Amtrak. PHL-DEN The new Orient Express???

We already have our trip booked to Denver this year and needless to say it was not inexpensive.

Since we only take one long Amtrak LD trip per year we splurge for bedroom accommodations. We periodically check the fares to see if they have dropped so that we might save a bit so I just checked the fares today and was very surprised.

Here is what we came up.

PHL - CHI ( Cardinal)- CHI-DEN (CZ) going

DEN - CHI (CZ)) CHI-WAS (CL) WAS-PHL (NEC) returning

All the connections are done on the same day.Are you ready for the fare?

$3,518 That is an exorbitant price to pay to pay to go to and from Denver. Yes you do get a bed and a bath but still one has to wonder if the lower degree of service and the ever higher prices are a affordable anymore

It is obvious that the powers at Amtrak are starting to believe that their sleeper service is the new Orient Express. If it keeps going like this they are going to price themselves out of the market. With the lower price of fuel these days driving and staying in upscale hotels sounds like the better,more comfortable and less expensive option.

Wow! First Class Airfare ( or driving as you said) and a 5 Star Hotel might be worth a look @ those prices, that's Mountaineer and Cruise prices, definitely way too rich for most folks budgets!

Can we book Sam Bradford on that trip one way? And he HAS to take the Cardinal.

If enough people pay that price, it will remain high. If they don't, the prices will drop.

dlagrua said:

All the connections are done on the same day.

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This to me tends to indicate you are only using the Amtrak website to find those fares. Do yourself a financial favor and use AmSnag... http://biketrain.net/amsnag/amSnag.php ...to search out and plan your trip based on the lowest fares available during the time period of your trip - if possible. As an example, for travel during the month of August, 2016 the Bedroom upcharge on the CZ between CHI and DEN varies among the five possible buckets and ranges from $434 to $1059. The day you select to travel determines how much you pay.

Let AmSnag be your friend!

MikefromCrete said:

If enough people pay that price, it will remain high. If they don't, the prices will drop.

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This is exactly what I was thinking. If you think it is a ridiculous price, but you still pay for it, then the business in question (this applies to every business not just Amtrak) will assume that the price is not ridiculous. You can't buy it and expect them to change it, they won't see its wrong.

Bedrooms on the LSL have been insanely expensive for at least a decade. Roomettes are quite reasonable, though. Often you can get two roomettes for less than the price of a bedroom.

The previous post is absolutely correct. Think of a train with 3 viewliners having 36 roomettes 6 bedrooms 3 H B/R but 3 Superliners would be 39 roomettes 18 B/R (including family) 3 H B/R.

subtract rooms for obs other than SCA which were included above Bedrooms become very scarce on a VL not so fast on a SL

neroden said:

Bedrooms on the LSL have been insanely expensive for at least a decade.

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You mean since the TR was canceled, eliminating another NYP-CHI option forcing more passengers onto the LSL? Coincidence?

Philly Amtrak Fan said:

neroden said:

Bedrooms on the LSL have been insanely expensive for at least a decade.

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You mean since the TR was canceled, eliminating another NYP-CHI option forcing more passengers onto the LSL? Coincidence?

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It also seems to have occurred when a Congressional mandate to recover more costs since this type of service is considered a luxury land cruise was being tossed about! Coincidence?

MikefromCrete said:

If enough people pay that price, it will remain high. If they don't, the prices will drop.

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The most troubling aspect of these price increases is that while they continue to go up, service and amenities go down. Price is what you pay but value is what you get. We would never pay $3500 for a PHL-DEN DEN-PHL trip but if some passengers are paying luxury costs and receiving stark accommodations,one has to wonder. The supply and demand formula should work but at what point?

If it keeps going like this, we may have to adjust our trips around the peak demand months, use Amsnag more or start driving. A R/T fare of $3500 to DEN is far too expensive for us. There are so many more options that offer better value for a far lower cost that we may have to skip Amtrak on LD trips. Quite frankly I cannot believe that people are paying the sleeper prices on the Card, the LSL,CZ and wonder what the influence of the large tour operators like America by Rail has on this all. They must be getting a break for buying in bulk or they book all the low bucket rooms way out and when we book we are faced with top bucket prices.

At those prices, Amtrak will become profitable!!!

