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Brightline Railcars Any Reason They Can't Be Used By Amtrak?


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#41 jis

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 02:38 PM

For loading gauge, the Viaggio Twin is 4600mm tall. https://www.mobility...gio-twin-en.pdf

 

peter

That would be right on the edge. It is taller than the Viewliners 14'6", but is under 14'8"



#42 west point

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 09:56 PM

And the clearance gauge ?

Edited by west point, 10 August 2017 - 09:59 PM.


#43 jis

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 07:07 AM

And the clearance gauge ?

When you get that close to the edge one has to take a closer look at the shape.

However, so far no one has proposed to purchase Viaggio Twins for anything in the US. If someone does then they will have to make sure that the US version fits the loading gauge of the proposed routes over which they will be used.


Edited by jis, 11 August 2017 - 08:42 AM.


#44 cirdan

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 07:14 AM

 

 

If that mattered they should have stuck with the classic Budd shape (no not Amfleet. The original Budd shape like the Heritage Sleepers). They didn't. So it is safe to assume that it really does not matter.


Come on, JIS. Asthetics always matter to the extent people choose to let them matter. Obviously, operationally it is almost irrelevant, and practicality and getting trains running trump it thoroughly, but to say they don't matter is a rather sweeping statement.

 

Once upon a time it mattered a lot, when railroads could easily order matched sets of equipment from a choice of builder's, to equip their new streamliner's.

Now, we have trains like VIA Rail's Ocean, where they match up Renaissance cars with classic Budd Park series cars... Practical? Certainly.     Aesthetic? Hardly......

 

 

This

 

If aesthetics realyl mattered, locomotives would also be designed to match cars more closely, as they did back in the streamliner era.

 

SilverPilot.jpg



#45 A Voice

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 08:42 AM

If aesthetics realyl mattered, locomotives would also be designed to match cars more closely, as they did back in the streamliner era.

 

SilverPilot.jpg

 

 

When you operate six different models of single-level passenger cars - each with distinctive shapes and profiles - and multiple types of bi-level equipment, to what exactly do you match the locomotives?  

 

Remember that aesthetics were a primary reason the railroads got the FP-45/SDP-40F designs; It would have been easier and cheaper to have just bought more SDP-45's (or even P32's instead of the Genesis).  Indeed, the issue of cost is paramount.  It was far less expensive and more practical to do a cowled GP-40 than a modern E-unit.

 

None of which proves aesthetics unimportant.  There are very good reasons - and more important considerations than style - why much modern equipment doesn't match very well.  To the extent possible and practical, attention should be paid to style and a more uniform appearance.   



#46 jis

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 09:25 AM

The modern trend elsewhere in the world is to use semi-permanently coupled matched consists for passenger service.

 

However, in countries that have extensive long distance service, at for the long distance trains the trend still is to have trains consists built of individual cars coupled together using standard couplers. Even there though because of other reasons e.g. braking system, HEP system etc. compatibility, more often than not similar cars from the same generation tend to be kept together. Attempts to keep cars with similar livery start with much fanfare at the introduction of a new service, but in five years it descends into a mess.

 

Matching the livery of train consists with engines is more often than not, mostly ignored.

 

As has been mentioned, operational convenience and cost considerations tend to derail the best laid out aesthetics plans. But it is still good to start at a good point.

 

The problem that Amtrak has is that, as Thirdrail and I have discussed elsewhere, it is a grossly under-capitalized operation, both on the capital purchases front and on the maintenance front. Under those circumstances, you basically acquire what you can at the lowest possible price, You maintain things closer to the point of failure than a fully capitalized operation would. The reason that the very effective maintenance paradigm used for the Acelas is not used elsewhere can be traced to this basic under-capitalization. Even when you plan to rebrand it takes so long to re-livery the relevant fleet that the whole plan falls apart and aesthetics suffers even more.



#47 railiner

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 02:39 PM

 

 

 

If that mattered they should have stuck with the classic Budd shape (no not Amfleet. The original Budd shape like the Heritage Sleepers). They didn't. So it is safe to assume that it really does not matter.


Come on, JIS. Asthetics always matter to the extent people choose to let them matter. Obviously, operationally it is almost irrelevant, and practicality and getting trains running trump it thoroughly, but to say they don't matter is a rather sweeping statement.

 

Once upon a time it mattered a lot, when railroads could easily order matched sets of equipment from a choice of builder's, to equip their new streamliner's.

Now, we have trains like VIA Rail's Ocean, where they match up Renaissance cars with classic Budd Park series cars... Practical? Certainly.     Aesthetic? Hardly......

 

 

This

 

If aesthetics realyl mattered, locomotives would also be designed to match cars more closely, as they did back in the streamliner era.

 

SilverPilot.jpg

 

Gorgeous!  Thanks for posting!

Love those E-5's...only the 'Q' had them...they sure looked great with a matching set of stainless Budd Zephyr's..... :)  :cool:


metroblue?

okay on the blue!

#48 west point

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 03:09 PM

match for awhile then mix becomes the normal. Since the Bright line coaches are different colors for each semi permanent train set want to bet when the sets get mixed up ? Bright line may have certain trips that sell out with a current train set and they will add cars from other set(s) ?

#49 jis

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 09:04 PM

match for awhile then mix becomes the normal. Since the Bright line coaches are different colors for each semi permanent train set want to bet when the sets get mixed up ? Bright line may have certain trips that sell out with a current train set and they will add cars from other set(s) ?

