3rd Piedmont daily R/T likely effective May 2018 in the works RGH-CLT

Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

gercohen

Train Attendant
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Messages
36
The North Carolina General Assembly in its 2017-2019 budget provided state funding for a 3rd RGH-CLT Piedmont train roundtrip probably effective May 2018. Timetable might be available late Fall 2017.

This would mean 3 daily RT on Piedmont RGH-CLT, plus Carolinian serves RGH-CLT (as part of NYP-CLT), Silver Star covers RGH-CYN (part of NYP-CLT) and Crescent CLT-GRO (part of NYP-NOL)
 
Sounds good to me!

The current two Piedmonts a day require two sets with one set for 73-74 and one for 75-76. If you wanted to schedule, let's say 77 and 78 without requiring a third set you can have 77 leave RGH around 7-7:30pm and arrive in CLT around 10:30-11pm. But then 78 would have to get back to RGH at least 1-2 hours before the 75 (11:45am) and the 80 is right around that time. Ideally you'd have a nighttime northbound 78 in the 7-11pm range but you'd need a new set or more creative set switching.

If you don't mind needing a 3rd set but would rather schedule for transfer opportunities,

You want 78 to arrive in RGH in enough time to catch the SS southbound (9:01pm). 8:36pm (76) seems tight for me. How about 3:30pm out of CLT arriving in RGH around 7pm? So 78 would be between 74 and 76 (or they renumber them). You want 77 to leave RGH after 8:45am but late enough so they guarantee the connection from the northbound SS. 11:45am (75) seems a bit late a wait if the 98 is on time. I don't know if scheduling a 10:45am or 11am departure right before the 11:45am is worth it (but should get back to CLT to allow to return at 3:30pm from there).

Ideally you could schedule a trip to connect RGH to either Greensboro/CLT to the Crescent but their times are in the graveyard shift.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Besides the intricate train set scheduling/juggling, don't forget the train crews. In the beginning, when there was just one morning Piedmont from Raleigh to Charlotte with an evening return, there were two crews per day. The morning crew would go off duty to a hotel and stay over night. Another crew was called for the evening train.

When the midday trains came along, both crews started out of Raleigh and turned right around at Charlotte - no more hotels. It's much better for the crews since everyone makes it home everyday.

One other problem that needs to be dealt with is they need more coaches. At Thanksgiving they already run just about everything they've got. With more frequencies comes the need for more equipment.

jb
 
This is great news, North Carolina and Virginia are such good supporters of passenger rail. Wish Georgia and South Carolina were, too.
 
One other problem that needs to be dealt with is they need more coaches. At Thanksgiving they already run just about everything they've got. With more frequencies comes the need for more equipment.

jb
Does NC have additional equipment that has not yet been refurbished?
 
One other problem that needs to be dealt with is they need more coaches. At Thanksgiving they already run just about everything they've got. With more frequencies comes the need for more equipment.

jb
Does NC have additional equipment that has not yet been refurbished?
They didn't, but I don't know if they picked up some of the Ringling Bros. equipment.

jb
 
Sounds good to me!

The current two Piedmonts a day require two sets with one set for 73-74 and one for 75-76. If you wanted to schedule, let's say 77 and 78 without requiring a third set you can have 77 leave RGH around 7-7:30pm and arrive in CLT around 10:30-11pm. But then 78 would have to get back to RGH at least 1-2 hours before the 75 (11:45am) and the 80 is right around that time. Ideally you'd have a nighttime northbound 78 in the 7-11pm range but you'd need a new set or more creative set switching.

If you don't mind needing a 3rd set but would rather schedule for transfer opportunities,

You want 78 to arrive in RGH in enough time to catch the SS southbound (9:01pm). 8:36pm (76) seems tight for me. How about 3:30pm out of CLT arriving in RGH around 7pm? So 78 would be between 74 and 76 (or they renumber them). You want 77 to leave RGH after 8:45am but late enough so they guarantee the connection from the northbound SS. 11:45am (75) seems a bit late a wait if the 98 is on time. I don't know if scheduling a 10:45am or 11am departure right before the 11:45am is worth it (but should get back to CLT to allow to return at 3:30pm from there).

