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Derailment of Cascades #501, DuPont WA, 2017-12-18


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#41 frequentflyer

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 12:46 PM

 

Oh crap...........79 mph at that curve?

You don't really believe every bit of hearsay you see here, do you?

 

No, of course not. But it would not be the first time we had an "oops" in the speed department on a sharp curve involve passenger trains.



#42 Ngotwalt

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 12:47 PM

They have been doing testing for close to a year. Still haven't heard if PTC was in place and in service. Train was a Talgo Serie 6 USA transit, which has short cars like those seen, the cars did not break in half (as far as the photos I have seen anyway).

Nick


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#43 Bierboy

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 12:55 PM

I have to quibble a bit with the news media calling this a "high speed Amtrak train"...technically I suppose that's correct. However, I've never heard LD routes called "high speed", and they routinely hit 79 mph. Japan would laugh at that terminology...


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#44 TylerP42

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 12:58 PM

Police officer (state patrol) being interviewed by media saying she is having a hard time contacting PIO's at Amtrak.

Media going back and forth saying fatalities and no fatalities.
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#45 cirdan

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 12:59 PM

They have been doing testing for close to a year. Still haven't heard if PTC was in place and in service. Train was a Talgo Serie 6 USA transit, which has short cars like those seen, the cars did not break in half (as far as the photos I have seen anyway).

Nick

 

It is notable how the cars did separate.

 

See here for the far higher-speed derailmant at Compostela in Spain.

 

Admittedly this is not the same type of equipment, but I guess the overall dynamics are comparable. 

 

Despite what happened, many of the cars did manage to stay attached.

 

Arguably, a train's ability to resist jackknifing in this type of situation can be life saving.

 


Edited by cirdan, 18 December 2017 - 01:02 PM.


#46 Manny T

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 01:04 PM

For what it's worth, I found this about the Talgo in India:

 

"Okay, how does this technology work?

"Wheels of conventional coaches are joined by an axle underneath. Talgo’s wheels are mounted in pairs but not joined by an axle — instead, they are fitted individually on the coach. As a result, on a curve, the outer wheel (which has to cover a longer distance than the inner wheel) and the inner wheel are free to rotate at speeds of their own, largely foreclosing the possibility of derailment even at higher speeds. Also, the design of the coach is such that it senses the curve and shifts its weight in a manner that manages the tilt." http://indianexpress...rmance-3029920/



#47 BmoreFlyer

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 01:07 PM

 

 

Oh crap...........79 mph at that curve?

You don't really believe every bit of hearsay you see here, do you?

 

No, of course not. But it would not be the first time we had an "oops" in the speed department on a sharp curve involve passenger trains.

 

The Amtrak train tracking site has it at 81 MPH just before the derailment.  I do not know how much it would have slowed down by the incident site.  There is no speed indicated at the brown dot (incident site?)

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#48 Ngotwalt

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 01:07 PM

 

They have been doing testing for close to a year. Still haven't heard if PTC was in place and in service. Train was a Talgo Serie 6 USA transit, which has short cars like those seen, the cars did not break in half (as far as the photos I have seen anyway).

Nick

 

It is notable how the cars did separate.

 

See here for the far higher-speed derailmant at Compostela in Spain.

 

Admittedly this is not the same type of equipment, but I guess the overall dynamics are comparable. 

 

Despite what happened, many of the cars did manage to stay attached.

 

Arguably, a train's ability to resist jackknifing in this type of situation can be life saving.

 

 

Overspeed in a corner with a Talgo train, my first though was of Compostela. There are definitely similarities between the derailments, and I think the probability of an overspeed derailment is absolutely growing. Was there PTC? If so why did it fail to prevent this derailment? Also the original poster who I didn't quote asked if the cars were short, or long and broken in half. That is a no, the train set itself obviously broke apart, the cars themselves seems to have remained largely intact.

Nick


Edited by Ngotwalt, 18 December 2017 - 01:09 PM.

Amtrak mileage, who knows? Approximately 250,000 miles. Keystones, Pennsylvanian, Three Rivers, Broadway Limited, Capitol Limited, Lake Shore Limited (NYC&BOS), Regionals, Acela Express, Silver Meteor, Silver Star, Palmetto, Auto Train, Crescent, City of New Orleans, Sunset Limited, Texas Eagle, California Zephyr, Desert Wind, Southwest Chief, Empire Builder (SEA&PDX), Coast Starlight, Cascades, Wolverines, the International, the Maple Leaf, Adirondack, Ethan Allen Express, Downeaster, and Surfliners.
Outside the US, VIA: The Canadian, The Ocean, The Corridor QC to Sarnia; Rocky Mountaineer; Western Europe: The Deerstalker (London-Inverness), IC125s, IC225s, Pendolinos, Eurostars, TGV, Thalys, CNL's Pollux (Amsterdam-Munich), Glacier Express, Ave (BCN-Madrid), RZD Moscow-Chita train, Astrakhan-Volgograd train.

#49 jis

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 01:10 PM

The set that derailed appears to be Mt. Adams. It is almost certain that it is a scratch.

 

Consist:

 

WDTX 1402
AMTK7903
7554
7804
7503
7504
7424
7423
7422
7421
7420
7120
AMTK 181


Edited by jis, 18 December 2017 - 01:17 PM.


#50 the_traveler

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 01:15 PM

Talgo cars are coupled together and share a single axle. They are not coupled as other Amtrak or freight cars are.

So it is very possible during a derailment that one car goes left while the next car goes right.
Take it easy .......

Take the train instead and enjoy the ride!

