WV Statehouse Votes on Daily Cardinal

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Interesting and encouraging news; I wonder what arguments were used to permit such a positive vote.

Ohio's previous Governor was unable to get our General Assembly to adopt a Cleveland-Columbus-Cincinnati rail link that would have benefited other communities along the route. Our current Governor has no interest in such a plan.

Such arguments that led to the passage of such a Bill might be of use to us Ohioans in the future.
 
This is an important step, but it does not appropriate any money. It just sets up the accounts to do so. So that partially explains the landslide vote.
 
This is an important step, but it does not appropriate any money. It just sets up the accounts to do so. So that partially explains the landslide vote.

One small step at a time. Congress often passes Bills that have no appropriations behind them. Let us hope that the State Senators of West Virginia will appreciate what their House colleagues have done and that they will also approve. Then, the appropriation legislation can begin.
 
http://www.wvgazettemail.com/article/20170322/GZ01/170329872

The vote passed 95 to 5 ... The bill ... would allow West Virginia to create a revenue account to fund the train and infrastructure [upgrades] to the CSX owned track.
Liked the item allowing the State Tourism Director to enter into compacts with other states to help establish funding for any upgrades needed to go daily. Of course I can see that no money is being appropriated. But it does seem like somebody is trying to get ready for decisions coming soon.

My hunch is that Virginia will be willing to do more than its share -- if the other states will put a little in the pot to avoid the political heat of Virginia funding construction (and then operations) outside of the state.

A multi-state compact will help obscure any extra funding from Virginia. For operations, they may not need any subsidies. Neroden is sure that a daily Cardinal would at least break even on operations. The PRIIA study back in 2009 or so concluded that a daily train would lose only $2 million a year more than the 3-day-a-week train does now.

By this time next year, we should see how the new Roanoker is performing, and then a second train coming to the Norfolk line. At that point Virginia will know if it can handle any operating loss on a daily Cardinal.

Meanwhile, new Viewliners could appear at last, helping to equip the third consist needed for daily operation. A few cars freed up when Nippon Sharyo delivers the Midwestern bi-levels should supply the rest of the cars. (Uh, oh. Guess I'm making this into another fantasy thread. :( )

CSX is now under new management and faced with excess capacity with coal trains going away. In my dreams CSX will want Amtrak's payments for another 4 round trips for the Cardinal each week. Then going daily will end up as no big thing.
 
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http://www.wvgazettemail.com/article/20170322/GZ01/170329872

The vote passed 95 to 5 with Delegate's Folk, Howel, McGreehen, Paynter, and Wilson voting against it.

The bill is now being passed onto the West Virginia Senate. Should it pass it would allow West Virginia to create a revenue account to find the train and infrastructure updates to the CSX owned track.
!!!! Great news. Congratulations to anyone who has been working on this. What are the odds of passing in the Senate?

I'm pretty sure Virginia will kick in (it's cheap and effectively gets them extra service on a very popular line), and I *believe* it doesn't even require legislative action, since they already have a funding stream set up for Amtrak Virginia. Indiana's already funding 4 days a week with the Hoosier State. Any hope of contributions from Ohio or Kentucky?
 
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For operations, they may not need any subsidies. Neroden is sure that a daily Cardinal would at least break even on operations.
Yes, I'm really quite sure of that at this point, barring something funny like CSX charging massively increased track access fees. Using the rule of thumb of 1.5x variable costs (3 consists instead of 2) and 7/3 revenue (7 days instead of 3), it should be profitable before overhead. We know there's unfulfilled demand for sleeper space, and adding an second sleeping car (or even a half-sleeping-car) would improve that result even more.
The PRIIA study back in 2009 or so concluded that a daily train would lose only $2 million a year more than the 3-day-a-week train does now.
And since then (it's been 8 years!), both ticket yields and ridership have gone up significantly, which is why it would now make more money than the 3-a-week train does now.

CSX is now under new management and faced with excess capacity with coal trains going away. In my dreams CSX will want Amtrak's payments for another 4 round trips for the Cardinal each week. Then going daily will end up as no big thing.
I hope so!
That said, with coal going away, the cost of keeping the track in condition for passenger traffic is going to fall on the states. So that will cost real money.
 
