Increasing Service Between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh?

Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Jul 25, 2015
Messages
2,060
Location
Philadelphia Area
There was a meeting in Harrisburg of the PA House Transportation Committee this week. Amtrak and Norfolk Southern representatives were present.

http://www.post-gazette.com/local/region/2016/08/24/Transportation-Committee-debates-addition-of-train-service-between-Pittsburgh-and-Harrisburg/stories/201608230148

http://www.tribdem.com/news/local-leaders-make-pitch-for-more-train-routes-from-johnstown/article_9a484ba8-6941-11e6-99aa-ab640f33e792.html

Hopefully with Wick Moorman of NS coming in the negotiations can be smoothed out.
 
Personally, I would like to see a PA train, that better coordinates and matches up with the Capital's Pittsburg schedules.
The primary concern of PennDOT is unlikely to be the quality of connection with the Cap. They would be more concerned about serving the commuters and local users for service within PA.
 
Personally, I would like to see a PA train, that better coordinates and matches up with the Capital's Pittsburg schedules.
The primary concern of PennDOT is unlikely to be the quality of connection with the Cap. They would be more concerned about serving the commuters and local users for service within PA.
Amen to that. My daughter attended college in Huntingdon. The single departure of the Pennsylvanian is the only public transportation to service that town. When there was a threat to cancel the train, Juniata College was one of the leaders of the movement to keep it running, because they were concerned about the effect a lack of public transportation would have on their enrollment. I would think that folks out there would like a morning westbound departure to Pittsburgh in addition to the current 4pm departure.
 
As someone who travels between Pittsburgh and the tri-state area frequently, I would very much welcome it.
 
Amen to that. My daughter attended college in Huntingdon. The single departure of the Pennsylvanian is the only public transportation to service that town. When there was a threat to cancel the train, Juniata College was one of the leaders of the movement to keep it running, because they were concerned about the effect a lack of public transportation would have on their enrollment. I would think that folks out there would like a morning westbound departure to Pittsburgh in addition to the current 4pm departure.
That is exactly what I have heard. I believe that is why they are limiting themselves to talk about Harrisburg to Pittsburgh because you cannot really get an early enough morning train westbound unless you originate it a HBG or of course originate it further east at some ungodly hour. Similarly in the evening they want an eastbound that leaves PGH after office hours.

For a while they had a train called the Fort Pitt which did something like that and as I recall for a short period just ran upto Altoona in the east.
 
Unless you specifically want something designed for AM commuting into PGH (such as an early morning train from Altoona to Pitt) then I think you need to start it at PHL. I think starting it at HBG would eliminate too many potential passengers.

The first westbound Keystone of the day currently leaves PHL at 5:20 a.m., which-while early--is certainly a plausible departure time. It would leave HBG around 7:30 and reach PGH around 1 p.m., far in advance of the current Pennsylvanian and early enough to offer some utility to business travelers.
 
I think it would be preferable for a western Pennsylvanian to originate from NYP. Leaving during the morning rush hour would be out of the question. Would 7:30am work? You'd still be able to get into PGH before 5pm. If 7:30am isn't possible, how about 7:30am? With the earlier Pennsylvanian time, I would push 43 back two hours which would cut the gap between it and the CL as Charlie had suggested. The second eastbound could leave PGH around noon and arrive in NYP around 9:20pm.
 
I'm honestly not sold on this one. For better ridership one would like it to start in New York but that isn't possible without a really crappy departure time to give PGH service around noon. A thought I came up with is originate it in Boston which would give an overnight ride HAR to BOS on one seat. That or put a thru car in on 66/65
 
Overnight train from Boston (and NYC, though boarding would be *late* and arrival would be *early*) to Pittsburgh, onward in the daytime to Chicago. I don't really see anything else which makes sense for "commuting to Pittsburgh". A standalone commuter run to Pittsburgh is probably not viable. But if you build a schedule around the commuter run to Pittsburgh, you end up with a day train through Ohio and Indiana. Or, better, through Ohio and Michigan (the extra time works on this one). Which is actually a pretty reasonable concept.
 
I've always been in favor of an overnight train leaving PHL late at night and arriving at PGH early in the morning (overnight train) but the state of PA will never agree to pay for that schedule with most of central PA in the graveyard shift.
 
I've always been in favor of an overnight train leaving PHL late at night and arriving at PGH early in the morning (overnight train) but the state of PA will never agree to pay for that schedule with most of central PA in the graveyard shift.
They *just might* go for it if you pitched it as "get to Pittsburgh in the morning, leave Pittsburgh in the evening"...
 
Editorial from Tribune Democrat of Johnstown, PA

http://www.tribdem.com/news/editorials/norfolk-southern-holds-the-key-to-expanded-passenger-rail-service/article_cb4ebcec-0661-58b5-ab2b-1059085ce3a7.html?platform=hootsuite

"Currently, a morning train runs from Pittsburgh east through Johnstown, and an evening run takes riders west to the Steel City.

A proposal that is gaining steam calls for adding a morning run west and an evening run east, which would have multiple benefits for Johnstown, Altoona and other area communities."

"The key is Norfolk Southern, which makes numerous passes through Johnstown every day carrying goods to and from local manufacturers and other companies and moving on across the East Coast. Norfolk Southern has been a great partner for Johnstown on other projects, including the effort to resurface and light the Stone Bridge – which sees upwards of 40 trains cross its span each day. "

"The goal eventually is to connect the Pittsburgh-Harrisburg line with State College and Penn State to allow students and university visitors – including football fans – to get to that area directly by train, not an option currently."

Penn State would IMHO be an absolute game changer if they can do it. When I was at PSU, I drove down to Altoona to catch the Three Rivers. I think I parked my car there.
 