PVD said:

The previous post is absolutely correct. Think of a train with 3 viewliners having 36 roomettes 6 bedrooms 3 H B/R but 3 Superliners would be 39 roomettes 18 B/R (including family) 3 H B/R.

subtract rooms for obs other than SCA which were included above Bedrooms become very scarce on a VL not so fast on a SL

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The LSL has normally operated from NYP with 2 Viewliner sleepers, so the number of available bedrooms are even less: 4 plus 2 ADA bedrooms. IIRC, the OBS occupy 9 roomettes on the LSL, so number of available roomettes is quite limited as well.

When the Viewliner IIs sleepers and bag-dorms finally get delivered and enter revenue service, that should ease the steep peak prices on the LSL and Cardinal. Figuring both trains out of NYP will get a bag-dorm and an additional sleeper, the NYP section of the LSL should have 1 bag-dorm & 3 sleepers and the typical Cardinal should have 1 bag-dorm and 2 sleepers. The expansion in number of bedrooms will be modest, but the number of roomettes will increase considerably. That should lower roomette prices as Amtrak will have a lot more supply to sell which in turn should lower prices on the bedrooms as some who may otherwise book a bedroom may switch to roomettes if the roomettes are a lot less expensive.

There may be lower average prices for the roomettes and bedrooms on the LSL and Cardinal between NYP and CHI by the summer of 2017 (well, assuming CAF delivers all the Viewliner IIs by next Spring). But with the big expansion of the Denver RTD system in 2016 provding more transit options for both visitors and Denver metro region residents, Denver could become a busier market for the CZ. Which in turn would help nudge the CHI-DEN ticket prices up.

dlagrua said:

We already have our trip booked to Denver this year and needless to say it was not inexpensive.

Since we only take one long Amtrak LD trip per year we splurge for bedroom accommodations. We periodically check the fares to see if they have dropped so that we might save a bit so I just checked the fares today and was very surprised.

Here is what we came up.

PHL - CHI ( Cardinal)- CHI-DEN (CZ) going

DEN - CHI (CZ)) CHI-WAS (CL) WAS-PHL (NEC) returning

All the connections are done on the same day.Are you ready for the fare?

$3,518 That is an exorbitant price to pay to pay to go to and from Denver. Yes you do get a bed and a bath but still one has to wonder if the lower degree of service and the ever higher prices are a affordable anymore

It is obvious that the powers at Amtrak are starting to believe that their sleeper service is the new Orient Express. If it keeps going like this they are going to price themselves out of the market. With the lower price of fuel these days driving and staying in upscale hotels sounds like the better,more comfortable and less eThey xpensive option.

Click to expand...

They have not priced themselves out of the market if people are paying the price they are asking.

I called the LSL 3 because they have been hauling the former BOS sleeper up from NYP while the stub train operates. Usually it would be 2 from NYP and one added at ALB from BOS so it would still be 3 past Albany. Anxiously awaiting the extra capacity to come on line. A few times I've taken the CL and gotten a CL bedroom priced favorably to a LSL roomette.

There is so much speculation as to utilization of the new cars, A VL Cap Limited would free up extra SLs to add capacity for West of Chicago, daily Cardinal could help, at this point we can only guess (and hope).

CoachSlumber said:

They have not priced themselves out of the market if people are paying the price they are asking.

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What is the factual basis for this statement? Have you conducted a study and determined that all sleeper space on the mentioned trains is always sold out? From my checking on the Amtrak website yesterday there is still a good amount of space available on our chosen dates.

My statement was: IF it (the price increases) keep going like this, Amtrak is going to price themselves out of the market. Is the price I mentioned affordable to yourself? Unless you are affluent, you probably won't pay this price either.

dlagrua said:

CoachSlumber said:

They have not priced themselves out of the market if people are paying the price they are asking.

Click to expand...

What is the factual basis for this statement? Have you conducted a study and determined that all sleeper space on the mentioned trains is always sold out? From my checking on the Amtrak website yesterday there is still a good amount of space available on our chosen dates.My statement was: IF it (the price increases) keep going like this, Amtrak is going to price themselves out of the market. Is the price I mentioned affordable to yourself? Unless you are affluent, you probably won't pay this price either.

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In your original post you state that you have already booked your reservations. If so, what did you pay, and are you still going to take your trip?

