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NARP's "Vision For Trains In America"


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#21 ainamkartma

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 02:46 PM

 

 

It is all a matter of needing a lot more equipment. The SWC reroute can be handled another way. Just run the SWC same route but have Coach(s), lounge, and a sleeper go on the shorter route and split combine train back at split points. Newton and Albuquerque higher speed route will get both Amarillo and Wichita. Shorter route via Amarillo would arrive at ABQ and Newton 95% (?) of time before the Raton route would.
Only problem at ABQ is the wrong direction for Amarillo train.

 

How is the direction at ABQ even an issue if you are splitting and joining the train there? Would you not just have the Amarillo section reverse direction at ABQ?  I guess the locomotive would have to turn around on the wye...

 

Ainamkartma

 

You could do that, but the Amarillo section would then continue its journey with people in coach riding backwards.  Lots of people do not like riding backwards, escpecially the ones from Wichita, Amaraillo and burgs in between. :)

 

 

Huh. And yet people pay big bucks to ride backwards in sleepers.  It puzzles me because I personally just don't care much which way I face on a train, as long as I am next to a window.

 

Ainamkartma



#22 west point

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 03:32 PM

Belen can work as well. Where ever cut / combine occurs it should be quicker than Spokane as one train ( probably the Amarillo section ) will be waiting to recombine with other ( Raton ).

#23 Philly Amtrak Fan

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 04:30 PM

I thought the "plan" was for a flat out reroute and not a through car branch. Is there even any switching cap at Amarillo? And if you're going to add through cars to the SWC wouldn't it make more sense to do Denver-Pueblo-somewhere (and I have no idea where the split would be) rather than a Wichita branch?


Trains Traveled: Broadway Limited (CHI-Harrisburg, PA), Three Rivers (Harrisburg, PA-CHI, Altoona, PA-CHI, PHL-CHI), Capitol Limited (CHI-WAS), Lake Shore Limited (NYP-CHI), , Silver Meteor (PHL-ORL), Southwest Chief (CHI-LAX), California Zephyr (CHI-SLC, SLC-EMY), City of New Orleans and/or Illini (CHI-Champaign, IL)
Bring back the Broadway Limited (or Three Rivers or any Chicago-Pittsburgh-Philly train)!
 
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#24 Metra Electric Rider

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 04:33 PM

Wait, a train from Chicago to Madison that doesn't go through Monroe? But how will I get to Cheese Days?


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#25 railiner

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 06:40 PM

 

If there's going to be two trains, the Amarillo train would not need to go into Albuquerque. It could stop at Belen, with a Thruway connection to save time...



Maybe they could work with the RailRunner for the connection so that passengers could take trains the whole way; it would also allow for access to Santa Fe without a second connection.

 

There is nothing wrong with Amtrak having an interline ticketing arrangement with the RailRunner....however, the Thruway buses would be dedicated to making the connection with Amtrak, no matter how late it might be running...not likely that a scheduled RailRunner would be able to do likewise...


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#26 railiner

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 06:53 PM

I thought the "plan" was for a flat out reroute and not a through car branch. Is there even any switching cap at Amarillo? And if you're going to add through cars to the SWC wouldn't it make more sense to do Denver-Pueblo-somewhere (and I have no idea where the split would be) rather than a Wichita branch?

We're talking about the NARP dream of added service...not the separate plans that were to reroute the SWC, if the original route could not be maintained any longer.

 

In any event, the two lines merge again at Dalies, NM, just a short distance from Belen and Albuquerque.  The Santa Fe lines form a sort of triangle in the area...The north-south line from Albuquerque to El Paso, crosses the east-west Transcon line at Belen.   The third side of the triangle is the line from Isleta (between Albuquerque and Belen) that "cuts the corner" northeast to southwest to Dalies....the route that the SWC currently uses...


Edited by railiner, 11 May 2017 - 06:54 PM.

metroblue?

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#27 neroden

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 08:28 PM

FWIW, even NARP doesn't dream big enough -- they are missing, for example, the Syracuse-Binghamton route which actually has the support of Senator Schumer.

 

I would say that their map is... not locally vetted.


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#28 CHamilton

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Posted 12 May 2017 - 10:52 AM

That map is several years old. Look for an updated version later this year.


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#29 jis

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Posted 12 May 2017 - 01:21 PM

That map is several years old. Look for an updated version later this year.

I have submitted a fix to the Southeastern part of the map couple of times including Brightline planned lines. I wonder if it will finds its way into the revision. No one from NARP has even bothered to acknowledge that they received the message(s) ;)



#30 Carolina Special

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Posted 12 May 2017 - 04:29 PM

Seems like multiple maps are needed, each tied to different levels of funding provided, including the capital and operating spending. Get $5 nil, can do this. Get $10 nil, can do this, and so forth with specified priorities and estimates of increased traffic for each alternative.

A working plan with numbers speaks louder than simple lines on a map.

You will have to provide a solid alternative to just pumping any extra Amtrak spending into the NEC repairs, which can easily soak up any additional funding. And probably will, in my usual cynical view.