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I would say the odds of it passing the senate are fairly high. With a 95-5 pass rate in the house I've seen stuff with 51-49 pass rate in the SC General Assembly pass the upper chamber. That's comparing apples to oranges however. What I find interesting is one of the five naysayers is from part of the state the Cardinal services.

The bill appears to have some strong economic influence from the tourism industry of West Virginia which should help it pass the senate as well. With the coal mines shutting down the state of West Virginia is arguably in greater trouble then CSX and the coal train. So I could see where working on a daily Cardinal to facilitate tourism and business travel would greatly aid them. Especially in diversifying the state's economy.
 
Unless it is cut back to a Washington DC turn, Amtrak has been on record at times, claiming that it will require 4 consists to operate a reliable daily service, given the relatively short turning time in New York. Three consists will just get us 5 days. Just something to keep in mind. Also, it will be remarkably wasteful deployment of equipment since a consist will sit idle in New York more than 24 hours regularly. Maybe it could be used to operate something else (a six hours out and six hours back service to somewhere else, with enhanced service, to put it to good use on the day it sits idle in New York.

The NARP folks working on the daily Cardinal project do not want to do that cutback at the present time. They seem to be quite unconcerned with the wasteful equipment deployment.So

bottom line is there are a few kinks to work out yet, and I don't think people have taken full account of the equipment cost or availability.

But I do support finding a good compromise to operate the train daily and efficiently.
 
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Its always positive news to see state support for Amtrak daily Cardinal service. It will be helpful to the Amtrak system and I am all for it. However, I don't see it happening any time soon.. Daily service will require adding an additional full train consist to the route. The question must be asked; where will the coach, sleeper and diner equipment come from? At the rate CAF is producing rolling stock it might be 2050 before we see new equipment. The route should stay in good shape as coal will be on the upswing.
 
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Unless it is cut back to a Washington DC turn, Amtrak has been on record at times, claiming that it will require 4 consists to operate a reliable daily service, given the relatively short turning time in New York.
The initial PRIIA said 3 sets were necessary and if you increase equipment costs by 50% and double ridership it's worth it. Now if you're going to require 4 sets all their financial calculations change. Then you might as well bring back the Broadway which will only require 3 sets (and run a good 6-7 fewer hours per run, saving fuel and labor costs). I can live with the Cardinal with less equipment required or even the same. For it to require more is ridiculous. One less set means one less spare set for the other single level trains. What if we have another equipment shortage?
 
The easiest way to run a reliable daily service with three sets is to cut back the eastern terminus of the service to Washington DC and let onward people use 65/66/67, if they want to risk a bit of a chance of missing connection at Washington DC eastbound. Not the worst place to miss a connection one might add.

While I personally love the idea of restoring a New York - Chicago train via Philly, PGH, if no one except a few in Philadelphia is willing to stand up and advocate for it, I don;t see it happening. It has been singularly difficult to get the NARP West PA contingent for example, or the Ohio contingent, to take on that battle, even for the through cars from the Pennsy to the Cap. So I doubt it will happen anytime soon. I know that the NJ and NY folks don;t care enough to even talk about it, except a few for him it is a matter of personal; passion
 
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I support the concept of a 7 day a week Cardinal as an Ohioan. But, unless there is a drastic change in the political climate in Ohio, don't count on any money coming from the Treasurer of State for such a service.
 
I support the concept of a 7 day a week Cardinal as an Ohioan. But, unless there is a drastic change in the political climate in Ohio, don't count on any money coming from the Treasurer of State for such a service.
Ohio has no reason to support the Cardinal. It comes into Cincinnati during the graveyard shift in both directions. If they were going to spend money, they are better off partnering with Indiana to extend the Hoosier State to Cincinnati (and get a schedule that benefits both Cincinnati and Indiana). If the train originated from Cincinnati they don't have to worry about delays from the Cardinal (it's bad enough having to board around 1:30am but to be forced to get there at that time and then have to wait until 2-3am for the train really sucks).
 
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What about the Buckingham Branch Railroad in Virginia? Isn't that still viewed as another roadblock to service?

I had the opportunity to train watch from 9-5 on a Friday two weeks ago the Buckingham Branch line from a window at the UVA Hospital. Sadly the only traffic was the EB and WB Cardinals: no CSX coal trains or other trains. I can't find much on the BB in the Google news, but I can't think the lack of traffic is good for business, or supporting a daily Cardinal.
 
