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End of W Palm Beach Safety Patrol Trains?


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#41 west point

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Posted 02 June 2017 - 03:15 PM

lets see if the safety patrol carries 500+ passengers that is 500+ PM / TM. Even auto train does not meet that metric even close.

#42 VentureForth

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Posted 02 June 2017 - 03:20 PM

It is sad to see that what used to carry 4500 students in 15 Superliners has dwindled to barely 1000 students on almost a regular length Silver Star (plus a few coaches, I guess).

But the cost at $875 PER STUDENT? Obviously that includes food and lodging in DC... Still pricey!

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#43 jis

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Posted 02 June 2017 - 04:04 PM

It is sad to see that what used to carry 4500 students in 15 Superliners has dwindled to barely 1000 students on almost a regular length Silver Star (plus a few coaches, I guess).

But the cost at $875 PER STUDENT? Obviously that includes food and lodging in DC... Still pricey!

Surely you mean Silver Meteor? Since afterall it is the Silver Meteor that gets canceled on the day of the special run?



#44 VentureForth

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Posted 02 June 2017 - 04:06 PM

Yes, I surely mean the meteor.

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#45 AmtrakBlue

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Posted 02 June 2017 - 06:11 PM

 

It is sad to see that what used to carry 4500 students in 15 Superliners has dwindled to barely 1000 students on almost a regular length Silver Star (plus a few coaches, I guess).

But the cost at $875 PER STUDENT? Obviously that includes food and lodging in DC... Still pricey!

Surely you mean Silver Meteor? Since afterall it is the Silver Meteor that gets canceled on the day of the special run?

 

And nobody on AU would be complaining if the Star got cancelled.   :ph34r:



#46 Ryan

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Posted 02 June 2017 - 06:15 PM

Untrue. There is nothing that someone here won't complain about. :D
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#47 AmtrakBlue

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Posted 02 June 2017 - 06:17 PM

Untrue. There is nothing that someone here won't complain about. :D

I stand corrected.  :D



#48 railiner

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Posted 02 June 2017 - 07:01 PM

Given a long enough notice of cancellation of a service on a particular day, I don't see what the issue is. Amtrak is not alone in doing such. I can't think of any airline or bus line that has not done something like that and offered alternatives, sometimes not even in the same day, or a full refund. Basically they have to balance goodwill vs. operational or business imperatives.

 

If the change is last minute and is not cause by a force majeure then there should be some penalty involved for the carrier. Such is enforced in the airline industry. Similar rules should exist for rail and at present they don't. But AFAIK none of the Palm Beach Patrol trips caused a last minute cancellation. There was always ample time to make alternative arrangements - annoying yes, but end of the world? No.

Some more good points....I guess "given a long enough notice of cancellation" is somewhat reasonable.  Perhaps as a compromise solution, Amtrak could instead of blocking reservations for all of the possible dates of the special operating, allow "tentative" reservation's, but with a clear disclaimer of the possibility of reservation's made for those dates being cancelled.  Kind of like its service advisories...


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#49 Devil's Advocate

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Posted 02 June 2017 - 09:10 PM

I will note that as unfortunate as it is, passengers are routinely displaced all year. A perfect example is what is occurring right now. CSX is performing track work that resulted in the cancellation of numerous trains to RVR, the Palmetto is completely cancelled between WAS-SAV and the Colonial runs an hour and thirty minutes earlier.  All remaining trains through the area are subject to major delays. Although  CSX made mention of the track work, there wasn't a date set until two weeks ago.


Trains that are impacted by maintenance generally affect every passenger equally, at least among those who purchased tickets and intended to travel on that specific route\date\time. Whereas in the case of the safety train Amtrak is quietly overbooking the same scheduling slot and then kicking one group of customers to the curb while another group continues on unimpeded. To me that's a distinction with a difference.

 

If CSX causes train cancellations why isn't there a quid pro quo for an extra trip(s) in winter ? And it is noted the WASH Richmond segment is the restricting segment.

 
That would seem to be a reasonable and practical situation that treated both parties evenly and equitably. Unfortunately Amtrak has to be extremely careful not to pick too many battles with the wrong adversaries. If a major freight railroad was annoyed enough they could join forces with their peers and simply lobby Amtrak out of meaningful existence. Even if NARP was a hundred times larger than it is now it still wouldn't have one tenth the financial and political clout of a single class one railroad.


Perhaps as a compromise solution, Amtrak could instead of blocking reservations for all of the possible dates of the special operating, allow "tentative" reservation's, but with a clear disclaimer of the possibility of reservation's made for those dates being cancelled.  Kind of like its service advisories...


That would be perfectly reasonable to me.

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#50 brianpmcdonnell17

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Posted 02 June 2017 - 09:52 PM

 

It is sad to see that what used to carry 4500 students in 15 Superliners has dwindled to barely 1000 students on almost a regular length Silver Star (plus a few coaches, I guess).

