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Dade Official Proposes Hyperloop That Would Connect Miami To Orlando I


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#1 Caesar La Rock

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 08:13 PM

Not sure if this is the right topic for this, but interesting.

 

Miami to Orlando could be among the first Hyperloop routes in the country, with a travel time of just over 26 minutes.

 

The route was one of eleven announced as finalists today by Hyperloop One, which has hundreds of employees working on a prototype. Two or three will eventually be selected to build.

 

State and local officials are said to be a part of the proposal. Alice Bravo, Miami-Dade director of public works, told The Verge that the route would transport tourists between Miami and Orlando, as well as cargo from the Port of Miami.

 

The 26 minute trip time compares to 3 hours and 40 minutes by bus or 55 minutes by plane. Bravo also said that the hyperloop from Miami could eventually extend to Atlanta or Chicago.

 

“We think this is a corridor that could serve as a national stimulus,” Bravo said, “for this area of innovation and human capital intellect.”

 

A press release from Hyperloop One also said that Florida Department of Transportation officials are a part of the proposal.

 

Read more:Source


Edited by Caesar La Rock, 06 April 2017 - 08:13 PM.


#2 A Voice

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 08:45 PM

Setting aside the extent to which Hyperloop is a boondoggle on an unprecedented scale, notice they compared trip times only to bus and plane - not a mention of rail - not even Brightline.  



#3 mfastx

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 11:12 PM

Setting aside the extent to which Hyperloop is a boondoggle on an unprecedented scale, notice they compared trip times only to bus and plane - not a mention of rail - not even Brightline.  

 

Although it certainly would seem like a boondoggle since the technology is unproven, if that 26 minute figure is anywhere remotely close to accurate and wasn't prohibitively expensive, it would immediately dominate the market share between the two cities.  I suspect they didn't mention Brightline times because they don't exist yet. 



#4 Green Maned Lion

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 09:36 AM

I looked at the idea of a hyperloop style idea once in my head. I concluded the materials needed to maintain vacuum on that scale would be not only prohibitive, but possibly unattainable. That being said, I once felt that way about electric cars and the same man who proposed this single handedly proved me wrong.

I'm taking a wait and see. I suspect that when steam powered rail vehicles were first proposed, everybody thought that was a boondoggle too.
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#5 XHRTSP

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 02:08 PM

That being said, I once felt that way about electric cars and the same man who proposed this single handedly proved me wrong.

 

Electric cars have existed for decades now.  It was just a matter of enough small incremental battery improvements adding up to make them competitive with internal combustions for most consumer's use.  This hyperloop is a completely new ballgame and I find it ludicrous that these lines are being considered as a proof of concept.  How about a five mile track out in the desert first and make sure this actually works at scale.



#6 Anderson

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 02:30 PM

 

That being said, I once felt that way about electric cars and the same man who proposed this single handedly proved me wrong.

 

Electric cars have existed for decades now.  It was just a matter of enough small incremental battery improvements adding up to make them competitive with internal combustions for most consumer's use.  This hyperloop is a completely new ballgame and I find it ludicrous that these lines are being considered as a proof of concept.  How about a five mile track out in the desert first and make sure this actually works at scale.

 

To say nothing of the issues evaluating Musk's suggested capacity levels.

I personally like a different title for this thread: "Dade Official Goes Hyperloopy".


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#7 VentureForth

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 02:55 PM

Such old 1870's technology.

 

To GML's point, a 500 meter test track is completely worthless.  They need at least a five mile circuit with intermediate stops, curves, elevation changes, etc.

 

That being said, the vacuum can be segmented with bulkheads and multiple suction points.  But my understanding is that this won't really be vacuum powered.  It's supposed to be maglev, but with a vacuum to reduce friction.


Edited by VentureForth, 07 April 2017 - 02:57 PM.

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#8 Anderson

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 05:10 PM

Such old 1870's technology.

 

To GML's point, a 500 meter test track is completely worthless.  They need at least a five mile circuit with intermediate stops, curves, elevation changes, etc.

 

That being said, the vacuum can be segmented with bulkheads and multiple suction points.  But my understanding is that this won't really be vacuum powered.  It's supposed to be maglev, but with a vacuum to reduce friction.

The key difference is the speed that's being sold, and that has major implications.  Even noting that it's a vacuum-based maglev, there's a very real issue of even theoretically being able to stop a vehicle if a "technical issue" (e.g. loss of vacuum, loss of power, etc.) interferes with operation.  You don't want a power hiccup to trigger a mass casualty incident, and IIRC in order to achieve the traffic density Musk was pushing for the CA system there would be a very real risk of this (since at those speeds you need a certain amount of slowing distance or the G-forces you'd expose pax to in an "emergency stop" scenario start causing real problems themselves).