They are unlikely to do that since their plan is to maintain and run each set as a single unit. The sets are not easy to take apart to replace a single car.

#50 brianpmcdonnell17

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 01:12 AM

match for awhile then mix becomes the normal. Since the Bright line coaches are different colors for each semi permanent train set want to bet when the sets get mixed up ? Bright line may have certain trips that sell out with a current train set and they will add cars from other set(s) ?

They are unlikely to do that since their plan is to maintain and run each set as a single unit. The sets are not easy to take apart to replace a single car.
Yeah, they will be run similar to how the Acela is run now. The only time the consists may be adjusted is if a specific car needs repairs, which is unusual as a whole set is usually worked on at the same time. There was a time a few years ago when one of the Acela sets was missing a car due to major repairs. If I remember correctly, it was a first class car.
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#51 chrsjrcj

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 08:18 AM

Theoretically Brightline could remove the two middle cars (the end cars have no passageways) and add a car to two trainsets or two cars to one trainset. This would leave them with three trainsets and a spare (which is enough with an hour end to end run time and a 30 min turnaround at each end point). Of course, they would have to change the exterior decal and interior markings from Bright Blue to Bright Pink (or whatever). I doubt they would want to do this unless there is considerably more demand at rush hour.


Edited by chrsjrcj, 12 August 2017 - 08:20 AM.


#52 jis

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 10:00 AM

They have additional cars (including food service car) on order for each set and additional sets for extension of service to Orlando and expansion on capacity and enhancement of service in Phase II.

Phase III, though not called that yet, appears to be adding one or more station in the big gap between West Palm Beach and Orlando.

#53 cirdan

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 09:08 AM

The train form with two locomotives sandwiching a fixe set is based on British Rail's HST. Okay, there are or were earlier examples than that, including Britain-s Blue Pullman, Germany's TEE and others. But I think there is no denying that the British HST went a long way to making this type of train popular and succesful.

 

As ordered, the BR versions came with both 7 and 8 passenger cars, depending on the route. Furthermore, initially there was both a buffet car and a full restaurant, at least on the versions earmarked for longer trips. Full restaurants were phased out a few years later, replaced by meals served at your seat in the first class on longer trips. Over the years cars have been rebuilt and repurposed and indeed cars have been rebuilt from the general fleet to strengthen the HSTs. with many sets being one or even two cars longer than initially delivered. On the other hand parcels are no longer carried, so the sets today are quite different in many respects to the configuration as first designed. Not to mention they have also been re-engined.

 

BR and its privatized succesors were fortunate in that there were plenty of Mk3s available on other services that could be rebuilt for HST use (basically buffers removed and rewired for diferent voltage). I hope Brightline has some sort of arrangement with Siemens to be able to add further cars in the longer term future without being charged some extortionate price,as happened to Amtrak when they tried to strengthen the Acela sets.



#54 jis

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 11:37 AM

Yes. Brightline has a deal with Siemens to both add cars to the current consists and add new consists to their fleet.

Since these are not one of a kind special order but are off the shelf products with minor customization for a customer there would be no justification for the scenario that unfolded with Acelas, even if it was just an additional order within the next several years. Of course if it is an order for something 20 years hence, it would probably be crazy not to go for a more current generation of technology by then.

Edited by jis, 13 August 2017 - 04:18 PM.


#55 seat38a

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 12:34 AM

Yes. Brightline has a deal with Siemens to both add cars to the current consists and add new consists to their fleet.

Since these are not one of a kind special order but are off the shelf products with minor customization for a customer there would be no justification for the scenario that unfolded with Acelas, even if it was just an additional order within the next several years. Of course if it is an order for something 20 years hence, it would probably be crazy not to go for a more current generation of technology by then.

They are running the trains currently with two engines. Does Siemens not have a control car for the Brightline railcars?



#56 cirdan

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 06:13 AM

 

Yes. Brightline has a deal with Siemens to both add cars to the current consists and add new consists to their fleet.

Since these are not one of a kind special order but are off the shelf products with minor customization for a customer there would be no justification for the scenario that unfolded with Acelas, even if it was just an additional order within the next several years. Of course if it is an order for something 20 years hence, it would probably be crazy not to go for a more current generation of technology by then.

They are running the trains currently with two engines. Does Siemens not have a control car for the Brightline railcars?

 

 

The Railjet has a control car. But it appears that Brightline did not pursue that option. Maybe the design wasn't FRA compiiant?

 

piko-h0-57670-h0-steuerwagen-railjet-der



#57 jis

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 06:28 AM

Brightline wanted 8000HP. Logical way to get that is from two 4000hp diesels. So no need for cab cars.

#58 seat38a

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 03:38 PM

Brightline wanted 8000HP. Logical way to get that is from two 4000hp diesels. So no need for cab cars.

Wow such simple cost effective solutions to the problem.  :D  :D



#59 jis

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 03:46 PM

And also a more reliable solution since there is now no single point of failure for the prime movers powering the train. ;)



#60 seat38a

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 04:23 PM

And also a more reliable solution since there is now no single point of failure for the prime movers powering the train. ;)

That is what I was thinking as well but hit submit before writing it on the above post. The biggest sched failure for Metrolink and Amtrak in California has been the engines breaking down. I just love getting a tweet or a text message. Train so and so has been cancelled due to mechanical issue with the engine. In Amtrak's case they have spare engines located in SD and LA but my train has always broken down somewhere between the location of the spares. 






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