to a standstill. ;)



#51 neroden

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 05:11 PM

It's a pity the complete fools running the US railroads didn't just adopt off-the-shelf ERTMS/ETCS, which was *already debugged* and is quickly becoming the worldwide standard (China is using a very slight variant).  It's quite stable and has been for years.


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#52 jis

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 06:15 PM

India is going whole hog ERTMS Level 2 for the entire network. It was declared as policy. It also plans to electrify 24,400 rt kms in five years, which is almost unbelievable. But even if they actually do half of that it is still phenomenal.


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#53 neroden

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 08:12 PM

India puts us to shame.  We live in an underdeveloped, backwards country.


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#54 The 3 Ducks Quacking

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Posted 05 February 2018 - 09:07 AM

India puts us to shame.  We live in an underdeveloped, backwards country.

No we put own selves to shame by not standing up and enforcing what our forefathers gave us. We gave opportunity for the Super Conducting Maglev  to be dreamed and designed in our country, but because of politics it was developed and commercialized in Japan.  That was the first generation of superconducting Maglev.  The same inventors designed a 2nd generation of Superconducting maglev and were in process of development  and were meeting same obstacles as before. ( Politics)  One has died.



#55 jis

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Posted 05 February 2018 - 09:54 AM

What has Superconducting Maglev got to do with enhancing safety of operation of railroads completely beats me I am afraid. ;)



#56 bretton88

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 09:08 AM

BNSF is much more transparent and straightforward than most of the other Class Is.  UP doesn't publish their PTC status in detail, though rumor has it that over half is done.  Last I read, there is NO working PTC on NS, CSX, or CN.  Not sure about CP.
 
 
I continue to assert that BNSF has no particular interest in having Amtrak run on a route which they barely use any more, want to get rid of, but are somehow still stuck owning.
 
I'm pretty sure they would happily move Amtrak over to the Southern Transcon once it's double-tracked (and with appropriate standards for station design, as I said, passenger sidings and platforms on both sides, and of course funding for the trackwork at Belen and so forth). 
 
I don't think "we might want Denver-Albuqerque service eventually, so we need to keep running a train over Raton Pass" is a good argument for hobbling the Southwest Chief.  If we actually had some sort of movement towards Denver-Albuquerque service, that would be different, but we don't.  Colorado can't even be convinced to run service from Denver to Fort Collins, and this is with a relatively pro-public-transport administration.  Out of state service is something they won't even look at.

There is currently a PTC waiver for routes with a "de minimis" number of passenger trains per day.  I don't know how long that's going to last, but it's not a good thing to rely on; that sort of waiver has a tendency to shrink over time.

To note, UP does give quarterly updates on their PTC status. You can find them on the UP website or Facebook page. They claim to be on pace for the end of 2018 deadline. This is from November. What we don't know is where Amtrak stands in getting their fleet equipped to work with these systems.Attached File  pdf_up_media_nov_2017_ptc.pdf   1.76MB   7 downloads

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#57 neroden

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Posted 10 February 2018 - 01:06 PM

Oh, cool.  Thanks for the link to the UP updates!  That makes them about as transparent as BNSF.

 

The eastern roads are still way behind.

 

So, interestingly, three major Amtrak segments appear to have exemptions from PTC: the middle of the Coast Starlight route between SF and LA,  the middle of the Denver to Salt Lake route across the mountains, and part of the Texas Eagle route through Missouri.

 

On BNSF, they've already installed PTC almost everywhere that Amtrak runs -- the exception is the Raton Pass route from somewhere west of Newton to Albuquerque.

 

These omissions are irritatingly penny-wise/pound-foolish, but they don't compare to the situation on CSX, NS, and CN, which appear to have no tracks where PTC is implemented.  CSX and CN don't even have status pages (at least NS is advertising how many radios they've installed and how many locomotives they have ready).


Edited by neroden, 10 February 2018 - 01:19 PM.

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#58 The 3 Ducks Quacking

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Posted 10 February 2018 - 10:45 PM

Regarding the Raton Pass segment ,BNSF ownership ends at Lamy  (does not extend to Albuquerque)  From Lamy into Albuquerque  is the ownership of the state of New Mexico.  The part from Lamy west 22 miles is an area they want to forget about  Only Amtrak uses it twice a day,



#59 The 3 Ducks Quacking

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 03:04 PM

I am almost certain that there will be no PTC required if the max speed is below some threshold.

 

Also note that just because a track is equipped for PTC does not mean every train running on that tracks is running under PTC. At present and even past 1/1/19 PTC will not become a universally mandatory item. There will be exceptions to deal with operations under failure conditions under some enforced restrictions, like max speed allowed etc. Considering how rickety most of the PTC implementations are, absent such the whole system would grind to a standstill. ;)

Now that Mr. Anderson has spoken to Congress. What do you think and why?



#60 jis

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 03:19 PM

There will be quite a bit of track that will continue to operate under waiver. Mr. Anderson has relatively little leverage over the owners of the tracks. Many of them are making good progress, but there will remain track segments that don’t quite make it that will be granted waivers by the FRA and Amtrak will continue to operate on them.

The exempt trackage that has been identified will remain exempt unless Mr. Anderson wants to spend his resources installing PTC on them to run a single train of his in each direction on them.


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