Variable Consists

Shop deals on ebay
shop deals on amazon
Advertise with us
Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
John Bobinyec

John Bobinyec

Engineer
AU Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2009
Messages
2,024
Location
CYN
This is an offshoot of the October - November Performance Reports thread.

Don't airlines sometime vary which airplane is used on a particular run in order to more accurately meet the demand?

The Piedmont service varies the number of coaches for the two train pairs, 73-74 and 75-76, based on the demand for the day. They alter the consists the night before while the trains are being serviced.

With trains that only have reserved seats/accommodations, can't Amtrak drop out or even add a car as needed? I know they do that on a seasonal basis, but I'm thinking they could do it on a more short term basis.

jb
 
Airlines don't vary which airplane is used very often. One of the reasons is that they have to get the airplanes back to their starting points. I recall flying in a DC-10 with about 4 people in it, because it had had more people going the other way earlier in the day. This phenomenon does apply to Amtrak.

Amtrak does, in fact, add coaches at times of extremely high demand, when they've got them. I've seen a sold-out California Zephyr turn into a not-sold-out California Zephyr, due to the addition of an extra coach that day (and that coach gets added to some other day's train coming back).

It makes rather less sense to cut a coach from Amtrak's *already rather short consists* because late sales may mean adding it back again, entailing unnecessary paperwork and trouble for no good reason (particulary if the coach has already been grabbed for something else). This is probably why Amtrak only has "short consists" in the Winter when they have predictably lower ridership on many of the trains.

On top of that, some of the trains which probably should be shorter much of the time are corridor services which are already quite short; and the host railroads have axle count requirements to trigger their archaic grade crossing gates....

Empire Service west of Albany probably mostly doesn't need to be the full 7 cars, but I suspect there's one run per day which does or something like that, and it drives the equipment allocation schedule.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
neroden said:
Airlines don't vary which airplane is used very often. One of the reasons is that they have to get the airplanes back to their starting points. I recall flying in a DC-10 with about 4 people in it, because it had had more people going the other way earlier in the day. This phenomenon does apply to Amtrak.

Amtrak does, in fact, add coaches at times of extremely high demand, when they've got them. I've seen a sold-out California Zephyr turn into a not-sold-out California Zephyr, due to the addition of an extra coach that day (and that coach gets added to some other day's train coming back).

It makes rather less sense to cut a coach from Amtrak's *already rather short consists* because late sales may mean adding it back again, entailing unnecessary paperwork and trouble for no good reason (particulary if the coach has already been grabbed for something else). This is probably why Amtrak only has "short consists" in the Winter when they have predictably lower ridership on many of the trains.

On top of that, some of the trains which probably should be shorter much of the time are corridor services which are already quite short; and the host railroads have axle count requirements to trigger their archaic grade crossing gates....

Empire Service west of Albany probably mostly doesn't need to be the full 7 cars, but I suspect there's one run per day which does or something like that, and it drives the equipment allocation schedule.
Click to expand...
I beg to differ about airlines not changing aircraft size to meet demand, as this happens quite frequently in the Montana market, where almost every flight begins with a CRJ 200 , and as the flight fills up, the aircraft is changed to a CRJ 700 or 900, and eventually can be upgraded to a 737-700, or even a -800 or -900!
 
The CRJ would be a contract aircraft operated by a regional carrier, the 737 would be a mainline aircraft operated by the parent carrier. They require different crews, and eventually have to cycle back to their original assigned maintenance points. it would be extremely difficult to manage, and as such , might not be as profitable as it seems. As a general rule, plane swaps for size not involving crews with a common type rating, would be very unusual.. Adjustments around holiday peaks or special events are usually made well in advance, there is a great deal of detail involved.
 
PVD said:
The CRJ would be a contract aircraft operated by a regional carrier, the 737 would be a mainline aircraft operated by the parent carrier. They require different crews, and eventually have to cycle back to their original assigned maintenance points. it would be extremely difficult to manage, and as such , might not be as profitable as it seems. As a general rule, plane swaps for size not involving crews with a common type rating, would be very unusual.. Adjustments around holiday peaks or special events are usually made well in advance, there is a great deal of detail involved.
Click to expand...
Well, in the Montana market, it is very rare to have an aircraft not turn around and go back to the exact same city that it came in from, so the maintenance base issue is a nonissue here.
 