But the cost at $875 PER STUDENT? Obviously that includes food and lodging in DC... Still pricey!

Surely you mean Silver Meteor? Since afterall it is the Silver Meteor that gets canceled on the day of the special run?
 
And nobody on AU would be complaining if the Star got cancelled.   :ph34r:

That seems to be true; it seems like the SS is rarely used by members here, so much so that I feel like I have made 2-3 round trips on the SS since the last time I have heard someone else mention riding it. Was this always the case even prior to the dining car being removed? I was a member at that point but was far less active. As to the Safety Train, if it were to take up the SS slot I would still support it as the amount of revenue it generates is huge for a single round trip. Although it would be annoying coming from TPA, one round trip a year would not be that much of a problem, especially with the SM 100 miles away.
Routes Travelled: CL WAS-CHI, Card. CHI-WAS, Caro. CLT-RGH, CS SJC-LAX, Cre. BAL-ATL, EB MSP-CHI, ES NYG/NYP-NFL, LSL BOS-ALB, ML ALB-NYP, NER FBG-RVR+WAS-BOS, PS LAX-ANA, Pen. NYP-PGH, Pie. RGH-DNC, SM ORL-NYP, SS FTL-WAS
New Routes: LSL NYP-CHI, CZ CHI-RIC, CS SJC-SEA, EB SEA-MSP

#51 railiner

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Posted 02 June 2017 - 10:23 PM

The status of the Silver Meteor versus the Silver Star probably goes back all the way to the Seaboard Air Line RR era, which started those trains....one memorable difference were the unique "sun lounge", glass top sleeper lounge cars only on the Meteor....


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#52 jis

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Posted 02 June 2017 - 11:01 PM

Speaking of the SS not being used by members here, these days I almost exclusively use the SS. This year I have already used it four times and will use it at least another four times, and don't have any plans to use the SM.

#53 Seaboard92

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Posted 03 June 2017 - 12:17 AM

I almost exclusively use the Star so far I'm up to trip three on it vs two on the Meteor. And who knows where the year will end.

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Amtrak Routes I've riden: Silver Star(NYP-ORL), Silver Meteor(KIS-NYP),Carolinian(CLT-NWK), Palmetto (FLO-NYP), Acela(WAS-NYP), NE Regional(WBG-RVR), Pacific Surfliner(SAN-OSD), Piedmont(CLT-SAL), Crescent(NYP-CLT), Cardinal (WAS-CHI), Capitol Limited (CHI-WAS), Cascade (PDX-SEA)

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#54 brianpmcdonnell17

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Posted 03 June 2017 - 12:32 AM

Speaking of the SS not being used by members here, these days I almost exclusively use the SS. This year I have already used it four times and will use it at least another four times, and don't have any plans to use the SM.

I almost exclusively use the Star so far I'm up to trip three on it vs two on the Meteor. And who knows where the year will end.

Part of the reason it appears that many more members ride the SM may be that they are simply more vocal about it; I have never seen either of you post in the upcoming trip threads. Although I generally prefer the SM schedules, I almost always use the SS to avoid the bus ride from Tampa to Orlando. In fact, I have never ridden the SM southbound. The three times I took it north were to make same-day connections to Niagara Falls and Chicago, plus one trip where I was going with my dad to New York and the schedule allowed to him to pay for one less night in a hotel. I will likely ride it again in December for my first cross-country trip. In comparison, I have been on the SS 15 times and have 4 more trips planned in the next 8 weeks. If the SS ever gains a guaranteed connection with the Capitol Limited, I may never ride the SM again. The diner would be nice to have back, but in reality I would rarely use it, at least for the next few years until I graduate college. What are your reasons for choosing the SS?

Edited by brianpmcdonnell17, 03 June 2017 - 12:41 AM.

Routes Travelled: CL WAS-CHI, Card. CHI-WAS, Caro. CLT-RGH, CS SJC-LAX, Cre. BAL-ATL, EB MSP-CHI, ES NYG/NYP-NFL, LSL BOS-ALB, ML ALB-NYP, NER FBG-RVR+WAS-BOS, PS LAX-ANA, Pen. NYP-PGH, Pie. RGH-DNC, SM ORL-NYP, SS FTL-WAS
New Routes: LSL NYP-CHI, CZ CHI-RIC, CS SJC-SEA, EB SEA-MSP

#55 Seaboard92

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Posted 03 June 2017 - 10:27 AM

My reasons for the Silver Star is mostly because it's close to my house. Coming south I can be in my bed if on time no later then 115 am. And on the Meteor it's more like 445 before I can be in bed.

I also really like some of the SCAs because they are pretty amazing to hang out with. And Flory the LsA is amazing too.