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#9 Green Maned Lion

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 05:40 PM

Such old 1870's technology.
 
To GML's point, a 500 meter test track is completely worthless.  They need at least a five mile circuit with intermediate stops, curves, elevation changes, etc.
 
That being said, the vacuum can be segmented with bulkheads and multiple suction points.  But my understanding is that this won't really be vacuum powered.  It's supposed to be maglev, but with a vacuum to reduce friction.


It's not the vacuum power; it's the strength of material needed to maintain vacuum without causing implosion. Think the opposite of a Champagne bottle. That's not impossible, far from it. But possibly unaffordable.

And dude, the Tesla was not an incremental development. Each tech in it was, but the break through was actually designing an electric car, rather than adapting one. Even the GM EV-1 was an adapted Saturn platform. The unique platform is the breakthrough.
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#10 XHRTSP

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 06:11 AM

And dude, the Tesla was not an incremental development. Each tech in it was, but the break through was actually designing an electric car, rather than adapting one. Even the GM EV-1 was an adapted Saturn platform. The unique platform is the breakthrough.

 

Not sure which dude you're responding to, but no that's not correct.  Range has, is and will be the challenge of electric cars, and that is most directly related to the battery's energy density, discharge and recharge capabilities.  Building a new chassis or modifying an existing one will make not a lick of difference.  Tesla is at it's heart a battery company that builds cars, not the other way around.



#11 Green Maned Lion

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 02:18 PM

You are absolutely wrong. What the Tesla Model S does to make electric cars more practical is use the battery as a structural part of the chassis, only doable when you design the car around it. By designing the car and electriness together, they allowed a much larger physical battery to go into the car, without interfering with usable space- this is why it has 5+2 seating in a SWB S-class footprint and a "frunk" while the GM EV-1 was the physical footprint of a 5-Passenger Saturn, almost no cargo space, and cramped seating for two.

The EV-1 was a science project put into production. The Tesla was designed as a great car with an electric power train. Frankly (Sorry, Nate) a carphobe like Neroden owning such a piece of machinery is a waste.

Remember: Henry Ford innovated nothing about the car. Elon Musk did not invent the electric car. They both made a concept mass market viable, through all kinds of break throughs.
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#12 VentureForth

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 01:08 PM

Good analogy, GML. It's like the difference between the Prius and the Camry. The Toyota Prius (arguably the ugliest new car ever) was designed around the hybrid system and is now, by far, the most popular hybrid vehicle on the market. On the other hand, the Toyota Camry Hybrid installed batteries into an existing frame and the result was a Camry with no baggage space. Same with the Chevrolet Tahoe Hybrid. I have one of those. Wonderful, comfortable car with no room whatsoever - not even for a spare tire. Comes with a can of fix-a-flat.

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#13 Bob Dylan

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 02:11 PM

Have to say that the Pontiac Aztek and some of Nissan's Ugly ducklings might beat out the Very Popular Prius when it comes to looks. ( I live in Austin, the Prius,Honda,Tesla and Electric/Hybrid Capitol of America)
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#14 XHRTSP

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 06:34 PM

You are absolutely wrong. What the Tesla Model S does to make electric cars more practical is use the battery as a structural part of the chassis, only doable when you design the car around it. By designing the car and electriness together, they allowed a much larger physical battery to go into the car, without interfering with usable space- this is why it has 5+2 seating in a SWB S-class footprint and a "frunk" while the GM EV-1 was the physical footprint of a 5-Passenger Saturn, almost no cargo space, and cramped seating for twp.

In a way I agree with what you're saying, Tesla gets points for going all in and building an all around kick ass car. I don't dispute that. But that is insignificant to the importance of slow incremental improvements in battery technology over the decades, and a far easier engineering challenge.

#15 Green Maned Lion

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Posted 11 April 2017 - 07:12 AM

Actually, rapid battery improvement made the Tesla viable. A much more profitable and battery reliant industry than cars needed incredible batteries, and poured the billions needed to develop them that automakers could never have afforded to spend- that being Samsung and Apple trying to figure out ways to get all day use out of palm-sized supercomputers/digital photo studios/video game player/navigational devices- oh, and I left out phone.
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#16 MARC Rider

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Posted 13 April 2017 - 05:42 PM


That being said, I once felt that way about electric cars and the same man who proposed this single handedly proved me wrong.

