Does current California Zephyr have any similarities to the orginal?

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Hello all,

Does anybody know of any similarities between the Original California Zephyr and the current Amtrak one? or have a direction I can go in to find out.

Specifically if the the train uses stainless steel around the body?

I know they take a similar route, but struggling to find similarities in the train itself.

Currently researching for a TV show on railways, so any help will be greatly appreciated!
 
I was fortunate enough to ride the original Zephyr as a child and the experience is with me to this day. Very few similarities outside of the name. Stainless steel may be about it. If you Google it you will find a wealth of information on the original Zephyr including where many of the cars reside now. Even the route west of Utah is different now than the original, though the schedule through the Rockies is similar. The domes and the observation car, not to mention superior service, are what made the original Zephyr a class unto itself. The dining experience of today cannot be compared with the original. The current Zephyr has its own charm with bi level cars and a very nice lounge, but it just isn't the same.
 
There is a good website that hasn't been updated in forever and that's the California Zephyr Virtual Museum. And I will go out there and say the stainless is not the same Budd Pattern that was originally used. A lot of former CZ cars are in charter service or preserved.
 
The CZ of today is quite a bit different from the 1949-1972 version. I was reminiscing with my granddaughter this week as we rode the CZ about the differences. The difference in service, accomadations, dome cars, and the food. But the scenery outside is just as beautiful and breathtaking. I told her that a close comparison of then to now would be taking the VIA Canadian.
 
Well... It's still a long distance passenger train that features coach and sleeping car accomodations. The train still has a full service (kinda?) dining car and an observation car with large wrap around windows. I would say there are more similarities than differences and most of the differences are only going to be noticed in the details.
 
One big difference is that the original CZ used the Western Pacific route in the Feather River Canyon between Winnemucca, Nevada and the Bay Area. Today's CZ uses the historic Southern Pacific route over the Sierras.
 
Hello all,

Does anybody know of any similarities between the Original California Zephyr and the current Amtrak one? or have a direction I can go in to find out.

Specifically if the the train uses stainless steel around the body?

I know they take a similar route, but struggling to find similarities in the train itself.

Currently researching for a TV show on railways, so any help will be greatly appreciated!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Zephyr

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Zephyr#Equipment

http://californiazephyr.org/resource.phtml

https://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=AwrBT9SVWV5Z8IMAHa1XNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE0OWExcWdjBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDQjQwNzlfMQRzZWMDcGl2cw--?p=California+Zephyr&fr2=piv-web&fr=mcafee
 
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The closest thing to the original Zephyr experience is the VIA Canadian trains #1 and #2. They are a delight.
 
There is virtually NO similarity between the equipment used now and that of the original California Zephyr, other than they both use stainless steel. The original equipment was single level with dome cars and a round end observation. It was built by the Budd Company. The current equipment is double decked Superliner, made by Pullman-Standard (Superliner I - 1979-80) and Bombardier (Superliner II 1992). Even the fluting pattern is very different.

There is really no continuity of history in the equipment. The original California Zephyr was discontinued by the WP in March 1970, over a year before Amtrak. BN and D&RGW continued "California Service" on a different schedule,using the original equipment, continuing on to Ogden where there was cross-platform transfer to SP's City of San Francisco. After Amtrak, D&RGW elected not to join Amtrak and ran their own Denver-Salt Lake City train, the Rio Grande Zephyr, using their CZ cars. Amtrak ran the "San Francisco Zephyr" at first basically with the SP/UP City of San Francisco equipment Day 1, and shortly transitioning to the "rainbow" period of cars from a variety of railroads, which were ultimately standardized into Amtrak livery. This continued until roughly 1980 when the San Francisco Zephyr was re-equipped with the then new Superliners. In April 1983, D&RGW finally joined Amtrak and discontinued the Rio Grande Zephyr. Amtrak renamed the San Francisco Zephyr to California Zephyr, a name which had been out of use at that point for 13 years when they re-routed over the old CZ D&RGW routing (the name change happened immediately, notwithstanding that they didn't physically re-route immediately due to the huge Thistle landslide, which had cut the D&RGW). The last remnant of the original CZ was the Rio Grande Zephyr.

In terms of equipment, the lineage is really SP City of San Francisco - Amtrak San Francisco Zephyr - Amtrak California Zephyr. That was the continuously operating service.

The current routing is the same as the original CZ from Chicago to Weso, NV just east of Winnemucca, NV. At that point, the Amtrak CZ follow the SP line over Donner Pass instead of the old WP through Feather River Canyon.

