LIRR and NJT Pressuring Amtrak to give up NY Penn Station

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The news that has come right after the three derailments at NY Penn Station last month is that the LIRR, and NJT is pressuring Amtrak to give up their rights to own and operate Penn Station. It is alleged that Amtrak is not doing a good job at maintaining the tracks/switches and other facilities.in the station and that NY and NJ could do a better job. Really!

Despite the political grandstanding and the nonsensical arguments being made, it is imperative that Amtrak keep control of Penn station. If they relinquish ownership, why before you know it there will be no priorities for the boarding and dispatch of Amtrak trains. Lateness will become epidemic, a chaotic situation will result that could bring down the system. We must petition Amtrak and request that they hold on to Penn Station now and in the future. The very heart of the Eastern US passenger rail system is at stake.
 
I agree that Amtrak should retain ownership, control, and responsibilities for maintaining Penn Station, but as I've predicted earlier, their neglect has gotten them into this position of having to defend their rights...
 
I agree that Amtrak should retain ownership, control, and responsibilities for maintaining Penn Station, but as I've predicted earlier, their neglect has gotten them into this position of having to defend their rights...

The issue is curtailing your tenants. If your tenants continually wreck the joint, stuff 13 people in a two bedroom apartment and rarely let you in with ample time to execute repairs, why should they really complain?

Besides, the irony of this is thick. A state that has a funding crisis so deep that it is

a) looking to toll free bridge to help close the deficit,

b) can't afford to overhaul or expand its own subway system that is bursting at the seams,

c) is still in the throes of dealing with Metro-North's 8 year project to rebuild their entire railroad(a project that began in 1998 or so),

d) is struggling with the completion of East Side Access,

e) and still hasn't finished modernizing the east of of the LIRR system

wants to team with another state that

f) has a bankrupted their transportation trust fund,

g) hasn't come up with a lucid plan to keep it solvent,

h) starved their transit agency to the point they routinely used their capital projects fund to pay for operating expenses,

i) and flooded a large portion their fleet a few years ago

so that they can control Penn Station together? Such a collaboration would be similarly similar to the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which is an agency that

j) runs PATH at an extreme deficit

k) presides over one of the most expensive (and busiest) bridge in the United States (the infamous GWB)

l) presides over some of the worst (and busiest) airports in the country

m) and after almost 90 years into their existence, are they finally getting around to possibly working on the project for which the agency was formed: a cross NY harbor freight tunnel.

Additionally, the two states leading this agency play together so terribly, they don't know what each side is up to.

That is a splendid plan. I can see it now if one of them doesn't get the office they feel they deserve: time for some transit problems at Secaucus!!
 
Well put Thirdrail. Exactly my thoughts. The broke blind trying to lead the broke deaf on the path to become a millionaire. Meanwhile King Cuomo has already figured out a way to **** away another billion on yet another pointless boondoggle of another Airtrain headed in the wrong direction, which as usual will be years late and zillions over budget.
 
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How will NJT and LIRR get more funding out of Congress than Amtrak for maintenance and replacements at NYP. I think the two Governors was to say to the riders in their states: See I tried to correct the situation but Congress overruled. All political, in fact, do they really want the responsibility and the exposure when everything falls apart.
 
A part of me is tempted to propose actually selling it to them, on the condition of tunnel access, specific platforms and tracks reserved exclusively for Amtrak use, then let the new owners pay for completely rebuilding (and expanding) the physical plant and Gateway. Which they can't do; Neither NJ Transit nor LIRR have the budget any more than Amtrak does to properly address Penn Station's issues - let alone actually buy the joint. I'd like to see them explain their plan for all that.....

Gee, I know grandstanding is expected in a political environment, but such doesn't do a thing to actually address a legitimate problem. As the country screams for infrastructure investment, we can't seem to get around to it - we're too busy playing politics, at both the state and federal level.
 
