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Proposals for Restored Gulf Coast Service


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#181 west point

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Posted 17 June 2017 - 02:34 PM

Sanford station was destroyed by a hurricane that was listed as a station stop for restored service. We still have the problem what train)s are you going to rob the equipment ? You need more equipment either rebuilt wrecks or new !.

#182 A Voice

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Posted 17 June 2017 - 05:01 PM

Sanford station was destroyed by a hurricane that was listed as a station stop for restored service. We still have the problem what train)s are you going to rob the equipment ? You need more equipment either rebuilt wrecks or new !.

 

Amtrak has previously stated it has the equipment for a City of New Orleans extension to Orlando.  



#183 Anderson

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Posted 17 June 2017 - 10:57 PM

(1) I thought the ICC was abolished long ago?
(2) So, a practical question: Since NOL-ORL is only "suspended", what would the result be if the plan became to extend the CONO three days a week (in line with the old schedule)?  I do not like that, but technically there's a (suspended due to track damage) 3x weekly train on those tracks...so I do have to sincerely ask if Amtrak couldn't just say "Well, I guess negotiations broke down...so we're going to be running the old 3x weekly schedule starting on Day X."  The Sunset East did connect to the CONO and while the layover would be awkward I see no reason that the old Sunset East timetable couldn't just be slapped back into use (especially since the layover would be longer this time).  Don't get me wrong, I like a daily train and I'd like to see a more efficient schedule, but in this specific case I think CSX has (albeit due to a management dispute) basically acted in bad faith.

Again, I've always been under the impression that Amtrak has had the ability to restore the Sunset East with relative ease and that if CSX refused to let them back on they probably wouldn't have much of a leg to stand on (else what's been the point of the fig leaf line on the map all these years)...the reluctance to restore the train was always Amtrak's reluctance, after all.


Capitol Limited (7), CA Zephyr (4) Lake Shore Limited (1), Acela (2), NE Regional (2), Sliver Meteor (4)

Upcoming: Silver Meteor (1), Lake Shore Limited (1), SW Chief (2), MO River Runner (1), Texas Eagle (1)

Possibly Upcoming: Either Texas Eagle (1), Capitol Limited (1), Silver Meteor (2) or Texas Eagle (1), Capitol Limited (1), Silver Meteor (1)

#184 Green Maned Lion

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 09:39 AM

Not true, because CSX would argue that a 12 year suspension due to track conditions is de facto a service discontinuation, and any first year bar member could deliver that with adequate conviction.
Travelled: Broadway Limited (1), Lake Shore Limited (6), Capitol Limited (7), Empire Builder (1), Southwest Chief (2), Sunset Limited (1), California Zephyr (3), Coast Starlight (2), Silver Meteor (5), Silver Star (5), Silver Palm (2), Crescent (1), Cardinal (4), Auto Train (4), Pennsylvanian (2), Palmetto (1), Acela Express (1), Empire Service (1), Northeast Regional (11), Keystone Service (1) --- Total Miles: 50,144 --- Total Trains: 61
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#185 A Voice

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 02:19 PM

(1) I thought the ICC was abolished long ago?
(2) So, a practical question: Since NOL-ORL is only "suspended", what would the result be if the plan became to extend the CONO three days a week (in line with the old schedule)?  I do not like that, but technically there's a (suspended due to track damage) 3x weekly train on those tracks...so I do have to sincerely ask if Amtrak couldn't just say "Well, I guess negotiations broke down...so we're going to be running the old 3x weekly schedule starting on Day X."  The Sunset East did connect to the CONO and while the layover would be awkward I see no reason that the old Sunset East timetable couldn't just be slapped back into use (especially since the layover would be longer this time).  Don't get me wrong, I like a daily train and I'd like to see a more efficient schedule, but in this specific case I think CSX has (albeit due to a management dispute) basically acted in bad faith.

Again, I've always been under the impression that Amtrak has had the ability to restore the Sunset East with relative ease and that if CSX refused to let them back on they probably wouldn't have much of a leg to stand on (else what's been the point of the fig leaf line on the map all these years)...the reluctance to restore the train was always Amtrak's reluctance, after all.

 

Not true, because CSX would argue that a 12 year suspension due to track conditions is de facto a service discontinuation, and any first year bar member could deliver that with adequate conviction.

 

It is in neither Amtrak's nor CSX's best interest for disputes such as this to be settled in a court of law or by regulatory edict, that much is certain (potentially, they have too much to lose).  



