Cars closed to passengers

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jackal

Conductor
Joined
Nov 15, 2007
Messages
1,381
Location
SGF
Hasn’t really been an issue before, but it’s annoyed me three separate times in the past week, where conductors are keeping cars closed despite the open cars running full.

I can understand it on an empty train, but when cars are full, why not allow people to spread out? Are they actually doing this based on official Amtrak policy/procedure, or are they just colluding with the car attendants who want to be lazy and not have to monitor/clean an extra car?

I have a hard time believing it’s official policy to keep cars closed; unless it’s a dedicated ferry move (rare), if management didn’t want a car to be used, they’d cut it off the train and save the fuel/wear and tear involved in pulling it...

Also, what is official Amtrak corporate policy on coach attendants assigning seats? I get the impression most things like that are made up by employees as they go along and not based on actual policy.

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Write or call Amtrak and request a written copy of the items you wish. Then you can cite them if it is different that the conductors and attendants do ?
 
Nothing to add except that Metra does this regularly. I don't mind sitting next to someone if I have to, which most days I do.
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And of course all the cars are open during rush-hour. But to have people jammed in next to each other and wandering the train for a seat while the train has an empty car or two, often with the lights on, is irritating.

The rumor I've heard regarding Metra is that a conductor or trainman may (by union rules?) collect & check fares in only so many cars, and if the number of cars exceeds that number (multiplied by the number of conductors & trainmen, as there's always more than one), the "excess" cars will not be opened.
 
I've experienced it too on Trak. I chalk it up to yet another manifestation of laziness and total disregard, if not out right hatred, of passengers.
 
On Amtrak, unless there is something defective about the car, this is against policy -- there are always enough assistant conductors.

On Metra the description of union rules is correct.

Which route have you been having the issue with? We've noticed that individual divisions seem to make up their own rules and some of them are much more badly-behaved than others.
 
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if management didn’t want a car to be used, they’d cut it off the train and save the fuel/wear and tear involved in pulling it...
At one time the Empire Builder and City of New Orleans utilized the same trainsets in a run-through arrangement in Chicago. The Builder obviously carried extra cars for the Portland section, which regularly ran empty the entire distance to and from New Orleans.
 
This is a fairly regular occurrence on #21/#22 ( non #421/#422 days) between STL and SAS during the slow Winter season.

I've even seen 2 empty Coaches on this route with all the Coach passengers forced into 1 Car. ( one this Route One Coach attendant works 2 Cars).
 
I've experienced it too on Trak. I chalk it up to yet another manifestation of laziness and total disregard, if not out right hatred, of passengers.
That's basically the conclusion I've come to.

On Amtrak, unless there is something defective about the car, this is against policy -- there are always enough assistant conductors.

On Metra the description of union rules is correct.

Which route have you been having the issue with? We've noticed that individual divisions seem to make up their own rules and some of them are much more badly-behaved than others.
I've seen it occasionally in the past on Keystones when loads are very light, but that's excusable because there's more than enough room in the open cars.

This past week, I experienced it on multiple sections of the Silver Star as well as today's Capitol Limited.

Today's issue was
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. The coach attendant assigned me a seat (upon boarding at WAS) next to someone who insisted on playing videos on his phone at full volume. The boarding door to the rearmost car (closest to the station) was closed when I walked by it, but it was open from inside, so I moved to a seat back there. Shortly thereafter, the assistant conductor came up from downstairs and saw me and asked me, "You an employee?" I replied I wasn't, to which he said, "You're in the wrong car." I said, "They reserve an entire car for employees?" He said the car was closed. I started to gather my stuff and mumbled under my breath that this was the most ridiculous thing I've heard, to which he replied with a snarky attitude, "Sure it is." I then turned to him and said, "And there's that positive customer-focused attitude Amtrak is so well-known for." His reply: "Yes it is." I asked him for his name and said I'd be writing in a letter to Amtrak, and he then demanded my ticket. (I quipped, "Are you going to throw me off the train? I've done nothing wrong or illegal.") He said no, took note of my name, and that was it.

Yes, I was a little pushy, but being on the Roanoke inaugural this morning, I was up at 5am on 4 hours of sleep, and I have had my fill this past week (between three rides on the Silver Star and then the--fortunately very pleasant--ride this morning) of lazy, mean, customer-unfriendly Amtrak employees and snapped a little, but only in response to his very poor and unprofessional attitude. Notwithstanding that he was acting against Amtrak policy, the manner in which he handled the incident was just not appropriate for someone in the service industry: if the car really is closed, then politely inform me, "I'm sorry, sir, but this car is closed right now, and I'll have to ask you to move back to your original car." Even if I had still challenged him on the reason for the car being closed, he could have responded, "Since the other cars still have open seats, we're keeping this one closed for staffing purposes." Just a tiny modicum of politeness would have gone a long way in keeping the interaction smooth and positive. The airlines (especially AA) aren't especially known for the happiest and most customer-focused employees, but my goodness, they are at least hired for and given some level of training in being polite and having a customer-focused attitude (and avoiding escalating situations--for the most part, Dr. Dao excluded). Some Amtrak employees are very good, but a lot of them just leave me ashamed for the company and sometimes questioning my support of it, and this guy just pushed me over the edge.
 
