Senators want to ensure TSA protects trains, buses and ports

http://thehill.com/policy/transportation/296351-senators-want-to-ensure-tsa-protects-trains-buses-and-ports

Thoughts on this? Likelihood of it passing? I would hate to have to bid Amtrak farewell in light of privacy/civil-liberties concerns but I'm prepared to do so if necessary. I won't be scoped, groped or questioned and have enjoyed being free of it on Amtrak thus far.

I can't help but feel like this will get shot down, though, given that TSA has been such an abject failure in tests and audits over recent years. A responsible Congress would, in theory, insist that they get their act together regarding airports before getting any more funding to expand anywhere else.

Wouldn't work!

At large stations (like NYP, PHL or WAS), it would just be hindering of the flow of both Amtrak and commuter passengers, since not the same track is used. At many smaller stations (like Westerly, RI or Ft Edward, NY), it would be impossible - as there is direct access to the platform and the stations are unstaffed.

There's more to it than just the stations. What about the right of way? Are they going to be prepared to post a TSA agent every 100 feet along the tracks, everywhere passenger trains run?

jb

I don't think the risks in the US at present justify extreme measures. However, I have traveled on routes elsewhere where such extreme measures have been used due to the presence of insurgency in the area that it passes through. Typical examples are on foot armed guards at frequent intervals and specially around critical infrastructures like bridges and tunnels. A pilot engine running a few minutes ahead of the passenger train to set off any track mounted explosives. Changing schedules of trains so they pass through the area only during daylight hours. Armed guards on trains in each car. You name it. And yet they kept all the important trains running. Only a few local trains were totally cancelled. The trick is to make it obvious that the insurgency is failing to have significant effect and one is willing to do whatever it takes to not be affected by such. And of course over a period of time political solutions were found to have the insurgents stand down or get killed or whatever removing the danger, and things returned to normal. This has happened on several routes in different parts of India in the last 60 years. You deal with the level of danger with appropriate measures.

I don't see it working even if it were to be passed. Look at how long the lines are at some airports for security already. Imagine how much worse it would be if their funding needed to cover boats, planes, trains, and buses. It would be an absolute disaster. If you want to put the equivalent of an air marshal on trains, boats, and buses, someone that could have the legal right to apprehend a suspect or stop a crime and detain someone until the vehicle makes its next stop and they can be offloaded then that would make more sense to me. But to have full airport style security at stations? Not with the funding they currently have, and certainly not without huge changes to passenger flow and station layout.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see something like this signed into law in the coming months.

As far as its effect, well, depends what it actually ends up entailing. Obviously trying to impose airport-style security measures on intercity trains and buses is completely impractical. Maybe on a segregated network but not on one that shares stations, rights-of-way, etc with other trains, vehicles, etc. And if we move beyond intercity trains and buses to include local/urban/suburban trains and buses, well, yeah...no can do.

But, if this recognizes the different characteristics of different modes of travel, and offers funding to improve security in manners that are appropriate for those modes, it may not be a horrible thing.

Maybe we need a "wall" along the right of way. Maybe Mexico will pay for it.....

Amtrak has been taking these security measures for years:

They purposely run their trains late and at random times so the terrorists won't know when or if the train will arrive.

The insure that only the right people get through by the use of gate dragons.

They don't tell you what's in their meals so the terrorists don't know if they are eating prohibited food.

The coach attendants don't clean the restrooms to scare off terrorists.

They don't assign seats or cars to the coach passengers until the last minute to inhibit terrorist planning.

They suddenly and without warning institute bustitutions so as to be sure that nobody knows where or when they will be.

They raise the number of points required for a trip so terrorists can't use them when they want.

They suddenly decide to unstaff a station so terrorists can't blow up the baggage car with checked luggage and the terrorists, unused to US rail, have no idea what to do at the station as they vainly search for someone to give cash to for ticket.