Ideally you could schedule a trip to connect RGH to either Greensboro/CLT to the Crescent but their times are in the graveyard shift.
The OTP is good enough on the Piedmont that 76 is a guaranteed connection to 91. I have boarded 91 at Raleigh many times, most of which 91 ended up waiting outside the station for 76 to depart to the yard. Another thing to consider is that the connection can be made at Cary, making it 65 minutes which is more than enough for a corridor train.
Ideally, I would like to see the next southbound Piedmont leave Raleigh around 8/8:30, arriving Charlotte between 11 and midnight. This would allow people to work to 5 or 6 in Raleigh and still make a same-day train, in addition to providing a shorter connection time to the Crescent. The connection at Greensboro would be from around 10 PM to 12:22 AM, which is really not much worse than the Pennsylvanian/CL. In fact, the connecting time itself is shorter. Few people want to board a train at 2:45 AM (Charlotte's southbound Crescent departure time) however, so it would be important that the official connecting station is changed from Charlotte to Greensboro. I have connected at both in the past, and Greensboro is also a much nicer station.

In the future, this corridor could probably support three additional trains than the present (six total), with one between 73 and 75 and one between 75 and 79 in addition to the later night depature. The same changes could be made to northbound service, with one train between 80 and 74, one between 74 and 76, and one after 76. I also believe the late train should be the first one to be implemented northbound. Unfortunately, these new trains would do nothing to improve connections from the northbound Crescent, but even with connecting passengers I doubt there is enough demand for a train departing Charlotte before 6 AM.

Another possibility I would look into if I was North Carolina is another train or two to the NEC. Although both Raleigh and Charlotte currently have two, they are scheduled very close together in Raleigh and one of Charlotte's trains is in the middle of the night. A late northbound and early southbound train could be popular. The train would likely arrive/depart New York in the middle of the night, but the sheer size of the city and the slightly better calling times at Philadelphia lead me to believe the train should still be run up the NEC. This could be 74 northbound but the southbound would likely require a currently unscheduled train between 75 and 79. This train could also potentially be combined with 65/66/67, providing direct servicd to Boston. Another idea could be an overnight train between Raleigh and Washington. It could be a continuation of 73 southbound and a potential new circa 8-9 PM departure from Charlotte.

Either train could also be extended to Atlanta if South Carolina and Georgia change politically, with one train providing same-day service as far as Philadelphia from Atlanta and the other providing direct service from Atlanta to Raleigh and Richmond.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Charlotte to Greenville SC to Atlanta GA is an amazing opportunity for a corridor. But without a new station in Atlanta and political support in SC and GA it won't happen anytime soon I am afraid. :(
 
A couple considerations on schedules. The track CLT - Greensboro will be all 2MT track. However the track GRO - Raleigh - Selma will be single track CTC with some 2 MT and long sidings. Schedules will need tweaking so NS freights do not interfere with the Amtrak schedules and timing.

Timing of the various trains' schedules should be significantly reduced. The Crescent can make up 30 minutes CLT - GRO so tightening schedule with all 2MT should be 20 minutes for Piedmont's. How much tightening GRO <> RGH can be done is unknown. This poster would expect maybe 10 minutes ? That would make RGH <> CLT just at 3:00 which includes additional :02 to new CLT station ?

One possible schedule restriction might be if NC DOT pays to have more GRO - RGH made 2 MT. That might call for schedules to not be reduced while work is in progress ?

The RGH - GRO connection to southbound Crescent may have merit. As well more passengers north of GRO would allow filling out Crescent south of GRO. Connection to northbound Crescent at GRO not good
.

How correct about the Atlanta station situation, Ideally a station NE of present Amtrak station would be best but location is outside Atlanta city limits so no POL support ? That location really precludes other service thru Atlanta.

Right now May 2017 OTP of Piedmonts are not good station to station is 79 % but end point OTP is 53% Hopefully that will improve with the construction going on right now.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
2 MT means two tracks both signaled for bi directional operation. Almost always is CTC. The only problem with 2 MT operation is stations may only have a platform on one side of the two tracks. That does restrict trains to just using platform access track.

FYI - The Amtrak NEC has a mix of 4 MT, 2 MT & directional signaling on either a 3rd adjacent track directional signaled and if preset 4th track signaled in opposite direction; or 3 tracks with center MT bidirectional signaled and outside tracks each signaled in opposite directions; or just 2 MT in Maryland especially over the draw bridges. Confusing ? ? you bet and it is always changes and you can think of other combinations.

To further muddy the waters not all tracks have cab signals in one direction and / or ACSES yet ? No cab signals speed limited to 79 MPH.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Greensboro-Raleigh also has less freight traffic than Greensboro-Charlotte as the traffic to the North generally follows the Crescent route at Greensboro, so while it would be ideal to have double track the whole way the schedules could probably be worked out without it from Greensboro to Raleigh.
 