#186 west point

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 03:24 PM

Amtrak has previously stated it has the equipment for a City of New Orleans extension to Orlando


That statement may have been made but by whom ? Boardman ? If Amtrak takes equipment for this extension we need to look at possible consequences. Face it the present equipment has some age. It is going to take more shop time to keep them in top condition. If the equipment does not get proper care there will be more complaints that such and such car is crummy. Those statements are already prevalent on many forums. Another thing to consider is the inability for Amtrak to surge its capacity very much during high travel times. Many posts over the years mention how the legacy RRs brought out older equipment during rush periods.

This gets us to the problem of equipment. Tell your congress critter Amtrak needs more equipment.

FYI----- The airline industry does not have as high percentage availability of equipment.

Edited by west point, 18 June 2017 - 03:26 PM.


#187 railbuck

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 06:56 PM

 

Amtrak has previously stated it has the equipment for a City of New Orleans extension to Orlando

That statement may have been made but by whom ? Boardman ?

 

 

Equally important is *when* the statement was made.  At the time, I believe the NS bilevel order would still have been in play and may have been factored in.



#188 west point

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 07:24 PM

Amtrak has previously stated it has the equipment for a City of New Orleans extension to Orlando

That statement may have been made but by whom ? Boardman ?

 
Equally important is *when* the statement was made.  At the time, I believe the NS bilevel order would still have been in play and may have been factored in.


Wish I had said that, Very good point! The old / new equipment bug a boo. Amtrak may have been planning for expansion of several routes and trains based on the N-S bi level order. If the order had been proceeding on time would they have been already certified for 125 running and being delivered about 2 a week ? They would also have taken pressure off the single level fleet.

#189 Anderson

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 01:40 AM

I wonder where we are in terms of slack in the Superliner sleeper fleet, since that's a pretty near to immutable constraint at the moment.  I think some equipment was freed by the shuffling of the Sunset Limited's timetable, but the CONO running CHI-NOL is about an 18:30 train while presuming the 2005 timetable were to prevail east of there (roughly 21 hours) the total run would be somewhere in the range of 40-42 hours (depending on padding at NOL, negotiations with CSX, etc.).  That means five sets.  Of course, if one set were freed by the Sunset East then Amtrak might be able to cobble together a second set from the slack they were able to use as an extra set when the Builder went to pieces, that would do it...but that sure feels like it's cutting it close.


Capitol Limited (7), CA Zephyr (4) Lake Shore Limited (1), Acela (2), NE Regional (2), Sliver Meteor (4)

Upcoming: Silver Meteor (1), Lake Shore Limited (1), SW Chief (2), MO River Runner (1), Texas Eagle (1)

Possibly Upcoming: Either Texas Eagle (1), Capitol Limited (1), Silver Meteor (2) or Texas Eagle (1), Capitol Limited (1), Silver Meteor (1)

#190 Don Newcomb

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 07:11 AM

Not true, because CSX would argue that a 12 year suspension due to track conditions is de facto a service discontinuation, and any first year bar member could deliver that with adequate conviction.

 

At the time, Amtrak was all too happy to just let that route die and blame it on Katrina. Big mistake. 



#191 CCC1007

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 11:03 AM

I wonder where we are in terms of slack in the Superliner sleeper fleet, since that's a pretty near to immutable constraint at the moment.  I think some equipment was freed by the shuffling of the Sunset Limited's timetable, but the CONO running CHI-NOL is about an 18:30 train while presuming the 2005 timetable were to prevail east of there (roughly 21 hours) the total run would be somewhere in the range of 40-42 hours (depending on padding at NOL, negotiations with CSX, etc.).  That means five sets.  Of course, if one set were freed by the Sunset East then Amtrak might be able to cobble together a second set from the slack they were able to use as an extra set when the Builder went to pieces, that would do it...but that sure feels like it's cutting it close.

40-42 hours equates to four sets to me, with 12-16 hours of turnaround time to share between Orlando and Chicago.

#192 jis

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 11:40 AM

 

I wonder where we are in terms of slack in the Superliner sleeper fleet, since that's a pretty near to immutable constraint at the moment.  I think some equipment was freed by the shuffling of the Sunset Limited's timetable, but the CONO running CHI-NOL is about an 18:30 train while presuming the 2005 timetable were to prevail east of there (roughly 21 hours) the total run would be somewhere in the range of 40-42 hours (depending on padding at NOL, negotiations with CSX, etc.).  That means five sets.  Of course, if one set were freed by the Sunset East then Amtrak might be able to cobble together a second set from the slack they were able to use as an extra set when the Builder went to pieces, that would do it...but that sure feels like it's cutting it close.

40-42 hours equates to four sets to me, with 12-16 hours of turnaround time to share between Orlando and Chicago.