With terrorists moving toward softer targets such as crowds waiting for security, etc., reducing traffic flow is not a good idea IMO. I'll admit that a bomb going off in a CUS tunnel during rush hour would kill/maim a lot of people even without having people stand around but don't see stopping everybody to examine backpacks as a solution. A cheaper and more effective solution would be to configure traffic patterns for maximum flow.

Ah yes, because TSA has done such a bang-up job in the airports, let's give them more things to f@#% up royally.

TSA will have to change their name to MSA! (Millions Stand Around!)

There they go again! Of course it would be a clusterflub that would cost billions but hey, it's only our money!

But at least it would be a jobs program, we could hire millions of people go guard the rails, bridges, tunnels etc. instead of fixing them as is urgently needed!

Imagine Union Station in LAX, CHI, WAS and 30th Street, South Station,GCT and NYP during rush hour!Total chaos!

Didn't some politician just call for profiling like they do in Israel? Yeah, that's the ticket! Problem solved, it'll be Huge!

There is a simple solution to non-invasive onboard security. You have the names and info on all the passengers on the tickets when they purchase. Allow the travelers to be pre-screened by running them through the FBI data base. It takes only a few minutes and most will have no objection to this. In other words same requirement as for purchasing a firearm. . At the stations the bomb sniffing dogs are better than any machine but really now, how are you going to protect 100's of thousands of miles of track, bridges, tunnels and 100's of stations out in the remote locations?

Its really up to us, the passengers to be vigilant, aware and to keep our eyes open. If I must be lowered to the level of an animal as you are at an airport, just to ride a train, I'll be driving everywhere and BTW how does TSA plan to protect the highways? Can you imaging a car blast in the middle of the L.I Expressway or on the NJ Turnpike in the middle of rush hour? Terrorism can be anywhere and that's why its up to the civilian to take part in the protection process. If we are a government of by and for the people we all need to get to work.

Actually Amtrak does not have so called APIS info except for tickets that are for crossing the border. That is the database that is used by airlines for pre-screening. Would you really like Amtrak to collect all that additional information and attach it to each of your reservation?

The focus of surface facility protection has to be based on intelligence and interdiction before it gets so far as someone actually doing something at a station or on the tracks. It is a completely different and potentially less intrusive setup.

Though in places that are under real major immediate and present threat from things bigger than pressure cooker and pipe bombs, unlike the US, there are very crowded subway systems that have metal detector at each turnstile and it can be made to work if push comes to shove. But it all depends on the actual threat level.

Even if you could make it work, how do you week out false positives (where someone is not a threat but is labeled as one due to a mixup in the screening system?) Furthermore, what do you do if someone is identified as a threat? And what about those who buy cash just before departure or even buy onboard?

I think such a system would be more difficult and cause more issues than it'd help.

jebr said:

Even if you could make it work, how do you week out false positives (where someone is not a threat but is labeled as one due to a mixup in the screening system?) Furthermore, what do you do if someone is identified as a threat? And what about those who buy cash just before departure or even buy onboard?

I think such a system would be more difficult and cause more issues than it'd help.

Click to expand...

Apparently you are assuming some system and mentioning problems with it without telling us what system you have in your mind. Are you assuming security check at boarding point? I don;t think that is being proposed.

For pre-screening to work you will have to disallow boarding without a reservation completely, which implies that all tickets will have to be checked before boarding.

But as I said, it is not clear that the threat profile in the US has reached a level that would require such diligence yet.

I was responding to dlagura's idea of having a check to the FBI (or similar) database. I'm trying to figure out what exactly that would do to make it more secure, as that information would have to pair up with something or be paired with some restriction in order for it to be significantly worthwhile.

jebr said:

I was responding to dlagura's idea of having a check to the FBI (or similar) database. I'm trying to figure out what exactly that would do to make it more secure, as that information would have to pair up with something or be paired with some restriction in order for it to be significantly worthwhile.

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It would make people "feel better" because then the government would be "doing something." :angry2:

It can't happen here?

