Surge pricing on the Hiawatha

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rtabern

rtabern

Conductor
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
1,606
Location
Northwest Wisconsin
In Scott Walkers latest attempt to kill trains... Surge pricing on the Hiawatha started today. $25 for offpeak trains but $27 for peak. Peak is the first two AM trains out of MKE and the 3:15 and 5:08 out of Chicago on weekdays.

The Hiawatha is now upto $108 roundtrip for two people. I have stopped riding a lot and will just drive downtown or go to GLN and hop the Metra. Sad to say.

This is all Wisconsin DOT and not Amtrak who did this.
 
rtabern said:
In Scott Walkers latest attempt to kill trains... Surge pricing on the Hiawatha started today. $25 for offpeak trains but $27 for peak. Peak is the first two AM trains out of MKE and the 3:15 and 5:08 out of Chicago on weekdays.

The Hiawatha is now upto $108 roundtrip for two people. I have stopped riding a lot and will just drive downtown or go to GLN and hop the Metra. Sad to say.

This is all Wisconsin DOT and not Amtrak who did this.
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One of the ideas being floated for the Surfliner on the extremely busy 800 series train. I don't think it went anywhere.
 
rtabern said:
In Scott Walkers latest attempt to kill trains... Surge pricing on the Hiawatha started today. $25 for offpeak trains but $27 for peak. Peak is the first two AM trains out of MKE and the 3:15 and 5:08 out of Chicago on weekdays.

The Hiawatha is now upto $108 roundtrip for two people. I have stopped riding a lot and will just drive downtown or go to GLN and hop the Metra. Sad to say.

This is all Wisconsin DOT and not Amtrak who did this.
Click to expand...
Pennsylvania uses peak and off-peak pricing for the Keystones. In Pennsylvania's case, the peak fares apply most of the day on Fridays and Sundays.

The Hiawatha's are still a bargain compared to Amtrak's own NEC service. Take a look at peak hour prices for a trips over a similar distance. How's $55 each way, per person for Philadelphia to Newark NJ sound? Breathtaking.
 
Surge pricing with the Hiawatha's schedule does not make sense IMO. If you have frequent services in the Northeast I could see it... not with the Hiawatha. I mean its 4pm and you want to get home to WI. Who in their right mind is going to skip the 5:08pm departure and sit around Union Station for three more hours to take the next train at 8:05pm to save $2. (I say do it and get deep dish pizza but still...)
 
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PRR 60 said:
rtabern said:
In Scott Walkers latest attempt to kill trains... Surge pricing on the Hiawatha started today. $25 for offpeak trains but $27 for peak. Peak is the first two AM trains out of MKE and the 3:15 and 5:08 out of Chicago on weekdays.

The Hiawatha is now upto $108 roundtrip for two people. I have stopped riding a lot and will just drive downtown or go to GLN and hop the Metra. Sad to say.

This is all Wisconsin DOT and not Amtrak who did this.
Click to expand...
Pennsylvania uses peak and off-peak pricing for the Keystones. In Pennsylvania's case, the peak fares apply most of the day on Fridays and Sundays.

The Hiawatha's are still a bargain compared to Amtrak's own NEC service. Take a look at peak hour prices for a trips over a similar distance. How's $55 each way, per person for Philadelphia to Newark NJ sound? Breathtaking.
Click to expand...
While the Midwest routes are as a whole remarkably cheap compared to the Northeast, the Hiawatha might be the most overpriced regional route in the Midwest. Even at normal prices, it is $25 for about 90 miles. A trip to New Buffalo, MI on the Wolverine is under half that. The Lincoln Service is only $27 for the entire route, which is three times as long as the Hiawatha. I really wish Metra would expand to Milwaukee; it would be nice to only spend $8 for a weekend day trip to Milwaukee instead of $50.
 
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Strictly speaking peak/off peak static price difference is not surge pricing. Surge pricing is usually used when the price is dynamically adjusted based on actual ticket sales. Many commuter rail systems have had static peak/off peak pricing for a long long time. Some like NJ Transit got rid of it by raising all fares to the peak level. LIRR and Metro North continue to have it. The peak pricing in case of these are on specific trains in a specific direction on specific days of the week as marked in the timetable.

brianpmcdonnell17 said:
While the Midwest routes are as a whole remarkably cheap compared to the Northeast, the Hiawatha might be the most overpriced regional route in the Midwest. Even at normal prices, it is $25 for about 90 miles. A trip to New Buffalo, MI on the Wolverine is under half that. The Lincoln Service is only $27 for the entire route, which is three times as long as the Wolverine. I really wish Metra would expand to Milwaukee; it would be nice to only spend $8 for a weekend day trip to Milwaukee instead of $50.
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Be careful what you wish for. It is entirely possible that if Scott Walker can find a more cost effective (read less money from WI) way of running Metra to Milwaukee and in exchange get rid of the Hiawatha Service, I am sure he will go for it.
 