First class airfare, and a room at a 5-star hotel, can support high prices because many times, these are paid by a business traveler's expense account. People paying out of their own pocket, likes those on vacation, go for coach airfare and a 2-star hotel (and book both using a promo code).

IMHO, that makes the $3518 Amtrak price tag even worse, because I doubt very many business travelers take a LD Amtrak train; at least not PHL to DEN. So, this fare level has to be supported by personal or vacation travel.

BTW, even notice that a 5-star hotel will charge $15 for WiFi, but at a 2-star hotel, its free? Again, many business travelers don't bat an eye over a $15 charge on their expense account.

Actually many business travelers don't have to fork out those extra charges because the company contract with hotel chains provide for much cheaper all inclusive rates. Only rack rate payers without any status in the hotel programs are generally stuck paying those charges.

Before continuing this debate, I urge you all to look at what Via Rail is charging on the Canadian. I am looking at around $3550 for a cabin for two (equivalent to a Viewliner roomette). Yes the diner provides better food service and you have the observation cars and onboard activities, but is it worth the price difference?

Oh...did I mention that the fare was for just one way? They also offer an even higher class with a room in the observation car for the paltry sum of over $6000, regardless of if you have one person or two. This fare offers no off-peak discounts. The regular sleeper fares use to, but it appears that's over.

Am I considering the higher class, even though it's a thought for our honeymoon? No. Am I going to put us in a sleeper for $3500? Yes, because that's how I want to travel, and I can afford it. If I thought it was pricey I would simply find another way. (Point in case...Going to fly Air Canada in Business Class one way, and take Via the other way, because I consider $7000 or up to $12000 to be a bit much roundtrip.)

Triley: VIA still offers special discount fares on the Canadian on Tuesday's, and usually they are offered into May.

As was discussed on this Forum the New Premium Sleeper exclusive use of the Park Car had been rolled back and all Sleeper Passengers receive the same privileges on the Canadian!

Also remember that if you are paying in Canadian Dollars you will receive a premium on the exchange rate since the Greenback has been strong for the past year!

Hopefully you can find a good fare that fits in with your schedule and congrats on the Honeymoon trip, we're envious.

Just for grins, here's the results of a comparison of tangibles between Amtrak's Empire Builder and Via Rail's Canadien (both one way) done last February when the exchange rate was US$1 = CAD1.26, for a Sleeper with toilet for two seniors:

Amtrak VIA Rail

Route Length 2205 mi 2275 mi

High Cost US$1967 US$2769

Low Cost US$831 US$2585

Elapsed Time 1.93 days 3.61 days

Cost per Mile $0.38 to $0.89 $0.93 to $1.00

Cost Per Day $431 to $1022 $716 to $767

Average Speed 47.6mph 32.0mph

And no, I don't feel like coming up with any updates.

dlagrua said:

What is the factual basis for this statement? Have you conducted a study and determined that all sleeper space on the mentioned trains is always sold out? From my checking on the Amtrak website yesterday there is still a good amount of space available on our chosen dates.

My statement was: IF it (the price increases) keep going like this, Amtrak is going to price themselves out of the market. Is the price I mentioned affordable to yourself? Unless you are affluent, you probably won't pay this price either.

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You've been singing the same tired tune for the 7 years you've been a member here. Over those 7 years, ridership and revenue have steadily increased. You also still seem to be riding.

Maybe this will be the year that you're finally correct! A stopped clock is correct twice a day, after all...

Ryan said:

You've been singing the same tired tune for the 7 years you've been a member here. Over those 7 years, ridership and revenue have steadily increased. You also still seem to be riding.

Maybe this will be the year that you're finally correct! A stopped clock is correct twice a day, after all...

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The real question is: is the recent drop in ridership just a blip or a new trend. When the subject comes up everyone refers to the law of supply and demand; and the consensus seems to be that the drop in demand is due to gas prices.

Is it possible that Amtrak revenue managers forgot that the law of supply and demand works both ways and suffer from that all too typical lack of an historical view, thinking that what goes up doesn't go down and vice versa. The law of supply and demand says prices rise when demand rises; but also says lower demand follow rising prices and reduced amenities.

I've noticed on the routes I've following that even during low season, Amtrak has been posting high room prices and then reducing them. This has to turn away some of those who believe the old mantra of book early to get the lowest price.