Edited by Carolina Special, 12 May 2017 - 04:31 PM.


#31 jis

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Posted 12 May 2017 - 04:40 PM

This map is about passenger rail service, not necessarily all Amtrak. It is assumed that there will be multiple and diverse sources of funding from many levels of government and incentivized private investments too.

#32 dlagrua

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 02:22 PM

Looked at the Amtrak Map proposal. What no CHI-MIA Floridian with stops in Nashville and Louisville.?  Its a gyp! They can't even fantasize right.

ze right..



#33 Philly Amtrak Fan

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 03:27 PM

Looked at the Amtrak Map proposal. What no CHI-MIA Floridian with stops in Nashville and Louisville.?  Its a gyp! They can't even fantasize right.

ze right..

 

Not exactly the original Amtrak route (http://www.timetable...10501&item=0025 ) but the map has a CHI-Nashville route. Then it could go one of two ways:

 

1) Nashville-Chattanooga-Atlanta-Macon-Savannah-Silver Star/Meteor route

 

2) Nashville-Birmingham-Montgomery-Pensacola-Tallahassee-Jacksonville-Silver Star/Meteor route

 

The second route covers most of the Floridian route between CHI-Montgomery and the SS/SM route and adds two cities along the old SL East route while the first adds Atlanta.


Trains Traveled: Broadway Limited (CHI-Harrisburg, PA), Three Rivers (Harrisburg, PA-CHI, Altoona, PA-CHI, PHL-CHI), Capitol Limited (CHI-WAS), Lake Shore Limited (NYP-CHI), , Silver Meteor (PHL-ORL), Southwest Chief (CHI-LAX), California Zephyr (CHI-SLC, SLC-EMY), City of New Orleans and/or Illini (CHI-Champaign, IL)
Bring back the Broadway Limited (or Three Rivers or any Chicago-Pittsburgh-Philly train)!
 
https://www.facebook...roadwayLimited/


#34 brianpmcdonnell17

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 04:13 PM

Looked at the Amtrak Map proposal. What no CHI-MIA Floridian with stops in Nashville and Louisville.?  Its a gyp! They can't even fantasize right.
ze right..

 
Not exactly the original Amtrak route (http://www.timetable...10501&item=0025 ) but the map has a CHI-Nashville route. Then it could go one of two ways:
 
1) Nashville-Chattanooga-Atlanta-Macon-Savannah-Silver Star/Meteor route
 
2) Nashville-Birmingham-Montgomery-Pensacola-Tallahassee-Jacksonville-Silver Star/Meteor route
 
The second route covers most of the Floridian route between CHI-Montgomery and the SS/SM route and adds two cities along the old SL East route while the first adds Atlanta.

My guess is if such a map were to come to exist the primary CHI-Florida route would be via Atlanta and the further west option that merges with the Gulf Coast route west of JAX. The Birmingham option would miss the largest intermediate market on the entire route and the Savannah route would likely be significantly longer than the other ATL-Florida route. However, if all the routes were actually implemented there is no reason there could not be at least one Chicago-Florida train on each of them.

As a side note, does that map seriously have Rockford written as Rutherford?

Edited by brianpmcdonnell17, 16 May 2017 - 04:19 PM.

Routes Travelled: CL WAS-CHI, Card. CHI-WAS, Caro. CLT-RGH, CS SJC-LAX, Cre. BAL-ATL, EB MSP-CHI, ES NYG/NYP-NFL, LSL BOS-ALB, ML ALB-NYP, NER FBG-RVR+WAS-BOS, PS LAX-ANA, Pen. NYP-PGH, Pie. RGH-DNC, SM ORL-NYP, SS FTL-WAS
New Routes: LSL NYP-CHI, CZ CHI-RIC, CS SJC-SEA, EB SEA-MSP

#35 Philly Amtrak Fan

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 06:53 PM

After discussing the Floridian revival, other discontinued routes:

 

The Broadway Limited/Three Rivers route looks to be covered for the most part (CHI-Ft. Wayne-Lima-Youngstown-PGH-Pennsylvanian route). Of course they could always do CL-Pennsylvanian.

 

The National Limited is covered.

 

The Lone Star is intact with the possible exception of the DAL-HOS route might be different than the old route (NARP's DAL-HOS goes through Bryan). 

 

The Desert Wind, Pioneer, and North Coast Hiawatha look like the old routes.

 

If timed correctly, you can allow NL-SWC at KCY, NL-LS at KCY, and NL-TE at STL. Hopefully this will divert some passengers away from CHI. You could even extend the NL to DAL-FTW-HOS to give a one seat ride from the NEC to/from Texas.

 

Other possibilities:

 

The SL could be routed from NOL to Shreveport-DAL/FTW-Abilene and rejoin the current SL route somewhere before ELP (hopefully go through Phoenix).

 

You could have a SAS-HOS-NOL-Mobile-Pensacola-Tallahassee-JAX-ORL-MIA (w/ or w/o TPA). This would preserve SAS-HOS-NOL. You could also continue the Lone Star from HOS to NOL so you don'tt need service facilities at Houston.