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Complaining about a 2 dollar difference in fare? If you can't afford 27 you can't afford 25. Just go get on the dog and get what you pay for. No legroom and sitting in traffic. Get a life.
 
jis said:
Strictly speaking calling peak/off peak static price difference is not surge pricing. Surge pricing is usually used when the price is dynamically adjusted based on actual ticket sales. Many commuter rail systems have had static peak/off peak pricing for a long long time. Some like NJ Transit got rid of it by raising all fares to the peak level. LIRR and Metro North continue to have it. The peak pricing in case of these are on specific trains in a specific direction on specific days of the week as marked in the timetable.

brianpmcdonnell17 said:
While the Midwest routes are as a whole remarkably cheap compared to the Northeast, the Hiawatha might be the most overpriced regional route in the Midwest. Even at normal prices, it is $25 for about 90 miles. A trip to New Buffalo, MI on the Wolverine is under half that. The Lincoln Service is only $27 for the entire route, which is three times as long as the Wolverine. I really wish Metra would expand to Milwaukee; it would be nice to only spend $8 for a weekend day trip to Milwaukee instead of $50.
Click to expand...
Be careful what you wish for. It is entirely possible that if Scott Walker can find a more cost effective (read less money from WI) way of running Metra to Milwaukee and in exchange get rid of the Hiawatha Service, I am sure he will go for it.
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True, but I think Metra to Milwaukee would be preferable to the Hiawatha provided that there are express trains. Obviously, the best case is that both operate but I think a high frequency commuter service is preferable to a regional Amtrak route. Also, there is no immediate plans for Metra expansion so by the time it happens Walker could be out of office (hopefully).
 
How much direct control does Walker have over that himself? I'm too lazy to find them right now, but there are quotes from him saying he supports the existing service (and improvements on it), just not the formerly proposed, now dead, higher-speed plans.

Hopefully he won't last much longer, it looks like infrastructure maintenance in Wisconsin is slipping and making Illinois look good these days.
 
I'm assuming this means that Peak Period tickets are good on any trains. I'll be curious how often there will be problems with people trying to use Off-Peak tickets on Peak trains - anyone know how this plays out with Keystones?

Over all, at this point I'm not particularly bothered by this - the main downside, as I see it, is not a $2 increase in fares, but the loss of flexibility.
 
rtabern said:
In Scott Walkers latest attempt to kill trains... Surge pricing on the Hiawatha started today. $25 for offpeak trains but $27 for peak. Peak is the first two AM trains out of MKE and the 3:15 and 5:08 out of Chicago on weekdays.
Click to expand...
With respect, if a $2 difference in fares represents an attempt to "kill" a train service, Mr. Walkers may as well just give up. Perhaps an argument can be made against the fare increase based on the principle of the matter, but it will hardly lead to the undoing of train service.

Now, if you raised fares to a level where they covered 100% of the fully-allocated costs to provide the service - a wholly unreasonable and unsustainable amount which would quickly drive off the passengers - then yes, it could be interpreted as an attempt to kill the trains. But not two dollars!
 
rtabern said:
Surge pricing with the Hiawatha's schedule does not make sense IMO. If you have frequent services in the Northeast I could see it... not with the Hiawatha. I mean its 4pm and you want to get home to WI. Who in their right mind is going to skip the 5:08pm departure and sit around Union Station for three more hours to take the next train at 8:05pm to save $2. (I say do it and get deep dish pizza but still...)
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Actually what you have described is a pretty good rationale for the new pricing system. As you said, who in their right mind is going to sit around 3 hours in order to save $2? No one. So why not separate those $2 from the willing customer? In this case, the proof is in the pudding. If ridership remains steady, you'll have a higher revenue stream at no additional operational costs. If ridership drops, well, back to the drawing board. I don't think a targeted $2 increase is going to drive that many customers away.