The Greenbrier Resort would benefit greatly from a daily Cardinal. Does anyone know what their stance is on support for daily service?
 
What about the Buckingham Branch Railroad in Virginia? Isn't that still viewed as another roadblock to service?

I had the opportunity to train watch from 9-5 on a Friday two weeks ago the Buckingham Branch line from a window at the UVA Hospital. Sadly the only traffic was the EB and WB Cardinals: no CSX coal trains or other trains. I can't find much on the BB in the Google news, but I can't think the lack of traffic is good for business, or supporting a daily Cardinal.
Buckingham Branch isn't going to be an issue anymore actually. A daily cardinal might also help fix the issues they currently have as at least they can plan for it better. The actual issue is CSX which wants actively wants to downgrade the cardinals route to keep the tri weekly version. So the money you spend to make to keep the route might as well go daily.

Actually I'm all in favor of extending the Hoosier to Cincinnati and leaving at seven AM and once the cardinal goes daily you might see that being a possibility. The Hoosier's job is to provide daily service from Indy to Chicago. So if the cardinal goes daily either it would get cut or moved into a later time slot. A later time slot one could easily have it leave Cincinnati at 9 giving a 1215 departure from Indy.

And that above scenario is how you can convince cincinattians to help increase the cardinal's service.
 
I support the concept of a 7 day a week Cardinal as an Ohioan. But, unless there is a drastic change in the political climate in Ohio, don't count on any money coming from the Treasurer of State for such a service.
Ohio has no reason to support the Cardinal. It comes into Cincinnati during the graveyard shift in both directions. If they were going to spend money, they are better off partnering with Indiana to extend the Hoosier State to Cincinnati (and get a schedule that benefits both Cincinnati and Indiana). If the train originated from Cincinnati they don't have to worry about delays from the Cardinal (it's bad enough having to board around 1:30am but to be forced to get there at that time and then have to wait until 2-3am for the train really sucks).
Much to agree with in your post, but there is an "Ohio" benefit of which you are not aware, I think. The Cardinal travels through Oxford, Ohio, the home of Miami University. Miami enrolls many students that are not Ohioans and, I am told, reside in the Mid-West, i.e. Illinois, Indiana, etc. Efforts have been made and are being made (as I understand) to establish a station stop in Oxford to accommodate these potential Amtrak guests. Why not make Oxford a "flag stop"? Surely, some times of the year would yield more patronage of the Cardinal than others from Oxford. It just seems to me to be an opportunity that is missed by Amtrak.
 
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Much to agree with in your post, but there is an "Ohio" benefit of which you are not aware, I think. The Cardinal travels through Oxford, Ohio, the home of Miami University. Miami enrolls many students that are not Ohioans and, I am told, reside in the Mid-West, i.e. Illinois, Indiana, etc. Efforts have been made and are being made (as I understand) to establish a station stop in Oxford to accommodate these potential Amtrak guests. Why not make Oxford a "flag stop"? Surely, some times of the year would yield more patronage of the Cardinal than others from Oxford. It just seems to me to be an opportunity that is missed by Amtrak.
Also would be during the graveyard shift in Oxford. Then again maybe college kids wouldn't mind being awake at 3am.
 
Much to agree with in your post, but there is an "Ohio" benefit of which you are not aware, I think. The Cardinal travels through Oxford, Ohio, the home of Miami University. Miami enrolls many students that are not Ohioans and, I am told, reside in the Mid-West, i.e. Illinois, Indiana, etc. Efforts have been made and are being made (as I understand) to establish a station stop in Oxford to accommodate these potential Amtrak guests. Why not make Oxford a "flag stop"? Surely, some times of the year would yield more patronage of the Cardinal than others from Oxford. It just seems to me to be an opportunity that is missed by Amtrak.
Also would be during the graveyard shift in Oxford. Then again maybe college kids wouldn't mind being awake at 3am.
I think you are 100% correct. Convenience and money saved are the prime objectives, I think.
 