They should follow California's example and start with a Thruway bus from Harrisburg and Altoona timed to make convenient transfer to trains, Harrisburg with trains to Philly and Altoona with trains towards Pittsburgh.

It seems plausible that a rail route could be re-established from Altoona to State College and that could replace the Thruway Bus, by a connecting DMU service which could eventually extended to Pittsburgh or some such. As for direct link from Harrisburg to State College, I will believe it when I see someone come up with the money for it.
 
... a meeting in Harrisburg of the PA House Transportation Committee this week. Amtrak and Norfolk Southern representatives were present.

http://www.tribdem.com/news/local-leaders-make-pitch-for-more-train-routes-from-johnstown/article_9a484ba8-6941-11e6-99aa-ab640f33e792.html
An extensive study would need to be done – to determine the cost and impact of any expansion – according to Rudy Husband, a Norfolk Southern vice president of government affairs.

“From both a customer service and revenue standpoint, there is not a more important rail line within Norfolk Southern's 22-state network,” Husband said.

“And, because of that, we cannot look at this particular segment in a vacuum. The Pittsburgh-to-Harrisburg segment should be viewed as a bridge that connects shippers to the East Coast, the Midwest, to the Western and Canadian freight railroads and to hundreds of short lines. As such, any additional trains – whether passenger or freight – may have serious ramifications on other parts of our network. That's why a comprehensive operational feasibility study is absolutely critical.”
According to that nice article in the Johnstown Tribune Democrat, they say we'll need another study. Of course.

(My bold added to the quote in the article. -- Woody)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe a line to State College would need a new line built from scratch.
Yes from Harrisburg. From Altoona, there is an active, though not upto snuff for passenger usage, railroad to Lemont, adjacent to the State College campus, which could probably be revamped for a reasonable bill.It is a branch off of the Altoona/Tyrone to Lock Haven ex-PRR now NS line which is still active. The branch is a short line from Milesburg to Lemont via Bellefonte.
 
Lewistown is between Harrisburg and State College (right along US 322).
Yes, but a new ROW between Lewistown and State College is non-trivial new construction. There is a very good reason why PRR followed the Juniata River to Tyrone.

Can it be done? Of course. Given enough money anything can be done. Will the money be found? That is upto Pennsylvania.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
If half-century old past performance matters, State College's stub end made for unpopular passenger service and football traffic never materialized either.

I say that as an alum from before 99 existed too.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe a line to State College would need a new line built from scratch.
Yes from Harrisburg. From Altoona, there is an active, though not upto snuff for passenger usage, railroad to Lemont, adjacent to the State College campus, which could probably be revamped for a reasonable bill.It is a branch off of the Altoona/Tyrone to Lock Haven ex-PRR now NS line which is still active. The branch is a short line from Milesburg to Lemont via Bellefonte.
I know, I usually get shot down for daring to make such a suggestion, but I don't see anything wrong with initially using a freight rail line. This is a low cost startup, and would allow an actual "experiment" to test the viability of the service. It could be that the new passenger service is sold-out/packed on ten days a year (the days Penn State goes in and out of session), and virtually empty the other 355 days. Or not. That's the "experiment". If the "experiment" fails, the passenger service ends, and the rail line returns back to being used only for freight. No harm. No foul. If the "experiment" succeeds, then money could be sought, to upgrade the rail line to passenger service levels.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Lewistown is between Harrisburg and State College (right along US 322).
Yes, but a new ROW between Lewistown and State College is non-trivial new construction. There is a very good reason why PRR followed the Juniata River to Tyrone.
Can it be done? Of course. Given enough money anything can be done. Will the money be found? That is upto Pennsylvania.
It looks like it would require a 5-7 mile long tunnel under the Seven Mountains. That would rival the Cascade Tunnel or the Moffat Tunnel.

The current main highway, US Rt 322, can only get over those mountains with a big hairpin curve and a 6% grade. That's a 4 lane highway. They make the trucks stop at the top and get into low gear before starting down.
 
Interesting thread, it reminds me of the situation here in Texas where Bryan/College Station,with a Population of over 250,000, and home to Texas A&M University with 50,000+ Students, currently has no passenger Rail and only Very Limited Expensive Commuter Flights to Houston and Dallas.

It is located between two of the Nations Top 10 Population Centers, Houston (4) and the DFW Metroplex(7), and within 150 Miles of 2 more, San Antonio (6) and Austin(10).

Amtrak's Lone Star Houston Section used to stop nearby before political maneuvering during the Carter cuts in 1979 led to the Texas Eagle becoming the Chicago to Texas Rail Line.( and before that, Santa Fe's Texas Chief, Locals and "Football Specials" ran through here, with College Station actually getting it's name from its Rail Station!)

Various schemes come and go to reactivate Passenger service between Houston and the DFW Metroplex, but so far none of them has panned out!

Occasional "Specials" and Re-Routes have run through and stopped here in the past, but currently nothing is using the rails except UP Freight trains.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
If half-century old past performance matters, State College's stub end made for unpopular passenger service and football traffic never materialized either.
Well, the football traffic would be about 7 home games each year. That's much better suited to excursion-type service. You'd think someone would put together a train-to-game charter package from Philly and Pittsburgh, but that's a different discussion.

MegaBus offers a fairly aggressive schedule out of State College with frequent service to Harrisburg, Philly, Pittsburgh, New York and beyond. While it would be nice if there was train service to State College, it would seem as though the barriers are fairly high, with viable alternatives in place for the target demographic of college students. [Don't forget there's commercial air service to several hubs, too, for people that don't want to ride the bus.]

If PA really thought there was demand, there would be Thruway service from State College to Harrisburg connecting to Keystone trains. I'm guessing they've done the math and decided the demand just isn't there, despite the high on-campus population.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top