Everyone needs to go see Oliver Stone's New Movie "Snowden", read the Draconian Patriot Act and reread "1984!"

jebr said:

And what about those who buy cash just before departure or even buy onboard?

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Buying with cash to ride LD trains is already tagged for further investigation by ATF agents in many cases. This commonly occurs on the eastbound CZ when passengers pay with cash in California will often be checked out with drug-sniffing dogs at Reno.

jis said:

Actually Amtrak does not have so called APIS info except for tickets that are for crossing the border. That is the database that is used by airlines for pre-screening. Would you really like Amtrak to collect all that additional information and attach it to each of your reservation?

The focus of surface facility protection has to be based on intelligence and interdiction before it gets so far as someone actually doing something at a station or on the tracks. It is a completely different and potentially less intrusive setup.

Though in places that are under real major immediate and present threat from things bigger than pressure cooker and pipe bombs, unlike the US, there are very crowded subway systems that have metal detector at each turnstile and it can be made to work if push comes to shove. But it all depends on the actual threat level.

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As usual I agree with your analysis but with one exception. The NSA already has all of our emails and phone conversations on file. The FBI maintains a list of convicted felons. This list is available to firearms dealers nationwide. Point is they already know who the bad guys are. Make this existing data available to Amtrak and this will not inconvenience the law abiding traveler. In other words you can be checked without ever knowing it. Perhaps you have already been!.

As alluded to, the vast majority of air and ground transportation travelers are law abiding travelers whose only intent is to get to their destination.

That the American people allow the TSA to continue to exist, treating every law abiding traveler as a suspected terrorist, and making millions of law abiding people traverse the TSA gauntlet to board an airplane, is a tragedy.

So you believe only the Americans do this and no other country does it? Not that it makes it right, but this practice is not unique to the USA nor just to the TSA. This happened even before the TSA existed.

jis said:

So you believe only the Americans do this and no other country does it? Not that it makes it right, but this practice is not unique to the USA nor just to the TSA. This happened even before the TSA existed.

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All countries have Airport Security.

Some countries include some theater in the production.

TSA has perfected the process.

me_little_me said:

Amtrak has been taking these security measures for years:

They purposely run their trains late and at random times so the terrorists won't know when or if the train will arrive.

The insure that only the right people get through by the use of gate dragons.

They don't tell you what's in their meals so the terrorists don't know if they are eating prohibited food.

The coach attendants don't clean the restrooms to scare off terrorists.

They don't assign seats or cars to the coach passengers until the last minute to inhibit terrorist planning.

They suddenly and without warning institute bustitutions so as to be sure that nobody knows where or when they will be.

They raise the number of points required for a trip so terrorists can't use them when they want.

They suddenly decide to unstaff a station so terrorists can't blow up the baggage car with checked luggage and the terrorists, unused to US rail, have no idea what to do at the station as they vainly search for someone to give cash to for ticket.

Click to expand...

LOVE this post. Puts a different light on a lot of things: like maybe those gate dragons are actually highly trained anti-terrorism specialists. Maybe various Amtrak "bugs" are really anti-terrorist "features."

Or maybe this: Given that anything attributed to "anti-terror" efforts seems to get gobs of federal funding from the same Congress that perenially pinches Amtrak funding, might there be some way to play the anti-terror card so we can get full diners back on the Cardinal and City of New Orleans? Implement dining car menus that don't result in coast-to-coast indigestion? Maybe even improve the boarding process in Chicago?

jis said:

So you believe only the Americans do this and no other country does it? Not that it makes it right, but this practice is not unique to the USA nor just to the TSA. This happened even before the TSA existed.

Click to expand...

If you are trying to claim that Europe and most of the rest of world has airport "security" with the iron fist & draconian regime of the USA and their TSA then you are wrong on almost every level.

​Remember the US isn't the only country which has issues with terrorists and for most of us hasnt resulted in giving up all our civil liberties and privacy up like your good selves.