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Unless it is cut back to a Washington DC turn, Amtrak has been on record at times, claiming that it will require 4 consists to operate a reliable daily service, given the relatively short turning time in New York. Three consists will just get us 5 days. Just something to keep in mind. Also, it will be remarkably wasteful deployment of equipment since a consist will sit idle in New York more than 24 hours regularly. Maybe it could be used to operate something else (a six hours out and six hours back service to somewhere else, with enhanced service, to put it to good use on the day it sits idle in New York.

The NARP folks working on the daily Cardinal project do not want to do that cutback at the present time. They seem to be quite unconcerned with the wasteful equipment deployment.So

bottom line is there are a few kinks to work out yet, and I don't think people have taken full account of the equipment cost or availability.

But I do support finding a good compromise to operate the train daily and efficiently.
Amtrak has been on record at times, that it will require 4 consists to operate a reliable daily service, given the relatively short turning time in New York. Three consists will just get us 5 days. ...

But I do support finding a good compromise to operate the train daily and efficiently.
I'd try to shorten the run time to lengthen the turn time.

A study for the Indiana Dept of Highways proposed running at one or better two Hoosier State corridor trains, supplementing a daily Cardinal. Their examination of the trackage within the state led them to conclude that for less than $250 million in assorted upgrades, the in-state run time could be cut by 29 minutes. The same study indicated that further time savings could come from another C.R.E.A.T.E. project, slicing time off the Illinois segment of the run. The study did not offer a figure for how much time could be wrung out of the Illinois trackage; I'll say 11 minutes for purpose of discussion. So by upgrading the Hoosier State corridor, we could get 40 minutes out of each run, (or a total of 1 hr 20 min per round trip).

In the other direction, Virginia has spent (and budgeted still more?) to upgrade the Buckingham Branch thru Charlottesville with passing sidings etc to handle a daily train. And it will probably also slice minutes from the run time. Let's say another 10 minutes saved each way, or 20 minutes round trip (for a total of 1 hr 40 min per round trip).

Meanwhile Virginia and D.C. have plans to fix the Potomac Long Bridge, and I'll venture another 5 minutes each way there. And another 5 minutes from the bridge to the turn onto the Breckenridge Branch. That part done mostly to speed up the Lynchburger and the Roanoker. So together 10 minutes each way, 20 minutes per round trip (for a total of 2 hrs per round trip).

Let's expect that CSX will want some upgrades to its rails thru West Virginia and Kentucky. We could shave off 5 minutes each way, 10 minutes per round trip (for a total of 2 hrs 10 min per round trip).

Upgrading the segment Cincinnati-Indianapolis to 110 mph top speed could easily cut an hour or two each way. The upgrades on the NEC (the BWI station, the Baltimore Tunnel, the new Susquehanna Bridge, new catenary, signals, curve straightening etc. taken altogether could allow the Acela II/Avelia a 20 minute faster run time NY-D.C., with the Regionals and LD trains saving about 15 minutes. That could mean another half an hour to turn the train in NYC.

I'm not gonna include either a 110-mph corridor Cincy-Indy or any saved time from the NEC in my running total, tho, because they are both a few years and some Billions in the future. Still, without counting them, we're up to potentially more than 2 hours faster run times.

Again, for purposes of argument, let's use 60 minutes of that time to arrive Penn Station at 8:58 p.m., effectively 9 p.m. instead of at 10 p.m. on the current schedule. Now let's use another 60 minutes of our saved time to leave Penn Station at 7:45 a.m. instead of 6:45 a.m. on the current schedule. More comfortable arrivals and departures in New York, and a shorter end-to-end run time.

Obviously the schedule would have to deal with commuter train rush hours. But it could be tweaked to make slightly better times in Indianapolis (the WB arrival is 11:50 p.m., while the EB arrival is 5:15 a.m.) or perhaps elsewhere. But no matter what, the Cincinnati times remain the worst. :(

My only question is whether adding 2 hours to the turn-around time in New York would be enuff to allow operating the Cardinal with only three sets of equipment.
 
I'd like a pony and a million dollars, but I think that has a better chance of happening than the money for 110 mph trackage in OH and IN dropping out of the sky...what's the point in making up pie in the sky scenarios? If you have to resort to that to justify doing something then your case isn't very good to start with IMO.
 
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A fourth train set can be assigned to a daily Cardinal for a tiny fraction of the costs of right-of-way improvements. That shouldn't be a deal breaker; We're not talking about that many cars.
 
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