2 MT means two tracks both signaled for bi directional operation. Almost always is CTC. The only problem with 2 MT operation is stations may only have a platform on one side of the two tracks. That does restrict trains to just using platform access track.

FYI - The Amtrak NEC has a mix of 4 MT, 2 MT & directional signaling on either a 3rd adjacent track directional signaled and if preset 4th track signaled in opposite direction; or 3 tracks with center MT bidirectional signaled and outside tracks each signaled in opposite directions; or just 2 MT in Maryland especially over the draw bridges. Confusing ? ? you bet and it is always changes and you can think of other combinations.

To further muddy the waters not all tracks have cab signals in one direction and / or ACSES yet ? No cab signals speed limited to 79 MPH.
You cannot really have ACSES without Cab Signals, since ACSES is an overlay on the existing Cab Signaling system. AFAIK all main line tracks on NEC are Cab Signal and ACSES equipped, at least on the Amtrak managed part of the NEC, except in areas inside terminal zones possibly.

Where does the "MT" terminology come from? haven't seen it before, so am curious.I am more familiar with which NORAC rule applies to each track mentioned.

BTW, in three track territory having only the center track signaled bidirectionally is not that uncommon. A lot of the 4 track territory on the NEC also has only the two middle tracks bidirectionally signaled, and the two outer tracks signaled in a single direction.
 
2MT means both tracks are bi directionally signaled. DT ( double track ) is current of traffic with each track signaled only in one direction, However it may have islands where opposite direction track is signaled for a short interval for passing requirements. Well all tracks are not yet cab signaled especially far tracks in opposite direction. Remember Frankford junction was not ACSES signaled going north bound and signal approaching was a clear instead of a approach 60. The work is on going if you look at the MPR of ACSES work.
 
Back to the Piedmont. My understanding is that NC has said it is planning for a very early morning departure from Charlotte with a corresponding evening train from Raleigh. Probably likewise Raleigh-Charlotte but I'm old n forgetful. The intention is for same day business trips.

Anyway, I'd expect that NC's priority will be good calling times serving the cities on the route.

Much lower priority: Connections to the Amtrak LD lines. If they happen at all beyond coincidence, they will probably happen without any big public announcement, to avoid inciting the Crazies who infest the state legislature.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Back to the Piedmont. My understanding is that NC has said it is planning for a very early morning departure from Charlotte with a corresponding evening train from Raleigh. Probably likewise Raleigh-Charlotte but I'm old n forgetful. The intention is for same day business trips.

Anyway, I'd expect that NC's priority will be good calling times serving the cities on the route.

Much lower priority: Connections to the Amtrak LD lines. If they happen at all beyond coincidence, they will probably happen without any big public announcement, to avoid inciting the Crazies who infest the state legislature.
Even if it is by coincidence, the schedule appears to benefit connections between Raleigh and points south/west on the Crescent
 
2 MT means two tracks both signaled for bi directional operation. Almost always is CTC. The only problem with 2 MT operation is stations may only have a platform on one side of the two tracks. That does restrict trains to just using platform access track.

FYI - The Amtrak NEC has a mix of 4 MT, 2 MT & directional signaling on either a 3rd adjacent track directional signaled and if preset 4th track signaled in opposite direction; or 3 tracks with center MT bidirectional signaled and outside tracks each signaled in opposite directions; or just 2 MT in Maryland especially over the draw bridges. Confusing ? ? you bet and it is always changes and you can think of other combinations.

To further muddy the waters not all tracks have cab signals in one direction and / or ACSES yet ? No cab signals speed limited to 79 MPH.

2MT means both tracks are bi directionally signaled. DT ( double track ) is current of traffic with each track signaled only in one direction, However it may have islands where opposite direction track is signaled for a short interval for passing requirements. Well all tracks are not yet cab signaled especially far tracks in opposite direction. Remember Frankford junction was not ACSES signaled going north bound and signal approaching was a clear instead of a approach 60. The work is on going if you look at the MPR of ACSES work.

These posts are not only off topic, they are so incorrect, it would take an entire thread to correct. The terms are off for the territory, your current of traffic is wrong and your understanding(?) compromises your posts.

Thanks for trying...but...please....no.
 
Beginning of the new Piedmont service should be shortly after the new Raleigh Union Station opens. The new station will have two station tracks off the main line with a center platform
 
Back
Top