As pointed out, the closest thing to the original CZ is Via's Canadian. The "feature cars" the dome obs, diner, and mid-train dome lounges were built by Budd to the exact same plans as the CZ's, except that CP did not want the skirting that the CZ cars had. The sleeping cars were (and are) in VERY different configurations from the CZ's.
 
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Never rode the California Zephyr of old but it was a greatly different market back then where many railroads were competing for your business. From what I read in the history books it looks like today's CZ is not as upscale or as fast as the original. The old Vistaview observation cars provided a 360* view of the countryside and in addition to the dining cars, there was light food service available, and a few rooms on the lower level. The rear observation car was like a living room and smoking (ughhh) was permitted. In the evening passengers played cards, read magazines/books and socialized there. The old Zephyr may have also had a barbershop on board. The only improvement that I can see is the addition of showers in the sleepers. In the past the passengers must have stunk on those long trips.
 
On occasion the train (as well as other Amtrak trains) will have a set of two or three former California Zephyr which are now privately owned. Might be a possible route to go for additional content.
 
I have seen a documentary on YouTube that was about an hour and was pretty good. I'll try and find a link, but I'm sure you can search and find it easily.
 
Never rode the California Zephyr of old but it was a greatly different market back then where many railroads were competing for your business. From what I read in the history books it looks like today's CZ is not as upscale or as fast as the original. The old Vistaview observation cars provided a 360* view of the countryside and in addition to the dining cars, there was light food service available, and a few rooms on the lower level. The rear observation car was like a living room and smoking (ughhh) was permitted. In the evening passengers played cards, read magazines/books and socialized there. The old Zephyr may have also had a barbershop on board. The only improvement that I can see is the addition of showers in the sleepers. In the past the passengers must have stunk on those long trips.
I can't imagine I would have been willing to get a haircut or a shave on a moving train. :p
 
To the general public, I doubt anyone would notice any major differences. It's still a silver train, traveling the same basic (and breathtaking scenic) route, with the same basic services.

Here is a photo I took this year on a 611 excursion of a restored former Zephyr vista dome.

image.jpg
 
I didn't ride the original Zephyr but I did ride the last month of operation of the Empire Builder which is a similar comparison. Todays Amtrak is nothing like the experience when rail service had individual decor which represented the route, first class dining with real china and silverware, table cloths, four or five expert waiters and food they often could be proud to offer. (toward the very end some of that was harder to find). The sleepers in the old days of Pullman which I rode often including the City of St. Louis to San Francisco were wonders of function without the rattling and banging ill fitting doors and cabinets of today. The lounges as someone mentioned often had book cases and writing desk with free post cars and paper with the engraved name of the train an photos. Comfortable overstuffed sofas and chairs, not plastic like today. Today you can't tell what route your on in most cases due to the use of the same equipment all over the nation. Half the fun used to be looking forward to a wonderful golden tone line of passenger cars of the UP or the dark green of the Great Northern. The windows usually were clean as was the train and mens lounges were just that, large expanses of restrooms and sinks not just a tiny multi sex bath room. The better trains usually had two diners, one for first class and one with lighter less expensive fare for coach passengers. Another thing which I still miss is that normally the Pullman section ran on the back of the train where somehow it seemed more protected to me than up behind the engine.

All that said, if you get the chance to ride the Zephyr route as it is today do so, the scenery is interesting and the passengers are always fun to meet. One has to overlook a lot of flaws in todays Amtrak, but at least its still a passenger train going somewhere!
 
There is a really good documentary of the original California Zephyr, called Silver Thread Through the West, which presents the history of the train and features commentary from a few people who worked on the original CZ, including a Zephyrette or two.

Here is a link to the DVD version on Amazon: https://smile.amazon.com/Silver-Thread-Through-West-California/dp/B001PF5D1U/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1499488009&sr=8-3&keywords=silver+thread+through+the+west

Here is a preview of the film on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PRVcDXLpdk
 
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There is virtually NO similarity between the equipment used now and that of the original California Zephyr, other than they both use stainless steel. The original equipment was single level with dome cars and a round end observation. It was built by the Budd Company. The current equipment is double decked Superliner, made by Pullman-Standard (Superliner I - 1979-80) and Bombardier (Superliner II 1992). Even the fluting pattern is very different.