Trains Traveled: Broadway Limited (CHI-Harrisburg, PA), Three Rivers (Harrisburg, PA-CHI, Altoona, PA-CHI, PHL-CHI), Capitol Limited (CHI-WAS), Lake Shore Limited (NYP-CHI), , Silver Meteor (PHL-ORL), Southwest Chief (CHI-LAX), California Zephyr (CHI-SLC, SLC-EMY), City of New Orleans and/or Illini (CHI-Champaign, IL)
Bring back the Broadway Limited (or Three Rivers or any Chicago-Pittsburgh-Philly train)!
 
https://www.facebook...roadwayLimited/


#36 Anderson

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 09:29 AM

The "vision map" is a few years out of date.  The staff has, in particular, acknowledged the need to add Cocoa-Orlando to the map, and as Charlie said an update is coming at some point in the not-too-distant future.

To be clear, the map was based around "What can we do with existing tracks and/or minimal additions thereunto?" and "How many cities of X size or larger can we cover with that constraint?"  I've also pushed for them to put together some intermediate steps between the present system and that map...obviously, there are some routes which would do more for one reason or another than other routes (e.g. Brightline and some of the CA services will likely generate millions of riders while some rural services, even though necessary to offer some form of transportation to people in those parts of the country, simply won't have much "bang for buck").


Capitol Limited (7), CA Zephyr (4) Lake Shore Limited (1), Acela (2), NE Regional (2), Sliver Meteor (4)

Upcoming: Silver Meteor (1), Lake Shore Limited (1), SW Chief (2), MO River Runner (1), Texas Eagle (1)

Possibly Upcoming: Either Texas Eagle (1), Capitol Limited (1), Silver Meteor (2) or Texas Eagle (1), Capitol Limited (1), Silver Meteor (1)

#37 jis

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 10:02 AM

The "vision map" is a few years out of date.  The staff has, in particular, acknowledged the need to add Cocoa-Orlando to the map, and as Charlie said an update is coming at some point in the not-too-distant future.

I finally got an email Ack from NARP staff.

There are a few other minor glitches that need fixing too. I guess I will chase down Abe with those since he is the one that seems to actually respond to anything.

Edited by jis, 17 May 2017 - 10:06 AM.


#38 WoodyinNYC

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 11:09 AM

The "vision map" is a few years out of date ... an update is coming at some point in the not-too-distant future.

To be clear, the map was based around "What can we do with existing tracks and/or minimal additions thereunto?" and "How many cities of X size or larger can we cover with that constraint?"  I've also pushed for them to put together some intermediate steps between the present system and that map...obviously, there are some routes which would do more for one reason or another than other routes ...

In other words, it would help things to prioritize.

 

We don't have to be cannibals  :giggle: to know that some routes are better than others. Upgrading some routes will cost less than upgrading others, because of tracks too far deteriorated. Some host railroads will need government money to handle new or more frequent passenger service. Other hosts will be completely unreasonable. Some routes have growing populations while other regions are stagnant. And so forth. (For this purpose, of long range thinking, political obstacles, e.g., Gov Scott, Gov Kasich, can be largely ignored.)

 

So we need a ranking, with the low hanging fruit at the top, and the nostalgic wishes and dreams toward the bottom. Or the 'more bang for the buck' at the top, however to phrase it.

 

NARP will have internal battles if it tries to rank the priorities. Good. NARP needs to think seriously about what each route deserves, and not cover up the political thing by saying that all trains and all routes are equally desirable.


Edited by WoodyinNYC, 17 May 2017 - 11:11 AM.


#39 railiner

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 12:20 PM

After discussing the Floridian revival, other discontinued routes:
 
The Broadway Limited/Three Rivers route looks to be covered for the most part (CHI-Ft. Wayne-Lima-Youngstown-PGH-Pennsylvanian route). Of course they could always do CL-Pennsylvanian.
 
The National Limited is covered.
 
The Lone Star is intact with the possible exception of the DAL-HOS route might be different than the old route (NARP's DAL-HOS goes through Bryan). 
 
The Desert Wind, Pioneer, and North Coast Hiawatha look like the old routes.
 
If timed correctly, you can allow NL-SWC at KCY, NL-LS at KCY, and NL-TE at STL. Hopefully this will divert some passengers away from CHI. You could even extend the NL to DAL-FTW-HOS to give a one seat ride from the NEC to/from Texas.
 
Other possibilities:
 
The SL could be routed from NOL to Shreveport-DAL/FTW-Abilene and rejoin the current SL route somewhere before ELP (hopefully go through Phoenix).
 
You could have a SAS-HOS-NOL-Mobile-Pensacola-Tallahassee-JAX-ORL-MIA (w/ or w/o TPA). This would preserve SAS-HOS-NOL. You could also continue the Lone Star from HOS to NOL so you don'tt need service facilities at Houston.


While you're dreaming, you could also route the NL via Joplin, Tulsa, OKC, Amarillo, etc... :)
metroblue?

okay on the blue!

#40 jis

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 12:23 PM

Or like someone in Facebook did, plan on having Morgantown West Virginia served by four different bullet train routes, Heh heh :P




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