 
Electric cars have existed for decades now.  It was just a matter of enough small incremental battery improvements adding up to make them competitive with internal combustions for most consumer's use.  This hyperloop is a completely new ballgame and I find it ludicrous that these lines are being considered as a proof of concept.  How about a five mile track out in the desert first and make sure this actually works at scale.

They had practical electric cars 100 years ago.

#17 Green Maned Lion

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Posted 14 April 2017 - 10:14 AM

Practical if you don't like traveling very far... which was practical then. I drive 35k miles a year- those vehicles would not qualify as practical.
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#18 jis

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Posted 14 April 2017 - 01:24 PM

Speaking of Dade officials, a favorite technique used by Florida officials to kick cans down the road is to promise the impossible at some unspecified future date, specially things they have no control over and hold off doing things that can be done today, and that they have control over. This IMHO falls in that category. Fortunately Government droids are not involved in Brightline (except in some cases in trying to block it).

 

These same Dade officials cannot get their act together to expand the Miami Metro system and actually figure out how to fund the Miami Beach LRT, both of which are entirely within  their control. So of course they have to talk about Hyperloop to Orlando over which they have zero control.


Edited by jis, 14 April 2017 - 01:25 PM.


#19 MARC Rider

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 01:14 PM

Practical if you don't like traveling very far... which was practical then. I drive 35k miles a year- those vehicles would not qualify as practical.

 

Read this book:

 

https://www.amazon.c...y/dp/0813528097

 

His point is that the reason the internal combustion engine prevailed over electric cars in the early 1900s was due to cultural forces, not the inherent superiority of the particular technology.  (This should be a truism to all of us who do our computing on Windows platforms.)

 

In 1900, most Americans didn't drive 35k miles a year.  They had no need to drive 35k miles per year.  American cities and towns were walkable and good public transportation was available.  The cities and towns were linked by an extensive railway system.  The main advantage of motorized road transport was its potential to displace horse-drawn transport, thus eliminating manure pollution in cities and towns.  In that context, electric vehicles with short ranges would work perfectly well.  The actual deployment included taxis and delivery vehicles, which all returned to base on a regular basis, and thus could get charged or a battery swap fairly easily.  One could even imagine (though I don't think it ever came to pass) a Zip-Car like service, where the general public could subscribe and have electric city cars available for short term rentals, which might e useful if they were visiting at odd hors in remote neighborhoods with few taxis or they were going to the store to pick up something too gig to carry home on the streetcar, or they just wanted to tool around for the afternoon.  The only people who needed the range of the internal combustion engine were farmers, who did need to drive long distances and rich enthusiasts who enjoyed touring the countryside.  (I suppose there were then, as there are now, people who have a psychological need to project power via the use of a noisy engine; read about the fake engine noise they program into today's quieter cars.)

 

Now, one curious cultural pattern among Americans is that even is they are urban proletariat or professionals, etc., they have a self image of bing farmers, pioneers, or lords of the manor.  This is the cultural context that caused them to all desire the internal combustion car that was a better fit for farmers than for an urban apartment dwelling New Yorker (or Chcagoan, or whatever city they lived in).  Once the public started buying the cars, the real estate developers were only too happy to sell them suburbia and a way of life where, yes, the additional range of an internal combustion car was a distinct advantage.  The result is our current situation where nearly everyone, if they live outside a few neighborhood in New York, Boston. Phialdelpha, Washington, Chicago, or San Fransisco, needs to have a car for daily mobility needs, and in most cases, needs the extended range provided by an internal combustion engine.  Mr. Musk's contribution is that his team developed an electric car that could compete on the basis of range with internal combustions cars.  But had our culture been different, such competition wouldn't have been necessary, and we'd have perfectly good mobility with circa 1900 electric cars as part of a balanced transportation system in cities that are configured completely differently than they are today.



#20 jis

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 01:46 PM

Actually early suburbia was developed using rail, way before cars came into vogue. Look at the history of development of the New York Subway system for example. They were developed to connect what then was suburbia to the urban core. Same with LIRR. IC engine cars came in to give an additional sense of freedom of being able to go wherever - that is wherever there is a road or motorable tract. hence the positive feedback between the two in the creation of many roads and development of suburbia that became incompatible with transit.

 

BTW, this is not just an American phenomenon now. This sort of thing is pretty much what anyone with enough money strives for almost everywhere in the world, even if they have the best public transport system.






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