There is really no continuity of history in the equipment. The original California Zephyr was discontinued by the WP in March 1970, over a year before Amtrak. BN and D&RGW continued "California Service" on a different schedule,using the original equipment, continuing on to Ogden where there was cross-platform transfer to SP's City of San Francisco. After Amtrak, D&RGW elected not to join Amtrak and ran their own Denver-Salt Lake City train, the Rio Grande Zephyr, using their CZ cars. Amtrak ran the "San Francisco Zephyr" at first basically with the SP/UP City of San Francisco equipment Day 1, and shortly transitioning to the "rainbow" period of cars from a variety of railroads, which were ultimately standardized into Amtrak livery. This continued until roughly 1980 when the San Francisco Zephyr was re-equipped with the then new Superliners. In April 1983, D&RGW finally joined Amtrak and discontinued the Rio Grande Zephyr. Amtrak renamed the San Francisco Zephyr to California Zephyr, a name which had been out of use at that point for 13 years when they re-routed over the old CZ D&RGW routing (the name change happened immediately, notwithstanding that they didn't physically re-route immediately due to the huge Thistle landslide, which had cut the D&RGW). The last remnant of the original CZ was the Rio Grande Zephyr.

In terms of equipment, the lineage is really SP City of San Francisco - Amtrak San Francisco Zephyr - Amtrak California Zephyr. That was the continuously operating service.

The current routing is the same as the original CZ from Chicago to Weso, NV just east of Winnemucca, NV. At that point, the Amtrak CZ follow the SP line over Donner Pass instead of the old WP through Feather River Canyon.
That's interesting to learn, that the original CZ had a different route west of Winnemucca. I guess per these schedules on the Streamliner website, the stops mentioned here reflect the old Western Pacific route rather than the Southern Pacific route? http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track5/calzephyr195008.html(1950), and http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track5/calzephyr197002.html (1970) I'd suspect one reason the CZ got rerouted to the SP route west of Winnemucca, is that the WP route has less population vs. the SP route. Wonder if Amtrak CZ trains have rarely used the WP route, if the SP route had an issue(i.e. flooding) that caused trains to be rerouted?

There is a really good documentary of the original California Zephyr, called Silver Thread Through the West, which presents the history of the train and features commentary from a few people who worked on the original CZ, including a Zephyrette or two.

Here is a link to the DVD version on Amazon: https://smile.amazon.com/Silver-Thread-Through-West-California/dp/B001PF5D1U/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1499488009&sr=8-3&keywords=silver+thread+through+the+west

Here is a preview of the film on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PRVcDXLpdk
I will take a look at the preview of this video, later. I wouldn't mind watching this video about the pre-Amtrak California Zephyr, someday!
 
The current routing is the same as the original CZ from Chicago to Weso, NV just east of Winnemucca, NV. At that point, the Amtrak CZ follow the SP line over Donner Pass instead of the old WP through Feather River Canyon.
That's interesting to learn, that the original CZ had a different route west of Winnemucca. I guess per these schedules on the Streamliner website, the stops mentioned here reflect the old Western Pacific route rather than the Southern Pacific route? http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track5/calzephyr195008.html(1950), and http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track5/calzephyr197002.html (1970) I'd suspect one reason the CZ got rerouted to the SP route west of Winnemucca, is that the WP route has less population vs. the SP route. Wonder if Amtrak CZ trains have rarely used the WP route, if the SP route had an issue(i.e. flooding) that caused trains to be rerouted?
Two reasons:

  • Reno. An important destination in its own right, and even more so for the targeted (leisure) customers using the service.
  • The Western Pacific never joined Amtrak. They didn't have to; they shed the last of their passenger service and became a freight-only railroad when the original California Zephyr was discontinued in 1970. So, Amtrak had no right to use their tracks and would have had to make a separate deal to do so (as, I believe, they had to do with Katy for the Inter-American/Texas Eagle between Taylor and Temple). It was much simpler to keep using the existing Southern Pacific passenger route over the Sierra which served Reno (see above). I'm not a contract lawyer, but I imagine the legal situation might have changed after WP was acquired by UP in 1983. However, by that time passenger service through the Feather River Canyon had been abandoned for 13 years, stations would have had to be rebuilt, and, again, there's Reno. AFAIK, there have been no serious proposals to restore regular passenger service on the Feather River Route.
 
When Amtrak was formed the WP route between Winnemucca and Sacramento was mostly single track, while the SP route between Reno and Sacramento was mostly double track. (Much for the second track east of Emigrant Gap to the summit has since been removed.). So the route over the SP had less conflicts with freight traffic and was generally somewhat faster.
 