Other then the convenience issue I don't really care which one I use. When connecting to the westbound Capitol Limited I take the Meteor. Also when going to Washington-New York because I can get there in the morning for a full day of fun wherever.

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Amtrak Routes I've riden: Silver Star(NYP-ORL), Silver Meteor(KIS-NYP),Carolinian(CLT-NWK), Palmetto (FLO-NYP), Acela(WAS-NYP), NE Regional(WBG-RVR), Pacific Surfliner(SAN-OSD), Piedmont(CLT-SAL), Crescent(NYP-CLT), Cardinal (WAS-CHI), Capitol Limited (CHI-WAS), Cascade (PDX-SEA)

Steam Engines I've worked behind

Norfolk & Western No. 611

Nickel Plate Road No. 765

Southern Pacific No. 4449

 


#56 jis

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Posted 03 June 2017 - 11:19 AM

The Sleepers are cheaper. I seldom make full use of the Diner anyway. Too much food that I pay for on SM that I use less than half of. The late in the day departure from Florida northbound and earlier arrival in Florida southbound also is attractive since it allows me to work most of the day back home.

#57 Thirdrail7

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 11:28 AM

http://www.palmbeach...UCHXhL58hEHnZN/

I am not sure if this is real news or a PR bit from the local airport. I guess will see next year (2018) if there is a safety patrol train or not
 

 

 

 

alive.jpg

 

 

The website shows 98(8Feb18),97(11Feb18), 98(15Feb18), 97(18Feb18) as sold out. I"m willing to bet this is for the West Palm Beach special.


Edited by Thirdrail7, 08 October 2017 - 11:28 AM.

They say laughter is the best medicine. Obviously they never posted on AU.


#58 neroden

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Posted 09 October 2017 - 08:46 AM

That would seem to be a reasonable and practical situation that treated both parties evenly and equitably. Unfortunately Amtrak has to be extremely careful not to pick too many battles with the wrong adversaries. If a major freight railroad was annoyed enough they could join forces with their peers and simply lobby Amtrak out of meaningful existence. Even if NARP was a hundred times larger than it is now it still wouldn't have one tenth the financial and political clout of a single class one railroad.

While this is true, I think the class I freights overestimate their financial and political clout substantially, particularly when they're picking fights with Amtrak -- they've made a lot of powerful enemies. There are definitely states where Amtrak has far more political clout than the Class Is -- Massachusetts is the most obvious one, but I submit that California and Washington probably qualify too. Unfortunately I'm quite sure Florida, Georgia, or South Carolina do not fall into that category, so it's a bad place to pick a fight with CSX.

Put it this way: when CSX reduced Amtrak service for trackwork in upstate NY, you got complaints from state legislators, pretty much immediately. That's sort of a minimum requirement for whether Amtrak might be able to fight over an issue. (In the case of NY, the state rarely puts its money where its mouth is, so it's not as good for Amtrak as Massachusetts, which does.) I've never heard a state legislator complain about the cancellations in Georgia, South Carolina, or Florida.

Edited by neroden, 09 October 2017 - 08:47 AM.

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#59 jis

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Posted 09 October 2017 - 09:27 AM

Actually the Class I freights have their clout for the same reason that the highway lobby has its clout. More people depend on them than depend on Amtrak, and hence they have a larger set of stakeholders. There is just no getting past that reality, except in our fantasies and delusions.



#60 neroden

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Posted 09 October 2017 - 09:44 AM

Actually the Class I freights have their clout for the same reason that the highway lobby has its clout. More people depend on them than depend on Amtrak, and hence they have a larger set of stakeholders. There is just no getting past that reality, except in our fantasies and delusions.


Very few people depend on them, that's the thing. They overestimate their clout badly. "Switching to the highways" is a thing, and it happens every time they act like idiots.

They have a TINY set of stakeholders. Mining (including coal, which is dying), bulk agriculture, chemicals, and a few large trucking companies. Many of those stakeholders (particularly the ag and chemical groups) actively hate them and are campaigning for rate regulation. There are also small shippers, but they *really* detest the way the Class Is act. The trucking companies will use the Class Is if it's convenient but obviously have no loyalty at all.

I follow the industry, you know.

I guess based on what I know of the history that they've been overestimating their clout since the 1950s, so it's a business culture thing. The younger leaders seem to understand the situation better than old fossils like Hunter Harrison; I haven't seen BNSF or (post-Harrison) CP trying to throw its weight around in the sort of stupid way that CSX has been doing. Nor has UP since the Sunset Limited hissy fit, which never made it to the attention of legislators or the general public anyway. Cooperative, cooperative, cooperative, "but we need to be compensated", is the pitch from those railroads, and it works better.

CSX, though, ye gods, attitude problems everywhere. They have much less clout than they think.

Edited by neroden, 09 October 2017 - 09:51 AM.

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