NJT and the LIRR account for 92% of the wear, and tear on the tracks and the station. Amtrak only has 8% of the daily train arrivals and departures. Due to NJT and LIRR's 600,000 daily ridership numbers, the track repair became necessary for the immense wear that these operations have caused, There will be periodic service disruptions this summer to repair the tracks and politicians are quick to point the finger. Of the 1200 trains that arrive and depart Penn station each day Amtrak has less than 100. NJT and LIRR has the rest.

If the truth be told, that underground catacomb cannot handle the large load placed on it by NJT and LIRR, so Amtrak becomes the fuel for the political argument that they are doing a bad job. I say to NYC , LIRR and NJT cough up the money for the stalled Gateway project and build a new station that can handle the traffic. They obviously don't want to do it. They just want to grandstand and ***** the loudest for votes.
 
If the "hot" potato actually fell into Christi's and Cuomo's laps, how fast would they be deflecting it off to someone else. They know all with NYP station ownership is negative publicity, potentially ending a political career. They know they can make bad publicity today for Amtrak knowing that they are safe from actually getting the responsibility they say they want. It's a fine line saying what makes the voters rally to you verses what you really want to happen.
 
I know there has been lots of tension regarding the Moynihan expansion. Its all funded and ready to go. A giant, proper station. Lots of space, and a mall. But no actual track capacity improvements. Amtrak would rather the money go to track work, but as much of the money comes from the future tenants of the mall, the priority seems to be heading to that.
 
lets see, how much LIRR and NJT are willing to pay for buying Penn Station from owner ??

They are nothing more than renters in Amtrak owned facility.
Indeed, Amtrak just paid off a $300 million mortgage on Penn Station. That was the value back in 2001 (probably under 80% of value, really). Adjusting for inflation I'd guesstimate $525 million as a minimum price. And of course LIRR and NJT take over maintenance costs. Are LIRR and NJT ready to pony up? If so, I'm OK with that -- an extra half bil could go a long way towards Amtrak's National Network needs :)
 
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I agree that Amtrak should retain ownership, control, and responsibilities for maintaining Penn Station, but as I've predicted earlier, their neglect has gotten them into this position of having to defend their rights...

The issue is curtailing your tenants. If your tenants continually wreck the joint, stuff 13 people in a two bedroom apartment and rarely let you in with ample time to execute repairs, why should they really complain?

Besides, the irony of this is thick. A state that has a funding crisis so deep that it is

a) looking to toll free bridge to help close the deficit,

b) can't afford to overhaul or expand its own subway system that is bursting at the seams,

c) is still in the throes of dealing with Metro-North's 8 year project to rebuild their entire railroad(a project that began in 1998 or so),

d) is struggling with the completion of East Side Access,

e) and still hasn't finished modernizing the east of of the LIRR system

wants to team with another state that

f) has a bankrupted their transportation trust fund,

g) hasn't come up with a lucid plan to keep it solvent,

h) starved their transit agency to the point they routinely used their capital projects fund to pay for operating expenses,

i) and flooded a large portion their fleet a few years ago

so that they can control Penn Station together? Such a collaboration would be similarly similar to the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which is an agency that

j) runs PATH at an extreme deficit

k) presides over one of the most expensive (and busiest) bridge in the United States (the infamous GWB)

l) presides over some of the worst (and busiest) airports in the country

m) and after almost 90 years into their existence, are they finally getting around to possibly working on the project for which the agency was formed: a cross NY harbor freight tunnel.

Additionally, the two states leading this agency play together so terribly, they don't know what each side is up to.

That is a splendid plan. I can see it now if one of them doesn't get the office they feel they deserve: time for some transit problems at Secaucus!!
This is one of the best summaries of the history of NY and NJ transpo policy I've ever seen. Congrats.
 