When Amtrak was formed the WP route between Winnemucca and Sacramento was mostly single track, while the SP route between Reno and Sacramento was mostly double track. (Much for the second track east of Emigrant Gap to the summit has since been removed.). So the route over the SP had less conflicts with freight traffic and was generally somewhat faster.
Interesting. Not sure where the summit in eastern California along the CZ route is, but I assume you mean the area from Emigrant Gap to Truckee, CA was where a 2nd track was removed? I don't blame Amtrak, as to them choosing the Southern Pacific route over the Western Pacific one. Which serves more populated places like Reno and Truckee, over say like Portola, CA and Gerlach, NV.

The current routing is the same as the original CZ from Chicago to Weso, NV just east of Winnemucca, NV. At that point, the Amtrak CZ follow the SP line over Donner Pass instead of the old WP through Feather River Canyon.
That's interesting to learn, that the original CZ had a different route west of Winnemucca. I guess per these schedules on the Streamliner website, the stops mentioned here reflect the old Western Pacific route rather than the Southern Pacific route? http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track5/calzephyr195008.html(1950), and http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track5/calzephyr197002.html (1970) I'd suspect one reason the CZ got rerouted to the SP route west of Winnemucca, is that the WP route has less population vs. the SP route. Wonder if Amtrak CZ trains have rarely used the WP route, if the SP route had an issue(i.e. flooding) that caused trains to be rerouted?
Two reasons:

  • Reno. An important destination in its own right, and even more so for the targeted (leisure) customers using the service.
  • The Western Pacific never joined Amtrak. They didn't have to; they shed the last of their passenger service and became a freight-only railroad when the original California Zephyr was discontinued in 1970. So, Amtrak had no right to use their tracks and would have had to make a separate deal to do so (as, I believe, they had to do with Katy for the Inter-American/Texas Eagle between Taylor and Temple). It was much simpler to keep using the existing Southern Pacific passenger route over the Sierra which served Reno (see above). I'm not a contract lawyer, but I imagine the legal situation might have changed after WP was acquired by UP in 1983. However, by that time passenger service through the Feather River Canyon had been abandoned for 13 years, stations would have had to be rebuilt, and, again, there's Reno. AFAIK, there have been no serious proposals to restore regular passenger service on the Feather River Route.
That's interesting about the Western Pacific never joining Amtrak. How many other railroads chose not to have Amtrak take over their passenger rail service, when it was formed in 1971?
 
That's interesting about the Western Pacific never joining Amtrak. How many other railroads chose not to have Amtrak take over their passenger rail service, when it was formed in 1971?
Two questions here: How many railroads voluntarily opted to stay out of Amtrak, and how many had already dumped all their passenger services and were able to say, "Nyaah nyaah!"

In the former category, to my "off-the-top-of-the-head" recollection, the big names were Southern and the Denver & Rio Grande Western. However, both voluntarily joined Amtrak several years later which is why the Crescent and the California Zephyr (between Denver and Salt Lake City) are Amtrak trains today. Santa Fe and Seaboard Coast Line were "on the fence" right up to the last minute; had either of them opted out and stayed out for more then a few years Amtrak would probably have been stillborn. The Rock Island stayed out as well, but mainly because it was too broke to afford the (very stiff!) up-front fee to join; shortly thereafter it was bankrupt. Small fry which stayed out would include the Georgia Railroad, the Reading, and the Chicago, South Shore & South Bend interurban service.

In the latter category, many (most!) railroads had already succeeded in dumping passenger service and just sat Amtrak out. The biggest names would be Kansas City Southern, the Missouri-Kansas-Texas (Katy), and a host of others that I'd have to break open the 1971 OG and spend an hour and a half typing to list.
 
The Georgia RR ran mixed passenger and freight trains over three routes from freight yards, on very loose schedules for several years, that were really only suitable for railfans to ride. They only offered coach service, which could even be in a caboose at times...

They eventually received permission to discontinue service.

The Rock, besides its subsidized commuter routes to Blue Island, and Joliet, ran service to Rock Island and Peoria.

These were remnants of its once proud fleet of "Rockets".

They even carried a privately owned dome-parlor car at times. Service ended after the Rock Island went bankrupt a few years later. (You can blame the ICC for that, as they dragged out UP's attempt to buy the Rock Island so long, that they finally withdrew their offer when the neglected road was decrepit, but that's another story).

Eventually the UP gained entrance to Chicago by buying the C&NW...
 
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