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Did you tell the conductor about your video-playing neighbor? They could have nipped that in the bud rather quickly.
 
I’m not saying this is the reason, but I could see if a LD train has 5 coaches and 1 of the 2 coach attendants called in sick at the last minute and they were unable to get a replacement employee before departure it departed NYP, I would not expect I attendant to cover 5 coaches. So they close 1 off so the attendant only has 4 to cover. Another employee was on vacation in Florida and will be returning to NY. He could work the train returning. If they removed that car in NY on the way south, you may have 50+ people who have reservations coming north but no car/seats for them!

On a Corridor train, maybe 1 AC did not show. So 1 conductor & 1 AC would have to cover the entire 10-12 cars. So they may close 1 or 2 cars. (On a Corridor train, there could be another train in 1-2 hours, not in 24 hours or more, so it’s less of a problem.
 
As far as seat assignments go, and someone else here may correct me on this, the conductors on LD trains try to group passengers by destination so that when the train is spotted at each station, it's easier to get those passengers off.

In my case, on my trip in July, I boarded the Silver Meteor in RVR headed to ORL. One of the conductors asked me what my destination was and then directed me to the correct car and gave me a seat number. It was the same when I rode the Silver Star from ORL back to RVR.

On the Regionals (don't know about Acela), seats aren't assigned, at least in my experience.
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Related to this discussion on assigning cars and seats is the practice of some Conductors "streetcaring" passengers through one vestibule and lifting tickets as the passengers board. While this practice assures that revenue is properly handled, it results in delayed trains as such is not factored into the schedule (nor are double stops which are unavoidable on Long Distance routes).

I have to wonder if the "streetcaring" is official policy (having passengers board and alight only at attended vestibules is); but the Conductor is God on board when the train moves over the road.
 
While some are quick to point out the obvious (crew indifference, laziness etc,) I'll point out the misconceptions since I can think of a number of reasons for closed cars, most of which has been addressed by the capable members of this board.

I have a hard time believing it’s official policy to keep cars closed; unless it’s a dedicated ferry move (rare), if management didn’t want a car to be used, they’d cut it off the train and save the fuel/wear and tear involved in pulling it...

On Amtrak, unless there is something defective about the car, this is against policy -- there are always enough assistant conductors.
As AVoice pointed out, these two statements are quite untrue.

if management didn’t want a car to be used, they’d cut it off the train and save the fuel/wear and tear involved in pulling it...
At one time the Empire Builder and City of New Orleans utilized the same trainsets in a run-through arrangement in Chicago. The Builder obviously carried extra cars for the Portland section, which regularly ran empty the entire distance to and from New Orleans.
There are trains all over the system that routinely run with deadhead cars over a portion of the trip. A lot of this has to do with the points John Bredin and The Traveler made:

The rumor I've heard regarding Metra is that a conductor or trainman may (by union rules?) collect & check fares in only so many cars, and if the number of cars exceeds that number (multiplied by the number of conductors & trainmen, as there's always more than one), the "excess" cars will not be opened.

I’m not saying this is the reason, but I could see if a LD train has 5 coaches and 1 of the 2 coach attendants called in sick at the last minute and they were unable to get a replacement employee before departure it departed NYP, I would not expect I attendant to cover 5 coaches. So they close 1 off so the attendant only has 4 to cover. Another employee was on vacation in Florida and will be returning to NY. He could work the train returning. If they removed that car in NY on the way south, you may have 50+ people who have reservations coming north but no car/seats for them!

On a Corridor train, maybe 1 AC did not show. So 1 conductor & 1 AC would have to cover the entire 10-12 cars. So they may close 1 or 2 cars. (On a Corridor train, there could be another train in 1-2 hours, not in 24 hours or more, so it’s less of a problem.
These are not rumors. Each railroad has their own crew consist agreement. Some are based on riders, some are based on the amount of cars, some are based on the time of day, some are based on the time of year. Some are based on all of the above while some are based upon state and/or local laws.

In terms of Amtrak, they often put cars in deadhead status for a portion or the entire of the trip to avoid staffing the car when ridership doesn't warrant it. As for cutting the car and leaving it, the car may be needed for a portion of the trip or possibly on the return trip. In the case of trains that cross into state supported service, the states may only reimburse for a set amount of cars. So, they may become deadhead at a certain point to comply with operating agreement. Heck, there are a few routes where they HAVE to run a minimum axle count to avoid delays. You will often see those cars listed as deadhead.