What you are saying about the city pairs is true, but what generally happens at some point in the weekly schedule is the planes flip with another one of the same type going somewhere else so the plane eventually gets where it needs to be. That is one of the complicating factors
 
Airlines do change flight plans "seasonally". In Nashville, some airlines add flights to distant cities such as Seattle on a seasonal base. I know Delta does this and Southwest changes the number of flight between certain city pairs seasonally.
 
Some things to consider:

1. Costs of switching, and moving into and out of storage vs simply having an empty car on the train. (plus the above mentioned axle counts).

2. Availability of additional coaches/sleepers. Except for single level coaches there is not much if any extra... even for "protection" cars.

3. Availability of crew. When freight railroads ran passengers the extra crews came from the general pool. An employment model which pads for random peak periods will tend to have repetitious furloughs of crew will leading to encourage the "good" ones to stay at their alternate employment and the "sludge" to stay with Amtrak.

4. Availability of storage at key terminals. And switchers.

5. Then there is the practice of a "second section"... no extra locomotives, no extra cars, no extra crew, etc (except possibly on the NE corridor)
 
As to Amtrak, similar issues may apply. At what point do I make a decision to add a car, and when I do, how do I meet the additional crew requirements (if any). also, if it becomes common practice to add capacity to heavily booked trains, it may diminish travelers booking at higher fares, since they might gamble on more seats being added. Good for us passengers in the near term, not always a sound business decision. This of course assumes that the cars are available, and the facilities to add/drop and store them, as well as the facility to return them to where they are based exist where this might be valuable. If I have to add a switching crew somewhere full time, the added cost might be higher than what I leave on the table by selling out one or two trains.
 
CCC1007 said:
I beg to differ about airlines not changing aircraft size to meet demand, as this happens quite frequently in the Montana market, where almost every flight begins with a CRJ 200 , and as the flight fills up, the aircraft is changed to a CRJ 700 or 900, and eventually can be upgraded to a 737-700, or even a -800 or -900!
Click to expand...
[Citation needed]
 
ainamkartma said:
CCC1007 said:
I beg to differ about airlines not changing aircraft size to meet demand, as this happens quite frequently in the Montana market, where almost every flight begins with a CRJ 200 , and as the flight fills up, the aircraft is changed to a CRJ 700 or 900, and eventually can be upgraded to a 737-700, or even a -800 or -900!
Click to expand...
[Citation needed]
Click to expand...
My citation is personal experience, including being put on a larger aircraft than expected for a full flight billings to Denver.
 
Flying on a Monday.... you'll usually see more empty seats on certain airlines, that have contracts with the USPS.

Mail goes first.... then you passengers...
 
The best example of not dropping cars is Atlanta. There it is all about the station platform being between the 2 Main Tracks. Plus lack of a switcher and crew and layout of siding not being able to quickly drop and add cars.
 
Valid observation. The cost of stationing a switcher and a crew for 1 train a day would never pay for itself, even if there was a place to store the car(s). I thought ATL was set up platforms along the mains, not between. I seem to remember that from October when I was there, but I could be mistaken. That doesn't change anything about add/drop feasibility.
 
At one time Amtrak did drop and add cars in Atlanta. Switching was expensive and a pain in the neck, and the cars had to be wye'd and serviced during the day (no good place to do that).
 
Most European railroads run domestic trains with fixed consists (not counting the international EC trains, which switch cars in and out constantly). Granted they have the luxury of changing frequencies if needed.
 
John Bobinyec said:
This is an offshoot of the October - November Performance Reports thread.

Don't airlines sometime vary which airplane is used on a particular run in order to more accurately meet the demand?

The Piedmont service varies the number of coaches for the two train pairs, 73-74 and 75-76, based on the demand for the day. They alter the consists the night before while the trains are being serviced.

With trains that only have reserved seats/accommodations, can't Amtrak drop out or even add a car as needed? I know they do that on a seasonal basis, but I'm thinking they could do it on a more short term basis.

jb
Click to expand...

Who says they don't? There are places on the system that add/drop cars based upon needs. There are also places that don't have the facilities, equipment or crews to perform these functions on a routine basis. Additionally, there are trains that have specific consists due to the contractual requirements associated with the service. This is particularly true with state supported services.

There is a train roaming the NEC today with 3 AMIIs and a split club and another train with a cab car as the head coach. They were needed for the demand.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Latest posts

Back
Top