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#51 WoodyinNYC

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 01:18 PM

 

 

They have been doing testing for close to a year. Still haven't heard if PTC was in place and in service. Train was a Talgo Serie 6 USA transit, which has short cars like those seen, the cars did not break in half (as far as the photos I have seen anyway).

Nick

 

It is notable how the cars did separate.

 

See here for the far higher-speed derailmant at Compostela in Spain.

 

Admittedly this is not the same type of equipment, but I guess the overall dynamics are comparable. 

 

Despite what happened, many of the cars did manage to stay attached.

 

Arguably, a train's ability to resist jackknifing in this type of situation can be life saving.

 

 

Overspeed in a corner with a Talgo train, my first though was of Compostela. There are definitely similarities between the derailments, and I think the probability of an overspeed derailment is absolutely growing. Was there PTC? If so why did it fail to prevent this derailment? Also the original poster who I didn't quote asked if the cars were short, or long and broken in half. That is a no, the train set itself obviously broke apart, the cars themselves seems to have remained largely intact.

Nick

Based on no current information whatsoever, I am reminded that a train crash can be a terrorist-type event, as when the Sunset Ltd was derailed west of Phoenix some 20 years ago.

 

The fact that this was the inaugural run of the new service, with attendant press and VIPs, contributes to my concern about that possibility.

 

None of the possible explanations for this tragedy are good in any way.



#52 TrackWalker

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 01:20 PM

www.amtrak.com

Amtrak Cascades services impacted
9:30 a.m. PT

 

Individuals with questions about their friends and family on this train should call (800) 523-9101.



#53 jis

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 01:26 PM

I am wondering where is the rest of the train?

 

There appears to be a number of cars on the other side of the bridge. The entire consist is some 13 cars plus the cab and the engine at the south end. Is the whole rest of the train derailed on the other side of the track which is not visible in the views being shown on TV because of difficulty accessing the area?

 

Yep, the entire train derailed right there and piled up. The Charger at the head of the train is on the ground on the other side of the bridge across I-5S. Visible from the Chopper. The Charger looks pretty badly beaten up too.

 

While a full investigation will establish the real cause, this looks suspiciously like an overspeed derailment on a curve.

 

This incidentally is the second Cascades derailment within a very short period of time.


Edited by jis, 18 December 2017 - 01:38 PM.


#54 VentureForth

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 01:32 PM

I cannot imagine both the equipment and the crew not having been completely qualified and certified on the new route.  But going into an S-Curve at 81.1 mph is pretty high.  I guess no PTC in these guys, eh?


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#55 cirdan

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 01:32 PM

For what it's worth, I found this about the Talgo in India:

 

"Okay, how does this technology work?

"Wheels of conventional coaches are joined by an axle underneath. Talgo’s wheels are mounted in pairs but not joined by an axle — instead, they are fitted individually on the coach. As a result, on a curve, the outer wheel (which has to cover a longer distance than the inner wheel) and the inner wheel are free to rotate at speeds of their own, largely foreclosing the possibility of derailment even at higher speeds. Also, the design of the coach is such that it senses the curve and shifts its weight in a manner that manages the tilt." http://indianexpress...rmance-3029920/

 

Actually, a fixed axle is pretty good at preventing derailments. There is a famous video of Richard Feynmann explaining how it always seeks the center and is thus inherently stable.

 

The attraction of individual wheels is that you can provide low-level passageways between low-floor cars, leading to an overall low center of gravity which is an important component of the concept of passive tilting generally and Talgo trains in particular. Having separate wheels means there can be a minimal variation in the gauge which is an inherent disadvantage. This is to some extent compensated by some smart patented systems that Talgo invented applying pendular pressure to the wheels to force them to simulate the sinusoidal motion of fixed axles. But its a workaround. Further advantages are that the decoupling suppresses the propagation of vibrations caused by bad track geometry, and that the dynamics in which one coach guides the next smoothens the transition into and out of curves which reduces the tendency of wheels to climb the outer rail in tight curves and thus means the risk of derailamnt is reduced in those situations, which can be used to increase speeds.



#56 TrackWalker

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 01:33 PM

https://twitter.com/AlexRozierK5

 

I cannot state for certain but this may be a 30MPH curve.



#57 CraigDK

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 01:36 PM

I am wondering where is the rest of the train?

 

There appears to be a number of cars on the other side of the bridge. The entire consist is some 13 cars plus the cab and the engine at the south end. Is the whole rest of the train derailed on the other side of the track which is not visible in the views being shown on TV because of difficulty ac

 

They are now showing aerial pictures... Most of the consist is on the other side.



#58 PerRock

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 01:37 PM

Is the angled car a really short car? Or is it broken in two?


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Talgo cars are shorter than your "regular" Amtrak car. I'm not certain which "angled car" you are referring to, but none of them look broken in half. Talgos share a wheel-set between two cars, so the car-end you can see (on the up-side-down car) looks a lot different than a normal car end.

 

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#59 Cho Cho Charlie

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 01:37 PM

The Amtrak train tracking site has it at 81 MPH just before the derailment.  I do not know how much it would have slowed down by the incident site.  There is no speed indicated at the brown dot (incident site?)


Our local news is also reporting that the train was doing 81.1 mph and that the max speed allowed was 79.9 mph. Though, as a non-train-type engineer, I would have hoped that the 79.9 mph limit had a bit of tolerance, and 81.1 mph would be within it.
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#60 jis

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 01:41 PM

77 injured are being brought to hospitals.

 

Current reports are 6 fatalities.






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