Then of course, there are the blatant ferrying moves. 29 DID have legitimate deadhead equipment that I previously mentioned.

So, to say there are always enough crew and that Amtrak ferrying cars is rare is not accurate.

Another reason that a car may be closed for a portion may be on the conductor's manifest. There is a group boarding down the line and they are preserving the space so the passengers can sit together. In some cases the group may have exclusive occupancy of an entire coach.

In the case of long distance trains, they typically having loading plans, indicating exactly what Steve4031 and LookingGlassTies mentioned. Certain passengers go in certain cars based upon their destination. It is manifested and published daily as operating conditions may change. In other words, a platform may be under construction so on this trip, passengers for such and such stop will be in coach 29XX to expedite the process. Some station have short platforms under normal circumstances and the loading plan would reflect that.

Another reason the Neroden mentioned might be a non-running gear defect that presents the car from being utilized by the passengers. However, that may impact other cars around it. There is was a train in recent memory that struck debris, which resulted in a non-running gear defect between the 7th and 8th car. As such, everyone in car 10, 9 and 8 had to move past the defect.

Such a move wouldn't be uncommon or something the average passenger would recognize. They would see three cars, not being utilized without understanding that they may not be used in service.

Amfleets used to be notorious for door defects. They would cause entire blocks of cars to close since once there isn't a means of egress on one end, the car (and anything caught on the other side of it) may not be used.
 
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You're lucky... a few years ago I once saw a man removed from the train for questioning the Conductor on a closed coach in Atlanta. I'm not sure why the coach was closed, but my guess is that it was to pick up passengers going north of atlanta in Charlotte in the middle of the night. Either way, the Conductor took a very "it's closed because I said so and if you don't sit down and be quiet you're getting off my train" approach to it and she followed through with it.

I will say... and please understand that I am NOT defending Amtrak, I've had my unpleasant encounters as well... but if you were assigned a coach seat and then moved on your own into a car that was totally empty on a LD train I can kinda see why the Conductor may have had a bit of an attitude with you. You're correct that it could have been handled better by the Conductor, but you've also ridden Amtrak enough to know that you should have asked someone if it was ok for you to move to another seat...
 
From reading your post Chris, it sounds like you were on 176 today out of RNK. I can almost guarantee that their were train masters on that train, if not higher. So my suggestion would be take it up with a Zone 5 Trainmaster in DC. Which is very hard to do.
 
You're lucky... a few years ago I once saw a man removed from the train for questioning the Conductor on a closed coach in Atlanta. I'm not sure why the coach was closed, but my guess is that it was to pick up passengers going north of atlanta in Charlotte in the middle of the night. Either way, the Conductor took a very "it's closed because I said so and if you don't sit down and be quiet you're getting off my train" approach to it and she followed through with it.

I will say... and please understand that I am NOT defending Amtrak, I've had my unpleasant encounters as well... but if you were assigned a coach seat and then moved on your own into a car that was totally empty on a LD train I can kinda see why the Conductor may have had a bit of an attitude with you. You're correct that it could have been handled better by the Conductor, but you've also ridden Amtrak enough to know that you should have asked someone if it was ok for you to move to another seat...
This.

That said, didn't you know that Amtrak trains are run for benefit of the employees's?

"The conductor sings his song again, the passenger's will please refrain....."
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Ive heard all of these reasons, but suspect the real reason is NJT employees talking to Amtrak employees about how much fun it is to cattle car passengers into as few cars as possible and then have 36.5 conductors chortle about how they jammed everyone into 3 cars on a 10 car train, and how spacious their staff car is. And how, despite the one open car, its still too much trouble to bother collecting tickets past the first three stops or so.

I swear I have ridden Princeton to NY an average of 3 times before having to surrender a ticket.

Because I would sure consider these observations as more valid if it wasnt for the way the T&E crews on NJT does things.
 
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A couple of years ago, I took my parents on a trip from Philadelphia to Boston. My sister was meeting us in New York, so I told her we'd be on the last coach so it would be easier to find us. When the train got to NYP, the coach emptied out and we were the only ones on it. The staff didn't let anyone else on but let us stay. It was great...we were joking that we had a private car up to Boston. We could still go up to the cafe car, noticing how crowded all the other coaches were.
 
Back in 1988 I rode the river cities from new Orleans to Kansas city. The only people riding in this car were those traveling to st Louis and beyond. For most of the night I had the car to myself except for the assistant conductor.

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There are many good and bad reasons why a car may be closed. There are almost no good reasons for an a snarky or impolite explanation by a crew member. On a lightly traveled stretch that has some short platforms, avoiding a double or triple stop might be helpful. On a crowded train it doesn't cut it from a customer service standpoint. There are some routes where a drop car or cars would be useful, but may not be feasible for lack of storage or switching capability (Atlanta comes to mind).
 
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