PRR 60 said:
Pennsylvania uses peak and off-peak pricing for the Keystones. In Pennsylvania's case, the peak fares apply most of the day on Fridays and Sundays.
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True, although a couple of years ago this was changed so that the peak fares apply all day on Fri/Sun. A bit disappointing if you were accustomed to using one of the early morning departures that previously didn't qualify, but overall it makes things simpler. I've not specifically seen someone try to use an off-peak ticket on a Fri/Sun, but I assume they could pay cash for the "upgrade" as Keystone conductors are quite used to making cash transactions due to the unreserved nature of the trains and the numerous un-staffed stations along the route.
 
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Eric S said:
I'm assuming this means that Peak Period tickets are good on any trains. I'll be curious how often there will be problems with people trying to use Off-Peak tickets on Peak trains - anyone know how this plays out with Keystones?

Over all, at this point I'm not particularly bothered by this - the main downside, as I see it, is not a $2 increase in fares, but the loss of flexibility.
Click to expand...
If someone gets on a peak period train with an off peaks ticket the difference is collected by the Conductor. If someone boards an off peak train using a peak ticket they don;t get any refund. It is that simple. No real loss in flexibility. Everyone that rides LIRR and Metro North knows how to deal with this sort of fare structure.

Frankly I see this as yet another much ado about very little.
 
By UK standards $27.00 dollars is cheap for a 90 mile journey for a peak train. For comparison Birmingham to Manchester is around £39.00 (even with a weak £ this is $50 give or take) peak. But then the same journey off peak is about £18.00 which is quite comparable so Id be very happy with a $2 surge price
 
ScouseAndy said:
By UK standards $27.00 dollars is cheap for a 90 mile journey for a peak train. For comparison Birmingham to Manchester is around £39.00 (even with a weak £ this is $50 give or take) peak. But then the same journey off peak is about £18.00 which is quite comparable so Id be very happy with a $2 surge price
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And there are three trains an hour, on average, at least from a quick google search...
 
ScouseAndy said:
By UK standards $27.00 dollars is cheap for a 90 mile journey for a peak train. For comparison Birmingham to Manchester is around £39.00 (even with a weak £ this is $50 give or take) peak. But then the same journey off peak is about £18.00 which is quite comparable so Id be very happy with a $2 surge price
Click to expand...
By UK standards almost any typical consumer service or product in the US is going to be cheaper by way of unweighted currency conversion. Even continental Europe is noticeably cheaper than the UK. It's easy to see why Europe costs more than the US, but I've never fully understood why the UK remains substantially more expensive than their continental brethren.
 
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jis said:
Eric S said:
I'm assuming this means that Peak Period tickets are good on any trains. I'll be curious how often there will be problems with people trying to use Off-Peak tickets on Peak trains - anyone know how this plays out with Keystones?

Over all, at this point I'm not particularly bothered by this - the main downside, as I see it, is not a $2 increase in fares, but the loss of flexibility.
Click to expand...
If someone gets on a peak period train with an off peaks ticket the difference is collected by the Conductor. If someone boards an off peak train using a peak ticket they don;t get any refund. It is that simple. No real loss in flexibility. Everyone that rides LIRR and Metro North knows how to deal with this sort of fare structure.

Frankly I see this as yet another much ado about very little.
Click to expand...
if it's that simple, just paying the extra $2 on board to the Conductor, then yes, I agree it's much ado about very little. (I wasn't sure how Amtrak handled such things.)
 
rtabern said:
In Scott Walkers latest attempt to kill trains... Surge pricing on the Hiawatha started today. $25 for offpeak trains but $27 for peak. Peak is the first two AM trains out of MKE and the 3:15 and 5:08 out of Chicago on weekdays.

The Hiawatha is now upto $108 roundtrip for two people. I have stopped riding a lot and will just drive downtown or go to GLN and hop the Metra. Sad to say.

This is all Wisconsin DOT and not Amtrak who did this.
Click to expand...
As you probably know Metra has a stop in Kenosha, WI (Union Pacific North line), but it makes a ton of stops and is not all that frequent since it is a stop north of Waukegan. Compared to Glenview, I think the Metra stops with more ample parking particularly on weekdays along I-94 would probably be either Lake Bluff, IL (Union Pacific North) or Lake Forest, IL (Milwaukee North line). Of course this assumes that you'd be cool with riding Illinois's somewhat slower Metra's service instead of the Amtrak.
 
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So glad i can come to this site and get away from hearing peoples political rants. Especially from folks that don't even live there.
 
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