 

Instead orf randomly speculating I would like to draw your attention to the detailed analysis already done by Amtrak on page 22-23 of http://static1.squar...Report 2015.pdf

 

In particular, the proposal is not to run the entire NOL consist all the way to Orlando, but to run a shorter train beyond NOL.The proposal is to run one Coach, one Coach-Baggage, one sleeper and one CCC with one P42 from NOL to ORL 5 such consists are required. which means in effect two additional consists for this shorter train will be required over and above what is already allocated for the three consists used for the CONO. See the table on page 23 for the incremental requirement,



#193 Anderson

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 02:08 PM

Interesting...the timetable is 42 hours westbound but only 38 hours eastbound.  However, I can't find the "extra" hours.


Capitol Limited (7), CA Zephyr (4) Lake Shore Limited (1), Acela (2), NE Regional (2), Sliver Meteor (4)

Upcoming: Silver Meteor (1), Lake Shore Limited (1), SW Chief (2), MO River Runner (1), Texas Eagle (1)

Possibly Upcoming: Either Texas Eagle (1), Capitol Limited (1), Silver Meteor (2) or Texas Eagle (1), Capitol Limited (1), Silver Meteor (1)

#194 jis

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 02:18 PM

Interesting...the timetable is 42 hours westbound but only 38 hours eastbound.  However, I can't find the "extra" hours.

It is in the dwell time at New Orleans.



#195 Anderson

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 04:57 PM

...I have no idea how I missed that.  There's also some dwell time at Tallahassee the other way (as far as I can tell) to try and give Tallahassee at least passable times (neither 2310 nor 0500 are great, but at least they're not completely "in the hole" a la CIN).


Capitol Limited (7), CA Zephyr (4) Lake Shore Limited (1), Acela (2), NE Regional (2), Sliver Meteor (4)

Upcoming: Silver Meteor (1), Lake Shore Limited (1), SW Chief (2), MO River Runner (1), Texas Eagle (1)

Possibly Upcoming: Either Texas Eagle (1), Capitol Limited (1), Silver Meteor (2) or Texas Eagle (1), Capitol Limited (1), Silver Meteor (1)

#196 John Bobinyec

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 07:08 AM

CSX's rebuttal. 

 

I'm wondering whether the installation of PTC should be included in the estimates of necessary investment.  If there remains no passenger service from New Orleans to Florida, would it be necessary for CSX to install PTC on that line anyway?

 

jb


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Old: Phoebe Snow (EL), Montrealer (AT), Laurentian (D&H)

RBBB: St. Petersburg - W. Palm Beach, Lakeland - Atlanta, Baltimore - NYC, Rochester, NY - Hartford, Albuquerque - Salt Lake City, Denver - Chicago

Modern: Ocean (VIA), Silver Star, Capitol Limited, Texas Eagle, Autotrain, Carolinian, Southwest Chief, California Zephyr, Lake Shore Limited

 


#197 RPC

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 07:59 AM

If CSX wants to send hazmat (including crude oil) that way, PTC is required by end of 2018. (And this is the east end of the Chemical Coast we're discussing!)  I suspect they see an opportunity to have someone else pay for the installation.



#198 MikefromCrete

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 08:45 AM

You got to remember that CSX needs to find the  $80 million it has to pay to Hunter Harrison and his Wall Street buddies to "compensate" him for his move from CP that nobody requested but Hunter and his buddies. 



#199 John Bobinyec

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 08:50 AM

If CSX wants to send hazmat (including crude oil) that way, PTC is required by end of 2018. (And this is the east end of the Chemical Coast we're discussing!)  I suspect they see an opportunity to have someone else pay for the installation.

Perhaps the reestablishment of passenger service on the line will have to wait until after CSX has installed PTC there.

 

jb


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Old: Phoebe Snow (EL), Montrealer (AT), Laurentian (D&H)

RBBB: St. Petersburg - W. Palm Beach, Lakeland - Atlanta, Baltimore - NYC, Rochester, NY - Hartford, Albuquerque - Salt Lake City, Denver - Chicago

Modern: Ocean (VIA), Silver Star, Capitol Limited, Texas Eagle, Autotrain, Carolinian, Southwest Chief, California Zephyr, Lake Shore Limited

 


#200 west point

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 09:50 AM

Several different posts have mentioned that CSX has or is planning to route all New Orleans - JAX haz mat traffic from Mobile - Montgomery - LaGrange - Manchester - Jacksonville. now whether that will or is ever going to happen ??? Now as to how intermediate Haz Mat traffic will be handled is problematic.




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