In my dreams, I see Amtrak building an all new high speed NEC with a new station at New York and all.....and just abandoning the present NEC, and telling all the commuter agencies that share it: "It's yours...good luck with it!" :)
 
Indeed, Amtrak just paid off a $300 million mortgage on Penn Station. That was the value back in 2001 (probably under 80% of value, really). Adjusting for inflation I'd guesstimate $525 million as a minimum price. And of course LIRR and NJT take over maintenance costs. Are LIRR and NJT ready to pony up? If so, I'm OK with that -- an extra half bil could go a long way towards Amtrak's National Network needs :)
A real estate broker stated to us that anything over 30% would be highly unlikely. So that would put the value at start of mortgage at a cool $1B and with inflation around #1.9B. Hey MTA & NJT wanna buy ?
 
The latest news from NYC is to evict Amtrak LD trains from Penn station and move them over to Grand Central Terminal so that NJT and LIRR will not experience delays during track work. While the surroundings at Grand Central are nice, I am not sure how this deal is going to work out as Metro North keeps that place busy.
 
The latest news from NYC is to evict Amtrak LD trains from Penn station and move them over to Grand Central Terminal so that NJT and LIRR will not experience delays during track work. While the surroundings at Grand Central are nice, I am not sure how this deal is going to work out as Metro North keeps that place busy.
AFAIK, absolutely no one has said that until now. You certainly have a first here unless you can produce a definitive cite. ;)
All that has been mentioned are three Albany trains for a limited period of time.
 
How are they going to evict Amtrak Trains when Amtrak owns NYP?

This thread already has provided the info that only a few Empire Service Trains will be moved to GCT and NO LD Trains.
This is the Grand Central thread which is why I didn't bother to post anything here. I don't remember where the general thread for operations, so I never brought up all of the speculation. To save myself time, here is my post from another board:

It has more to do with station dwell, a lack of track space and the work being performed on the east end than the approach to the Empire connection. They are trying to create track space because in addition to work in Penn Station, there are plans under consideration to tackle things between NWK-NYP while traffic is down. If things comes to fruition, you will probably see some unusual moves. Things under consideration include sending Midclowns back in Hoboken, the Raritans back in Newark, sending 3 Albany trains to GCT along with combining 63/69 to ALB, turning a bunch of Keystones turning in Newark, eliminating three 3 regional round trips between NYP-WAS, eliminating an Acela round trip between NYP-WAS and if it can be handled, possibly turning the Crescent in WAS.

As previously stated, there are a lot of options and constraints being evaluated.
When someone mentioned the Crescent turning in BAL and the lack of space in WAS, this was my reply:

With three less regional trains to service, they feel they can same day turn 20 for 19...providing NS agrees to allow a later departure from DC (which is pending.) That will allow some cushion for delays. As you indicated, where do you put the connecting luggage and passengers since regional trains are well represented? My vote was for continued operation to NYP (but that puts them in NYP at the same time) and if that isn't possible, push 20 to PHL since was is short on space. At least in PHL, you have keystones to help absorb some of the passengers. You can deadhead the equipment to NYP off peak. Turning 20 to 19 in PHL could work if you allowed the set to layover. However, you don't have a commissary in PHL. In both cases, you also have an orphan set of equipment, that the locals aren't familiar with and a lack of parts/replacements if things go wrong. However, it is temporary and perhaps they can move manpower and establish a protect in WAS from the extra set.

There was also talk about turning 48/49 at ALB but ALB stated they couldn't really handle it reliably on a consistent basis. Running the whole thing to Boston isn't likely since they stated the yard couldn't handle 48's the entire consist in their facility at this time.

It will be interesting to see what actually occurs.
So, it isn't a matter of eviction. It is about the perception of equal sacrifice. It is this kind of petty bull crap that led to the lack of maintenance and why there hasn't been any major repairs on any of the tunnels. Everyone is so busy posturing, jockeying and pointing fingers, nothing gets accomplished.
 
Amtrak cannot keep turning the Crescent to New Orleans. Now if the Meteor and Crescent both started interchanging their equipment at PHL or WASH it might work plus would give additional equipment. for single level service.i
 
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